Milestone 4 Balance & Feedback thead!

[skaianDestiny]

On 7/21/2024 at 2:47 AM, Skitso said:

This isn't stuff for balance thread, but damn the Gemini interceptor is fugly. Looks like a carnival themed bat wing. Really disappointed that the ultimate interceptor looks like a plastic toy rather than something futuristic, yet believably militaristic. Please bring Marauder design back from the Xenonauts 1.

For comparisons sake: Xenonauts 1 Marauder vs. Xenonauts 2 Gemini

Going back to this criticism, I was wondering if the Gemini would look more palatable if it had a different color scheme than bright saturated reddish pink, so I did some dirty image editing and honestly, yeah it does.

Even desaturated red feels better, though I prefer the grey and blue ones more.

I think the reason those colors work better is because they feel more "realistic", meaning the wilder alien shape of the Gemini feels more grounded and fit more with the established aesthetic of Xenonauts 2. One of the reasons the Xeno1 Marauder gets away with its color scheme is that it's more desaturated and also has a more "realistic" design. With the wilder shape of the Gemini, having a more down-to-Earth color scheme is needed to keep it from looking too toy-like.

[Skitso]

3 hours ago, skaianDestiny said:

Going back to this criticism, I was wondering if the Gemini would look more palatable if it had a different color scheme than bright saturated reddish pink, so I did some dirty image editing and honestly, yeah it does.

Even desaturated red feels better, though I prefer the grey and blue ones more.

I think the reason those colors work better is because they feel more "realistic", meaning the wilder alien shape of the Gemini feels more grounded and fit more with the established aesthetic of Xenonauts 2. One of the reasons the Xeno1 Marauder gets away with its color scheme is that it's more desaturated and also has a more "realistic" design. With the wilder shape of the Gemini, having a more down-to-Earth color scheme is needed to keep it from looking too toy-like.

Yes, I tested similar color edits on my end too, and while it does indeed look better, I'm afraid it still looks too goofy to be taken seriously.

[Xeferah]

For feedback on missions: Abduction missions should become harder later in the game. I just had an abduction mission on commander (-1 turn) where there were only 15 enemies. I can bring 12 at the moment, and I heard I can bring 16 with the final chopper. That's not hard at all anymore!
Also, I do miss variety in missions from let's say day 120-150? Basically you get mostly downed UFO's and a very rare terror or abduction mission (once a month or so?). I do think there needs to be a bit more variation in this later on in the game.

Second, I don't know if this is a bug or intended, but on Commander I cannot see how much damage I do with shots, but I can see how much stun and EMP damage I do. Is this a bug? If it's a feature, that makes Commander too easy and it should be removed.

[Xeferah]

A suggestion: every month, add one more alien to the missions. ALL missions. So after day 180, there are +6 aliens to deal with, and +8 after day 240. We can even say that it starts only after 60 days or so, so we'll be at +5 after 180 days. But currently, something like 15 aliens spread out over a full map while I can bring 16 soldiers concentrated in one location? Of course that's not a challenge, not even on Commander.
Sure, the enemies become stronger, but so do you: you get better soldiers, better defence, better offence AND more soldiers to bring to the field. It's a bit too easy with 16 soldiers fully decked out if the aliens don't get any kind of advantage.

Or perhaps increase the chance to throw grenades with each passing month: wounded soldiers can be killing for a campaign.
Perhaps add poison gas to the game, which dramatically reduces the healing recovery time?

Reapers need to be more terrifying. Sure, they hurt when they get close, but they never get close enough to attack. Perhaps add more movement speed to them? Reapers need to be like "Oh shit, full fire on that unit!"

[Komandos]

13 hours ago, Xeferah said:

A suggestion: every month, add one more alien to the missions. ALL missions. So after day 180, there are +6 aliens to deal with, and +8 after day 240. We can even say that it starts only after 60 days or so, so we'll be at +5 after 180 days. But currently, something like 15 aliens spread out over a full map while I can bring 16 soldiers concentrated in one location? Of course that's not a challenge, not even on Commander.
Sure, the enemies become stronger, but so do you: you get better soldiers, better defence, better offence AND more soldiers to bring to the field. It's a bit too easy with 16 soldiers fully decked out if the aliens don't get any kind of advantage.

If the player has progress in development, and the aliens do not have progress in development, then naturally the player's victory over the aliens becomes easier.

I consider it a violation of the balance if the player has progress in the number of soldiers on the battlefield, and the aliens do not have this progress.

I also believe that for the game it is necessary that the study of transport with a large number of soldiers becomes available for research only after the appearance of UFOs with a large number of soldiers.

[Xeferah]

9 hours ago, Komandos said:

I also believe that for the game it is necessary that the study of transport with a large number of soldiers becomes available for research only after the appearance of UFOs with a large number of soldiers.

Sounds like a fair compromise: increase the number of aliens in jumps. That way you can even differentiate between the different difficulties.

[Twigg]

There has to be a better way to ramp up difficulty than throwing more enemies at the player. Not only does it make missions significantly longer, it also increases the likelihood that a large portion of the battle will happen right outside the dropship.

 

These games are always more interesting in the beginning than in the end and a large reason for that is that a small force of humans vs a small force of aliens makes for a more tactically interesting and well paced mission.

[ih8california]

On 8/8/2024 at 4:05 PM, Xeferah said:

For feedback on missions: Abduction missions should become harder later in the game. I just had an abduction mission on commander (-1 turn) where there were only 15 enemies. I can bring 12 at the moment, and I heard I can bring 16 with the final chopper. That's not hard at all anymore!
Also, I do miss variety in missions from let's say day 120-150? Basically you get mostly downed UFO's and a very rare terror or abduction mission (once a month or so?). I do think there needs to be a bit more variation in this later on in the game.

Late-game terror and base assaults have 25+ aliens (on commander). I'd prefer that every ground mission not take over an hour to complete and if you are playing optimally, some missions SHOULD feel easy (especially after you hit a power spike in gear/weapons). 

[Skitso]

I agree the game starts to get too easy when you get the final landing ship and 16 units. Even 12 is a lot. I'm not sure I want to have dynamic alien numbers @Xeferah proposed above, but larger UFOs certainly need a lot more aliens to keep the challenge levels high enough. I think part of the issue is that the game doesn't require me to adapt and learn new tactics to survive. I can keep playing almost exactly the same way from mission one to all the way through the game. This not only makes the game too easy, but unfortunately also too repetitive and - dare I say - a tad boring going through the mid-game.

Enemies are the same, they use same AI routines, tactics and weapons (only numbers get higher) through out the game, mission objectives stay the same, and the game only scales it's numbers up. Levels and UFOs get larger, there's more aliens with more health that cause more damage. Meanwhile I also get more units that have more health and cause more damage, so in the long run, everything stays pretty much the same. Even the maps are pretty homogenous layout wise regardless of the biome or how far in the game you are. In X1 each biome felt more distinct with their own unique traits. (Some being very open while some were really cramped etc.)

To up the stakes, aliens need more than just higher numbers. They need new weapons (burst, aoe, incediary, poison, wall penetrating, long range grenades, slow seeker missiles etc.) new tactics and AI with new tricks and special skills (psi, flying, teleporting etc.) to really force me to adapt my playstyle and to keep me on my toes. Currently I alresdy know pretty much what to expect, even when I raid a new UFO class or meet a new enemy type.

@Chris, this is important to get right.

 

EDIT: I agree Reapers are good for nothing and not scary at all.

Edited August 12, 2024 by Skitso

[ih8california]

Regarding the gemini: i wasn't a huge fan of it at first (since the maurader design slaps so hard), but it has grown on me; my main criticism of the gemini (but do agree that some of those suggested colors are better) is that that it doesn't feel like much of an upgrade over the phantom considering the investment required. The fact that its evasive combat roll cooldown is the same as the angel is comical. I would like to see this changed for both the phantom and gemini (phantom having lower cooldown than angel and gemini lower than the phantom) along with a small buff to weight capacity.

[Skitso]

Mantids are by far the easiest alien race to fight against. I wouldn't buff their stats, but maybe add few more of them in every crew to balance it out? Sebillian are also a tad too easy. Wraiths still feel tougher than the rest.

[Mistole]

Impressions(mostly similar to others):
AI sometimes too agressive, just charges you, instead of waiting in a good position to overwatch.

There is this one map, with containers and a river.
The same map can range from extremely easy, when you get tanks, to extremely difficult when it's just wraiths and andron. The wraiths shoot you to pieces across the river, the tanks stay in a building and are easily dispatched.

The shotgun doesn't need a nerf really, just tweaking. It is still extremely limited in range, making it... not the best option.
Perhaps this could be handled in a different way.
Reduce shotgun damage by 20%, but increase range by 1, with the usual falloff.
Then let the shotgun apply suppresion to everything, even 2-3 tiles past it's maximum range.  This way the shotgun would be less OP in close quarters, but still somewhat useful at a slightly longer range.

All melee weapons need a boost. The knife is nigh useless. Stun baton has such a low accuracy and takes way too much TU. Reduce the TU for it by half and increase hit change by 20%. You still have to close that range, suppress first etc.

Cleaner missions should show up even after the main cleaner base has been destroyed. This would provide variety. Something like destroying local cleaner cells. Aliens should still be able to control these even when the main base is gone.

I heard of the convoy ambush mission from a friend that plays, but never actually got it in my playthrough.
Maybe have more of those ambush missions for variety.

Create more regions, these are too few: Western Europe, Eastern Europe, Noth Africa, Southern Africa, North America, Central America and Carribean, South America, North Asia, Far East Asia, South and Southeast Asian, Australia and New Zealand. 11 regions instead of 6. Then reduce funding per region by 25%, this will give an overall increase in funding, and change lose conditions to 3 regions out of 11(maybe set it to 4 on lower difficulty).

We could use a decent defense mission, other than base defense.
Such as defending a position until a cache of weapons or personell are evacuated. Make it a timed 6-7 turn mission, where the aliens will get reinforcements every 1-2 turns, A "kill them before they overwhelm you type of mission"
 

Please fix the bloody grenadier and the grenade launcher. Far far too often he shoots his own foot even with a 89% chance.

The Aliens should have control over their own craft doors. It's way to cheesy to walk up to the door, if it's open you can close it. The door can be opened, stun grenades thrown, and close again. This forces the aliens to slowly walk toward you without ever firing a shot, dieing too easily when you open it again next turn. This is the perfect opportunity for that C4/claymores to actually be useful and functional. Blow the door and have a real breach.

Smoke almost loses it's purpose late game, it needs a rework tbh, Needs to upgrade along with the other grenade types.

Training centers are too expensive, starting base should start with one by default, at least on lower difficulties.

We also need a tooltip/menu showing how much progress easy soldier is making in each stat, this way it's hard to gauge the actual gains at first. Such as : Strenght 61 - progress 67/100 toward next level.

Should be able to designate a squad leader for your soldiers... then if he dies/downed everyone loses 30-50 morale.

hardpoints on craft are very very limiting, basically forcing you into a single most efficient build and no specialization.

Prices should reset towards their base value on a monthly basis.

maintenance for buildings, soldiers and other personell is murder. So much so that it's causing the opposite effect, forcing you to create tons of workshops and hiring engineers, just so they can create cash. Lower cash gain from scientists and engineers by 10%, but then also reduce all maintenance costs by 20-25%.

It would be cool to have a mission where the captured aliens you sold on the black market got lose on some rich guys island and you have to clean up the mess.

base defense: the invading aliens should be able to free the captured ones if you are keeping any in your base.

Obduction missions should have less wraiths and no androns, more mantids and lizards (I always forget how those are called... sebilians? sebtilians? just lizards). Otherwise it becomes impossible to run across the map in most cases.

As is, fusion stuff is too strong, but I'm guessing we will be getting stronger enemies down the line, If we do, then that would make sense, otherwise, nerf by 5% dmg.

Should be able to sell aliens weapons you produce for way more money initially, with a bigger falloff the more you sell than currently, and that price should not reset. Sort of a small reward if you do lots of missions and have stuff to sell, or get some moniez for selling outdated tech.

Base structures etc being sold at 50% refund is fine, but aircraft should get you more, maybe 75-80% of the build cost. After all, this is cutting edge tech, and specialized.
Not to mention that modernizing you aircraft rn slows you down to an extreme margin.

Haven't yet played through on higher difficulties, will leave any other feedback when I do.

[Rakiii]

I think 16 troops on the final ship is a bit too much. It takes too much time to control them.

I prefer lower amount of troops / enemies and shorter games.

I would nerf number of troops to 8-10-12.

Same for aliens. I prefer smaller amount of stronger enemies than plenty of weaker ones.

I also think enemies need more variety in tactics and weapons late game.

They gets upgrade in health and damage but there should be more.

Btw I play on Commander.

Edited August 14, 2024 by Rakiii

[Ruggerman]

If you think that being 16 troops to the final mission is too much, then don't bring them, you can bring any number up to the capacity of the ship...!!

[Skitso]

4 hours ago, Ruggerman said:

If you think that being 16 troops to the final mission is too much, then don't bring them, you can bring any number up to the capacity of the ship...!!

That's not a correct way to address someone's issues with the game. Bringing less than a full squad is not something the game and difficulty levels are balanced for, so you would purposefully gimp yourself. I think it's a valid point that someone might feel 16 units is too much for a squad tactics game.

[Komandos]

On 8/12/2024 at 6:00 PM, Twigg said:

There has to be a better way to ramp up difficulty than throwing more enemies at the player. Not only does it make missions significantly longer, it also increases the likelihood that a large portion of the battle will happen right outside the dropship.

To increase the difficulty, we have already tried to increase the accuracy of the aliens, increase the armor of the aliens and other characteristics of the aliens. But players complained that the aliens were getting too strong, and in the new versions of the game, the aliens were weakened again.

How else can you increase the power of aliens without increasing their characteristics? Only by increasing the number of aliens.

[Skitso]

1 hour ago, Komandos said:

To increase the difficulty, we have already tried to increase the accuracy of the aliens, increase the armor of the aliens and other characteristics of the aliens. But players complained that the aliens were getting too strong, and in the new versions of the game, the aliens were weakened again.

How else can you increase the power of aliens without increasing their characteristics? Only by increasing the number of aliens.

Making them more intelligent, giving them better and more varied tactics, surprising new special powers and weapons that are not just same old with bigger numbers... make them evolve as the game progresses and really challenge player to adapt.

[TrashMan]

Personally, I' don't like the look of that aircraft. But it's easy enough to mod I guess.

 

I recall in Xenonauts 1 I added more aircraft with somewhat different stats, so there was more choice. For example, at start you could choose to build a modified MIG or a modified F-14 and it felt much better.

[gG-Unknown]

9 hours ago, Ruggerman said:

If you think that being 16 troops to the final mission is too much, then don't bring them, you can bring any number up to the capacity of the ship...!!

The Final mission can use even 20 soldiers, becouse it is UNIQUE which add excitements.

Standard missions need to use digestible amount of soldiers 8 / 10 / 12 is ok .  Eveen lower is possible 6 / 8 / 10 

This will keep lenght of one round under  10 minutes.

Edited August 15, 2024 by gG-Unknown

[TrashMan]

17 minutes ago, Skitso said:

Making them more intelligent, giving them better and more varied tactics, surprising new special powers and weapons that are not just same old with bigger numbers... make them evolve as the game progresses and really challenge player to adapt.

 

Unfortunately Xenonauts2 suffers from the same problem as Xenonauts1 - stale progression. All weapons are mechanically the same. You'd think laser weapons would behave different than projectiles, but they don't. It's boring, predictable "Tier 2 is just tier1 weapon with + damage and a different icon". It's even worse that every tier has the same weapons.

 

How cool would it be if lasers acted like lasers (highly accurate and long ranged, but damage falls off with range, smoke greatly reducing damage) OR perhaps damage depending on TU's spent?

[Skitso]

28 minutes ago, TrashMan said:

 

Unfortunately Xenonauts2 suffers from the same problem as Xenonauts1 - stale progression. All weapons are mechanically the same.

This. I was stoked to see the Cyberdrone for the first time, just to be let down when this huge floating tank just shot a single plasma bullet only to miss it's target. I was expecting for it to lob poison grenades, shoot with a huge AOE cannon or massive laser that penetrates walls, generate flame walls around it or something. But no. Just a single projectile with more damage. Just like all the other enemies in the game.

[gG-Unknown]

9 hours ago, TrashMan said:

How cool would it be if lasers acted like lasers (highly accurate and long ranged, but damage falls off with range, smoke greatly reducing damage) OR perhaps damage depending on TU's spent?

 

Damage should falls of with range, agree.

Therfore, Lasers are short range weapons.

[harrison314a]

I play on easy or normal difficulty, due to lack of time.

I got stuck on the first Terror site mission, the shift in difficulty is extreme. Already in the second round I had half the soldiers dead or in panic. I even had a Wraith throw a grenade directly into the helicopter.

[Alienkiller]

I like the alreday integrated Interceptors from Xenonauts 2.

But I give you all right, that they are to less. If I remember me correctly, there are in Xenonauts 2 at the Moment 3 (X-17 from the famous Mig-17-Design, the 2nd Interceptor and the third Interceptor "Gemeni"). 2 or 3 more would give the Game more Pepper.

An very cool Thing in UFO 2 ET "Battle for Mercury" is, that the Devs have integrated Highspeed-Helicopters with a long Range. I call them Airwolfs like in the famous Series. Eventually such an special Aircraft could brought in Xenonauts 2 too.

[gG-Unknown]

Small but annoying thing :

On the end of round  camera  position shows my soldiers, press turn.

enemy and friendly round pass so camera moves accordingly.

On the start  of the new round camera is in random  position.

 In current situation, the first  task of  EACH TURN is : "move your camera and find your  troops."

MAKE A FIX : New round ALWAYS starts looking at the spot as you did when you pressed "End turn" button.

 

Edited August 16, 2024 by gG-Unknown