Khall Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Looking over the V13 change log, something caught my eye. The new accuracy calculation disregarding adjacent cover. So I thought what if you could shoot over adjacent, crouched friendlies (the shooter would have to be standing). Obviously gameplay > realism , but it does seem odd that trained troops don't have the self-control to shoot over someone, without firing a burst into the back of the head (or it could just be classic X-COM accuracy). This mechanic would really come into play when fighting in tight, inclosed spaces, allowing you have more firepower without a lot of repositioning. The downsides is positions and lines of fire would be slightly less important (but the decision to crouch would compensate that, and it would only be for adjacent squares, anything outside of it would act just like now).I understand developement time is precious but I think it could add another layer of tactics. So what do you guys think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raziel1981 Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Quite sadly I have to disagree, you'd be stunned if not horrified about rl life military activity when it comes to friendly fire. To be honest I lost a childhood friend to such an event and when the military investigation was done, it was mind boggling how such a mistake could be done. These things are much more common then people normally consider. I doubt the devs meant it to be as it is at the moment, but I think that actually adds realism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moxar Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I agree, it would be nice our soldiers could treat adjacents crouched mates as cover when they fire, which means no risk of hitting them and discarding them from the precision formula. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okim Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Agreed. This must be addressed. It is a normal SWAT tactics to move in tight groups with lots of crunching and firing over kneeling mates. It was possible in Apocalypse for your soldiers to fire over lying or sitting team mates, it was so in Extraterrestrials and UFO:AS/AL. Not to mention JA2 that allowed to fire 'through' even standing mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jars_u Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I think this is one aspect where gameplay must win over realism; stuff happens BUT I would like to be able to shoot over someone crouched down in the tile immediately adjacent to me without worrying about blowing their head off by accident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 I think this is one aspect where gameplay must win over realism; stuff happens BUT I would like to be able to shoot over someone crouched down in the tile immediately adjacent to me without worrying about blowing their head off by accident. What about their eardrums? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swe_Racoon Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Realistically, it makes sense. During my time in the army we learned that one kneeling soldier and one standing soldier is a good way to double the amount of firepower you can put around a corner, for example, without exposing anyone too much. Not to offend anyone, but you'd have to be rather incompetent to hit your mate in this situation, if you do it properly. Basically the one standing is leaning against the kneeling dude, or otherwise making sure the muzzle of the gun is in front of the kneeling man. As for gameplay, not sure if it would offset balance too much. I for one would like to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beagle Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I was pretty suprised this wasn't in yet with the adjacent cover change, really hope to see it possible in the final game. Adds a nice layer of depth to the tactics and makes sense, plus it shouldn't be hard to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnarly Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 +1 here for being able to shoot over crouched team-mate. Drives me insane when egressing from chinook on terror mission; first guy crouches say rear right of Hunter and shoots, but 2nd guy (say sniper) cannot shoot (without shooting first guy or Hunter), because there aren't the available squares to move sideways and get clear LOF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUbiquitous Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Hear, hear. Adjacent and crouching (or lower) friendlies should be completely exempt from friendly fire. More than two or three squares out, though, should include the chance for friendly fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khall Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 It would also open new tactics to be used with the combat shield From the changelog- - Shooting over cover: When a unit fires a weapon, any cover in the adjacent tiles is disregarded for the purposes of the accuracy calculation (provided it does not have 100% stopping chance, which would mean it was a solid object such as a wall). This means that it is now far more advantageous to take cover, as your soldiers will no longer fire their weapons directly into objects only a few inches in front of them. The same reasoning can be used for shooting over soldiers so I see no reason it shouldn't be added (apart from time constraints). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamoecw Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 in the original xcom this tactic was able to be used, but instead of total disregard for adjacent friendlies, it was a significantly reduced chance for friendly fire. similar to shooting through an adjacent window, sometimes you still hit the frame (which is pretty bad for the situation of adjacent friendly). tanks were also a great source of mobile cover, a miss into cover rarely resulted in damage of any significance early on. the thing that gets me currently with adjacent friendlies, is grenades. you can't throw a grenade over someone else if they are right next to you. i am sure chris will have this sorted out before the final version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gijs-Jan Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 (This is my personal opinion) I'd would support this; if units were adjacent (and one crouched), I would want close to 0% chance of friendly fire. Friendly fire ingame should come from wrong positioning within the squad. Crouching/lying indicates intentional, thought-out positioning and should not be penalized by friendly fire. However, if you open fire while one of your squad mates is in the line-of-fire.. All bets are off, because you as a commander made a mistake. I would go even further and say that friendly fire should have increase morale cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 The morale loss is higher for killing a friendly trooper, not for damaging them though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FranTorres Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 +1 to this, it was an excellent trait in Apocalypse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturius Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Very good suggestion Khall. Shooting over adjacent, crouched soldiers is a feature I would like to see in Xenonauts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoMask Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Wasn't this possible in original game? .-. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Caine Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Not that I can remember. I remember mind-controlled squaddies blasting their own buddies at point blank, and fumblefingered rookies doing the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoMask Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 No I meant the "Shooting over crouched soldier" thing Or did I misunderstand first post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Caine Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 As I said, not that I can remember in the original games. I drew on my experience of mind-controlled squaddies shooting their own buddies at point blank (while crouched) and rookies shooting their buddies at point blank (likewise). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoMask Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Well of course mind controlled standing soldiers can shoot point plank crouched soldiers, they are aiming at them duh. Anyhoo, I guess I've been just lucky then because I've been doing that as far as I can remember... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Caine Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 It's not quite as cut and dried as that. If the enemy A.I. controlling the squaddie targets something over the head of a friendly unit (for whatever reason - perhaps the kneeling unit has a pistol and a unit a square away has a heavy plasma gun), then as I experienced it in the original, the kneeling unit would always be hit. If "shooting over heads" was implemented, how would this situation be addressed in general? Should kneeling friendly unit in front of an alien/and or mind-controlled squaddie Always be passed over (as per usual rules) act like cover, and therefore have a percentage chance to be hit always be hit first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khall Posted September 9, 2012 Author Share Posted September 9, 2012 Always be passed over or have small percentage chance to hit (whatever's the default) unless they are aiming directly at the unit would probably be most intuitive. "If I can shoot over my own units, why shouldn't the enemy?" is the way I look at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazz Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Realistically, it makes sense. During my time in the army we learned that one kneeling soldier and one standing soldier is a good way to double the amount of firepower This is as old as muskets and volley fire. =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 It's not quite as cut and dried as that. If the enemy A.I. controlling the squaddie targets something over the head of a friendly unit (for whatever reason - perhaps the kneeling unit has a pistol and a unit a square away has a heavy plasma gun), then as I experienced it in the original, the kneeling unit would always be hit. If "shooting over heads" was implemented, how would this situation be addressed in general? Should kneeling friendly unit in front of an alien/and or mind-controlled squaddie Always be passed over (as per usual rules) act like cover, and therefore have a percentage chance to be hit always be hit first Remember this game has suppression as well. Even if it was always the front one that was hit the one behind would be getting suppressed. As far as I know a kneeling soldier has a 60% chance to block any shots that pass through his tile. If fire was coming back at the person who was standing then the kneeling person would likely intercept the shot. Not always, but then that would be as realistic as shooting over a friendlies head. If someone is in front of you they are partially blocking sight of you and the direct path of bullets/plasma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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