Milestone 4 Balance & Feedback thead!

[Skitso]

3 hours ago, kyu bey said:

Are you playing on higher difficulty / something (/ game just hates you)?

I only got a little bit of mantid(?) (the brown small alien), a few melee & mostly croc(?) that regen health with plasma.

I play on veteran. Mantid/sebillian is also the easiest combo. It also depends a lot on what map you happen to get.

Edited July 14, 2024 by Skitso

[Conductiv]

3 hours ago, Skitso said:

-alien plasma and fusion rifles don't have burst fire options I think, not that they really need it as those weapons are plenty deadly as is. Some enemies using burst or AOE weapons would make the game more interesting and varied. Balancing the difficulty around it is another thing.

aliens don't ever kneel unless suppressed. how the aliens routine doesn't use it, as they generally move for about half their TU and then stand still in order to still have enough to react, and if a players soldier or neutral trooper is in their range when they have full TU they simply blow everything on attacks or chuck a grenade. they could crouch making them slightly harder to hit and them slightly more accurate, but other then that..I barely see any merit in it. Well, I crouch my units all the time. It's silly AI can't use the same tools to make optimal play. I just had Aliens adjacent to each other shoot the back of his friend two times in a row. Amusing, but stupid. "Slightly more accurate and harder to hit". Funny you downplay it... Isn't that pretty much the whole point of the tactical part of this game. To be as hard to hit and shoot enemies as accurately as possible?

-corner camp death corridors, you sure you want that? its probably easy enough for chris to change the number of aliens that go from their offensive routine to a defensive one. but the result is likely going to be aliens hugging the corners of the UFO and point blanking your troops with reaction fire or creating a plasma grenade surprise. more aliens also increase threat, but can be equally devastating as even now high end UFO's can have a couple of dozen aliens in it.   I would gladly welcome a more defensive and campy AI routines every once in a while. I've seen enough crash sites where I have 10+ aliens facing my Skyranger the second I step out of it. And on the other hand, empty UFO's are a real mood killer.

-varied alien weapons could be a thing, shotguns, SMG's and more servitor machinegun like tools would be good additions, the servitor MG version with its high suppression value would be a real pain in the rear end. I would pick these rather then heavy MG, grenade launchers, cannons or rifle bursts because of the extreme lethality the latter would have. personally..I feel you want some RNG as to make things not completely predictable, but you also want some tactical certainty..like not being instantly killed from halfway across the map by a plasma burst that happened to hit 2 shots. shotguns with very short ranges at least have some counterplay..despite the extreme lethality they have. with these things survivable in the heavy armors, it would make it even harder to promote not pressing that "heavy armor" button in the loadout screen

about the downplay, its a +10%/-10% multiplicative bonus and it is fairly impactful, a player being hit by wraiths would go from 56 to 61% through 40% cover, while the accuracy needed for a player to hit would go up. so you are right the effect is not to be downplayed. but other then aliens move squatting their way through the map, would this change gameplay much? how much would you fiddle with the routine as to get a satisfactory crouch to stand ratio. that is where I don't see much change, it wouldn't actually do much in how you approach the alien. Now aliens avoiding friendly fire would be a thing as it would make the game feel more serious, however aliens being reckless gun-ho characters can also add tactical depth by trying to bait them into performing such actions.

UFO's tend to be fairly empty I agree, maybe a better balance between defensive and aggressive aliens can be struck, but I think most players don't like having to walk down a single chokepoint knowing camping aliens are going to reaction fire them. as there is currently no way to breach a UFO wall to bypass a chokepoint

[Xeferah]

22 hours ago, Skitso said:

Just reached my first terror mission (~day 120) on my latest playthrough and I need to say it again: it's tough. Yeah, it should be tougher than your average crash site mission at that point of the game, but currently it's BRUTAL. No way should it have three Cyberdrones. Same with the first retaliation mission, too tough.

I agree here. I always play on the hardest game settings (commander) and that first terror mission is BRUTAL! I tried it several times, reloaded dozens of times, even reloaded back to the world map to get a different map and the mission is just way too hard. Crash sites are piss easy compared to that! My map had elite psyons, elite sectiods and at least three cyverdisks. I can deal with the cyberdisks, but there are so many sectoids that snipe from halfway the map through smoke due to their +50 bonus aim. Soldiers can only take one shot, if they are lucky. I've had people get one-shot with plasma, even with guardian armor and extra plating.

I always set up 4 labs in the first month, so I'm always ahead on tech, so it's not like I could have better research done that would help me on that mission.

Absolutely brutal! I don't think anyone can do that mission on commander. As it is now, the first terror mission has to be skipped

[Skitso]

1 hour ago, Xeferah said:

I agree here. I always play on the hardest game settings (commander) and that first terror mission is BRUTAL! I tried it several times, reloaded dozens of times, even reloaded back to the world map to get a different map and the mission is just way too hard. Crash sites are piss easy compared to that! My map had elite psyons, elite sectiods and at least three cyverdisks. I can deal with the cyberdisks, but there are so many sectoids that snipe from halfway the map through smoke due to their +50 bonus aim. Soldiers can only take one shot, if they are lucky. I've had people get one-shot with plasma, even with guardian armor and extra plating.

I always set up 4 labs in the first month, so I'm always ahead on tech, so it's not like I could have better research done that would help me on that mission.

Absolutely brutal! I don't think anyone can do that mission on commander. As it is now, the first terror mission has to be skipped

Well, I did complete the mission (veteran) but lost 5 soldiers out of 8 and with any less luck it would have been a total fubar.

[Xeferah]

7 hours ago, Skitso said:

Well, I did complete the mission (veteran) but lost 5 soldiers out of 8 and with any less luck it would have been a total fubar.

If you want, I can attach the save file, so you can attempt mine on commander? ;-)

[Skitso]

On 7/14/2024 at 11:14 AM, Skitso said:

Just reached my first terror mission (~day 120) on my latest playthrough and I need to say it again: it's tough. Yeah, it should be tougher than your average crash site mission at that point of the game, but currently it's BRUTAL. No way should it have three Cyberdrones. Same with the first retaliation mission, too tough.

Quoting myself: while the first terror mission was a brutal difficulty spike, the first alien base (sebillian, mantid, reaper, psyon and secton) on the other hand was a cake walk. Reapers are still good for nothing AI wise and open map design just makes it worse. Add more tight, labyrinthine areas to help reapers be more effective. With three shield guys I suffered no damage as other enemies don't have AOE, burst or grenades to counter them. Add multi level rooms with vantage points for long range aliens.

The map reveal system when you clear the command room seems bugged or I just couldn't understand how it worked. At some point the game revealed the last alien, but then it vanished and never came back.

[gG-Unknown]

Colossus

- Currently Colossus feels a bit weak, not much just a bit. Auto-med could balance a tip of scale. Allow mount auto-med unit in Colossus. It is under the armour, attached (in)to soldiers body. Works independently on  soldiers actions- e.i. no restriction of handling in armour could apply. However,  make it so that ordinary Medkit do  not work on  Colossus. Soldier is literally sealed inside by special tools. Therfore Medic has no chance to open the shell in  the field.

- also allow put any ammo type or grenade into Colossus backpak, so it works like a transport mule.

 

Mantid - here is  a fitting  spicy advantage for them. As Insects,  they climb walls. Allow them go to second  floor without ladder. e.i. they can go  up anywhere.

Edited July 16, 2024 by gG-Unknown

[Skitso]

29 minutes ago, gG-Unknown said:

Colossus

- Currently Colossus feels a bit weak, not much just a bit. Auto-med could balance a tip of scale. Allow mount auto-med unit in Colossus. It is under the armour, attached (in)to soldiers body. Works independently on  soldiers actions- e.i. no restriction of handling in armour could apply. However,  make it so that ordinary Medkit do  not work on  Colossus. Soldier is literally sealed inside by special tools. Therfore Medic has no chance to open the shell in  the field.

- also allow put any ammo type or grenade into Colossus backpak, so it works like a transport mule.

 

Mantid - here is  a fitting  spicy advantage for them. As Insects,  they climb walls. Allow them go to second  floor without ladder. e.i. they can go  up anywhere.

Great ideas both.

[Skitso]

My latest alien base mission was so laughably easy that it made me think of reasons why aliens were so predictable and easy to kill. I took a look at classic xcom for comparison, and I immediately understood the issue. Alien bases (and UFOs) in Xenonauts are way too confined where every room and corridor is closed off by auto-closing doors. Look at this beautiful, complex, labyrinthine design, where you can be constantly ambushed 360 degree:

And notice these beautiful silhouettes of things just outside of your FoV. I love it.

 

Edited July 16, 2024 by Skitso

[Tom Pouce]

I have reached the end of the content of stage 4 and I can't wait to test the final version.

On the tactical aspect, I don't particularly have any comments to make other than on the precision of the enemies which sometimes seem to me to be excessive. For the rest, here are a few remarks out of order (some may not be feasible).

Maps : The arrival of new maps is a good thing but some elements do not seem logical to me. After taking down a spaceship, when you arrive on the map, no element is damaged or destroyed. As if the ship seems to have landed gently without having destroyed anything in its path. Isn't it possible to have a ship embedded in a building or at least some decorative elements destroyed? Are urban maps planned with multi-story buildings ? To avoid repetition, it would be good to land in a place that is not always the same, the same for the location of the spaceship. And of course, I would love to see weather effects.

Progression: The general balance of the game is good but becomes more complicated around day 110 where we very quickly find ourselves with enemies who are much better equipped and sometimes too aggressive. We find a balance around day 200 but between the two, the loss of a squad can mean game over.

We are given the possibility of having soldiers in another base but I don't think anyone will do it because the cost is prohibitive. So it could be interesting to have to have small base only for radars, defense and planes.

Air combat is more interesting. Even early aircraft can be used throughout the game in a missile carrier role. Thank you for no longer having to spend on each piece of equipment, it was pointless.

The colossus armor is very nice and could be improved with a more precise grenade launcher than the basic version.

In terms of the scenario, I was asked to capture an officer or an eternal (I forgot the name) and yet in no base did I have the opportunity to see him.

Finally, the aspect on which I am the most critical is that of the graphics and the soundtrack. Wartales, which is a game of equivalent price, offers something more lively and less fixed. Same for the soundtrack where I don't have a musical theme that stands out the most.
As if the work focuses mainly on the gameplay and a little less on the visual and sound design.

I used google translate so there may be mistakes. Thanks again for all the works.

[gG-Unknown]

17 hours ago, gG-Unknown said:

Colossus

- also allow put any ammo type or grenade into Colossus backpak, so it works like a transport mule.

I am quotinq myself due to improve idea :

Colossus

- transport mule - transporting ammo would require show  ammo in armoury but  not weapons, that would  be confusing  to use. UI would look like limped. So,  keep ammo&weapon page in armoury as it is. But rather allow all equipment tab >>> grenades, explosives, ... and shield !. I think that nice added value of Colossus can be, transport spare shield. For longer fights, your shield_maiden are stripped pretty quickly, so here is a nice value of Colossus, helpin other survive.

[kyu bey]

11 hours ago, Tom Pouce said:

In terms of the scenario, I was asked to capture an officer or an eternal (I forgot the name) and yet in no base did I have the opportunity to see him.

I used google translate so there may be mistakes. Thanks again for all the works.

eternal doesn't exist right now. just ignore the message to capture it. 

[Komandos]

Day 11 of the game.

Completed the task of freeing the hostages. (5/10) Xenonauts lost 4 soldiers (2 revived at the base).

Impressions

* first aid kits for wound dressing are too heavy.

Total: Each soldier should have a lightweight individual medical package to stop the bleeding.

 

* The goal of the task: "free the prisoners" looks strange, given the fact that at an early stage of the game we need as many alien artifacts as possible. (Scientists do not have materials for research, because we have not yet met with aliens). And the player has not yet had time to feel the negative effects of increased panic in order to understand how much the decrease in panic is 2 points more valuable than the lives of 1-2 soldiers.

Total: Obtaining alien artifacts should be a higher priority goal of the task at an early stage of the game.

 

 

* With so many injuries and losses among the player's soldiers, it becomes necessary to keep a much larger number of soldiers on the base. Therefore, I believe that the size of a barracks for 10 soldiers is not enough. On the 11th day of the game, I have 8 soldiers on treatment and 6 soldiers capable of serving.

Total: From the very first day of the game, the capacity of two barracks is extremely small.

 

* For a normal game, the player needs: from the very first day to build 1-2 additional hangars and 1 room for living.

Total: I suggest providing this resource to the player from the very beginning of the game.

 

* One knife weighs like two clips of 20 rounds each. Bottom line: this is a useless item.

Edited July 18, 2024 by Komandos

[Xeferah]

2 hours ago, Komandos said:

* With so many injuries and losses among the player's soldiers, it becomes necessary to keep a much larger number of soldiers on the base. Therefore, I believe that the size of a barracks for 10 soldiers is not enough. On the 11th day of the game, I have 8 soldiers on treatment and 6 soldiers capable of serving.

Total: From the very first day of the game, the capacity of two barracks is extremely small.

 

* For a normal game, the player needs: from the very first day to build 1-2 additional hangars and 1 room for living.

Total: I suggest providing this resource to the player from the very beginning of the game.

 

* One knife weighs like two clips of 20 rounds each. Bottom line: this is a useless item.

I do play on commander, so I can only give my take on the game, but here it goes:
- knife does indeed seem useless. Perhaps it gets better with the energy blade, but it costs too much to engineer that, so I never did.

- about injuries: correct, that is quite hard. My tip is to bring loads of flashbangs so that the enemies cannot return fire. It does help. Further, a med centre is helpful early on, but again quite expensive.

- On commander, I get 2M to spend on day 1. For that I can do 3 labs/engineering and 2 living quarters. I would start with that. With the next funding, staff those labs/engineering and try go get a medical, more labs/engineering and perhaps a training centre if you have money to spare. I don't really see a need to get more hangars in the first month. The second or third month it is useful, as you need a free spot to build aircrafts (for transit, if required).
 

[Komandos]

Day 23. The task of extracting 10 flash drives with data

I lost 5 soldiers in battle. Two soldiers lost due to the lack of adequate first-aid kits in the game to stop bleeding. Those that are available in the game are equal in gravity to a heavy machine gun with a full set of cartridges.

Not all soldiers can carry such heavy loads. In conditions of lack of time (on a combat mission with a limited time resource), doctors do not have time to provide assistance.

I also didn't like the fact that the second or third (subsequent) waves of reinforcements from the enemy do not appear at the farthest edge of the map, but next to my soldiers, which makes it pointless to engage in defense after the first wave of reinforcements appears. Total: from the very beginning of the game, it is necessary to designate zones for the player in which enemy reinforcements may appear. And these zones should be located at the farthest edge of the location from the landing site of the player.

[Komandos]

1 hour ago, Xeferah said:

- On commander, I get 2M to spend on day 1. For that I can do 3 labs/engineering and 2 living quarters. I would start with that. With the next funding, staff those labs/engineering and try go get a medical, more labs/engineering and perhaps a training centre if you have money to spare. I don't really see a need to get more hangars in the first month. The second or third month it is useful, as you need a free spot to build aircrafts (for transit, if required).

The complexity of the "Soldier".

The 23rd day of the game.

I have built a second Base. 1 Hangar and 1 radar are being built at the second Base. There are 2 Hangars (4 Hangars in total) and 2 rooms for housing (4 rooms for housing in total) built on the Main Base.

The Medical Center is the most expensive building in the game (along with the Training Center). Therefore, it is cheaper to keep more soldiers to replace those soldiers who are wounded in battle.

[Skitso]

14 minutes ago, Komandos said:

Day 23. The task of extracting 10 flash drives with data

I lost 5 soldiers in battle. Two soldiers lost due to the lack of adequate first-aid kits in the game to stop bleeding. Those that are available in the game are equal in gravity to a heavy machine gun with a full set of cartridges.

Not all soldiers can carry such heavy loads. In conditions of lack of time (on a combat mission with a limited time resource), doctors do not have time to provide assistance.

I also didn't like the fact that the second or third (subsequent) waves of reinforcements from the enemy do not appear at the farthest edge of the map, but next to my soldiers, which makes it pointless to engage in defense after the first wave of reinforcements appears. Total: from the very beginning of the game, it is necessary to designate zones for the player in which enemy reinforcements may appear. And these zones should be located at the farthest edge of the location from the landing site of the player.

Feels like you need to play on a lower difficulty level or just accept that you are bound to get losses in a game like this (xcom like)

[Komandos]

37 minutes ago, Skitso said:

Feels like you need to play on a lower difficulty level or just accept that you are bound to get losses in a game like this (xcom like)

This is my first time playing Xenonauts 2. Since this is my first game, I naturally focused on the tactics and mechanics of the game that worked in Xenonaut 1. Xenonauts 2 has a different balance of weapons, different tactical tasks, different weight of equipment and a different number of soldiers. All this leads to a wrong assessment of their strengths and their capabilities. Playing Xenonauts 2 for the second time, I will no longer make the mistakes I made the first time, not knowing the game mechanics and expecting it to repeat the mechanics of Xenonauts 1. For example: How could I know that my soldiers would lose consciousness in smoke? How could I know that opponents don't miss as often as they used to? How could I know that the grenade launcher was useless now? How can I find out how far hand grenades are being thrown in the room right now? How can I find out how many opponents are on the battlefield to know how boldly I can run forward? How can I know where and in what place enemy reinforcements may appear? How strong and numerous will they be?

How could I know that in the first month of the game, it's enough to have one fighter jet to destroy UFOs?

Edited July 18, 2024 by Komandos

[gG-Unknown]

When  showing a new research, you are using a frame on  top off screen. Lot of text on the right side of screen in small font.

>>> Improvement : for better readability use the WHOLE screen, e.i. make research frame spread whole resolution. If you  have a technology to auto resize picture without quality loss,  then do  it. Otherwise keep the picture size. Anyway, the main reason is, use the bigger space for the  bigger font. Lots of text in  small font it is auto-call for press button next without reading. When I say  the screeen for text in bigger font I mean it, use the screen size efficiently for information. Do  not fall into  a rabbit hole of a  User Interface over-art style :: frame inside a frame in the subb winndow who has  two scrollbars to be able scroll up and left to show all the infromation needed. Which means, player fights the UI instead of playing the game.

Edited July 18, 2024 by gG-Unknown

[Komandos]

 "Soldier". Day 31.

Monthly expenses 1,340,000.

Income 2,642,000.

Bases 2.

Living quarters 3 (4)

Hangar 5.

Generator 1.

Warehouse 1.

Radar 2.

Workshop 1.

Laboratory 1.

Soldiers 28.

Scientists 5.

Engineers 5.

 

Completed a combat mission to capture UFOs. The task is significantly easier than a task with a limited amount of time. 1 soldiers were killed. 1 alien captured (octopus brain).

The aliens are quite strong and shoot very accurately from a long distance. I lined up snipers in the second line, but several times I failed to hit the aliens, since the sniper rifle has a limited range, which is very bad in open spaces. Sniper soldiers had to be used in the first line. There are not enough long-range weapons in the game for second-line soldiers. Neither a grenade launcher nor a sniper rifle are fully suitable for the second line due to the short range.

The medical center is too expensive, so I didn't build it. In order not to lack healthy soldiers, I hired 28 soldiers (not very good, but the best of those that were). Those soldiers who remained available for recruitment were very weak: the strength of these soldiers was less than 39 units. However, at the beginning of the month, the list was updated: new soldiers with good characteristics appeared. I really liked it in the game.

There are also many other nice little things in the game (compared to Xenonauts 1). So far, the most unpleasant moment in the game, for me, is the balance of weapons, and the weight of the equipment.

Edited July 19, 2024 by Komandos

[Komandos]

Day 34.

The task of rescuing the VIP has been completed. And although I completed the task the first time and without loss, nevertheless, no task has ever caused me such anger and a sense of injustice towards the player as this. I believe that such tasks are nothing more than the destruction of the player's elite soldiers.

My soldiers advanced, stopping only to fire shots and reload their weapons. However, 3 turns were not enough for me to get to the evacuation point. Enemy reinforcements appeared next to my soldiers. I consider it a great success that the enemy was unlucky enough to kill a VIP. All 3 turns, the enemy fired at the VIP and my soldiers. He seriously injured many, but fortunately did not kill anyone. It was pure luck. All these 3 turns, my soldiers ran to the evacuation point, covering their backs with smoke. I was lucky that I had 30 soldiers on Base and I took the fastest ones on the mission. The most unpleasant moment in this mission was the places where enemy reinforcements appeared. The enemy should not appear in the center of the location, next to the player's soldiers. (In an unpredictable place for the player). The enemy must appear in an obvious and predictable place for the player - in the very place where the player's soldiers appeared in the location. The enemy must follow the footsteps of the player.

If all tactical tasks are created in this way (an unobvious, unpredictable place to generate enemies), then I will have very little joy from such surprises.

Edited July 18, 2024 by Komandos

[Komandos]

The complexity of the "Soldier".

Day 58.

Completed the task without loss: "The UFO crash site." At the moment, this is the easiest task in the game.

I have now flown out on a mission to "Free 10 captured civilians." I took the strongest, fastest and most experienced soldiers on a mission. And although I managed to free 4 civilians, and I have 2 more moves left to free the rest, I no longer know if I will bring this fight to an end or replay it in another way: (completely ignoring the goal of freeing civilians in 8 moves). Because the task of freeing 10 civilians in 8 moves is impossible (in full), and the process of freeing civilians is more like self-sabotage, a "meat attack" and getting rid of their best soldiers.

In completing this task, I made two blunders that no rookie player is immune from. My first mistake was to try to honestly complete the task I received at the mission briefing (to free 10 civilians in 8 turns). My second mistake was to send the best soldiers on this mission.

I believe that many novice players will also make a similar mistake - trying to complete the task "free 10 civilians in 8 turns" without having the slightest idea about the strength and number of aliens in this location, as well as the chances of successfully completing such a task. And if the players send their best soldiers on a similar mission, then they will simply arrange a massacre for their best soldiers.

In the future: I'm going to ignore such tasks (release 10 civilians in 8 turns).

In the first 6 turns of the game: One of my soldiers blew himself up with his own grenade (game error?) trying to throw a grenade at an alien. Two of my soldiers who fled to free civilians were killed by aliens. Three more are seriously injured, bleeding and it is not known if I will be able to evacuate them from the battlefield. I will probably lose 3 more of my soldiers in this battle, since the next move is for the enemy and the enemy is standing too close to my soldiers. 

Total: the elite of my troops, which I collected for 58 game days, were destroyed by 2/3 in an attempt to free 10 civilians in 8 turns, who, in principle, cannot be freed in 8 turns.

I don't mind the presence of "meat attacks" in the game. I don't mind having potentially impossible tasks in the game. This adds spice to the gameplay. However, in the briefing on the implementation of novice missions, you should honestly warn that the given task is potentially impossible. That the specified task potentially represents a "meat attack".

And if "meat attacks/assaults" occur in the game and the player loses his best soldiers in them, then the reward for completing such tasks should cover all possible losses.

Personally, I despair when I lose my best soldiers and realize that the goal of "liberating 10 civilians in 8 moves" cannot be achieved in principle, and the reward (if successful) is not able to compensate for the loss of experienced soldiers.

[Skitso]

A unit with a shield should count as a more substantial cover. It's currently only 20%. Maybe make it 50 or 60% so my units behind are more safe.

[gG-Unknown]

1 hour ago, Skitso said:

A unit with a shield should count as a more substantial cover. It's currently only 20%. Maybe make it 50 or 60% so my units behind are more safe.

Good idea.  Although rise from  20 to 50 is more than 100% rise in one step.

I would rise cover of standing Shield Maiden to 40%, kneeling ShieldMaiden to 30%,  then  lets see...

I would like to see difference Hi / Low cover.  It means, kneel gives lesss cover to your friends.  Currently, kneel is mandatory which is bad design.

Perhaps, this mechaniic  of give better cover could be applyed  to Colosus too?

Edited July 20, 2024 by gG-Unknown

[Skitso]

Servitors are pretty much good for nothing in terror missions and I've rarely seen them otherwise... They are so passive they won't get to shoot/suppress my units and on the other hand they keep their distance so they can't get to heal wraiths either. It's also because of the very open map I encountered them in, but it's probably something to think about AI wise @Gijs-Jan. Make them linger around healable units where they could also try suppressing my units more actively.

Nevertheless, I love servitors. They are one of the few enemies that really stand out. feel different and requires a bit different way to deal with. And because of that, I really wish servitors would be used more. I'd like to see them defending every UFO from destroyer forward. Put them in every command room, alien bases etc.

Speaking of different feeling enemies, androns feel too soft after latest nerfs. Make them tough again and counter it with less TU or ACC or something. I want to have bullet sponge enemies to really empty my clips to.

Edited July 20, 2024 by Skitso