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Khall

Shooting over adjacent, crouched soldiers

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Looking over the V13 change log, something caught my eye. The new accuracy calculation disregarding adjacent cover. So I thought what if you could shoot over adjacent, crouched friendlies (the shooter would have to be standing). Obviously gameplay > realism , but it does seem odd that trained troops don't have the self-control to shoot over someone, without firing a burst into the back of the head (or it could just be classic X-COM accuracy).

This mechanic would really come into play when fighting in tight, inclosed spaces, allowing you have more firepower without a lot of repositioning. The downsides is positions and lines of fire would be slightly less important (but the decision to crouch would compensate that, and it would only be for adjacent squares, anything outside of it would act just like now).I understand developement time is precious but I think it could add another layer of tactics.

So what do you guys think?

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Quite sadly I have to disagree, you'd be stunned if not horrified about rl life military activity when it comes to friendly fire. To be honest I lost a childhood friend to such an event and when the military investigation was done, it was mind boggling how such a mistake could be done. These things are much more common then people normally consider. I doubt the devs meant it to be as it is at the moment, but I think that actually adds realism.

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I agree, it would be nice our soldiers could treat adjacents crouched mates as cover when they fire, which means no risk of hitting them and discarding them from the precision formula.

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Agreed. This must be addressed. It is a normal SWAT tactics to move in tight groups with lots of crunching and firing over kneeling mates. It was possible in Apocalypse for your soldiers to fire over lying or sitting team mates, it was so in Extraterrestrials and UFO:AS/AL. Not to mention JA2 that allowed to fire 'through' even standing mate.

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I think this is one aspect where gameplay must win over realism; stuff happens BUT I would like to be able to shoot over someone crouched down in the tile immediately adjacent to me without worrying about blowing their head off by accident.

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I think this is one aspect where gameplay must win over realism; stuff happens BUT I would like to be able to shoot over someone crouched down in the tile immediately adjacent to me without worrying about blowing their head off by accident.

What about their eardrums? :P

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Realistically, it makes sense. During my time in the army we learned that one kneeling soldier and one standing soldier is a good way to double the amount of firepower you can put around a corner, for example, without exposing anyone too much. Not to offend anyone, but you'd have to be rather incompetent to hit your mate in this situation, if you do it properly. Basically the one standing is leaning against the kneeling dude, or otherwise making sure the muzzle of the gun is in front of the kneeling man.

As for gameplay, not sure if it would offset balance too much. I for one would like to see it.

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I was pretty suprised this wasn't in yet with the adjacent cover change, really hope to see it possible in the final game. Adds a nice layer of depth to the tactics and makes sense, plus it shouldn't be hard to do.

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+1 here for being able to shoot over crouched team-mate.

Drives me insane when egressing from chinook on terror mission; first guy crouches say rear right of Hunter and shoots, but 2nd guy (say sniper) cannot shoot (without shooting first guy or Hunter), because there aren't the available squares to move sideways and get clear LOF

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Hear, hear. Adjacent and crouching (or lower) friendlies should be completely exempt from friendly fire. More than two or three squares out, though, should include the chance for friendly fire.

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It would also open new tactics to be used with the combat shield

From the changelog-

- Shooting over cover: When a unit fires a weapon, any cover in the adjacent tiles is disregarded for the purposes of the accuracy calculation (provided it does not have 100% stopping chance, which would mean it was a solid object such as a wall). This means that it is now far more advantageous to take cover, as your soldiers will no longer fire their weapons directly into objects only a few inches in front of them.

The same reasoning can be used for shooting over soldiers so I see no reason it shouldn't be added (apart from time constraints).

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in the original xcom this tactic was able to be used, but instead of total disregard for adjacent friendlies, it was a significantly reduced chance for friendly fire. similar to shooting through an adjacent window, sometimes you still hit the frame (which is pretty bad for the situation of adjacent friendly). tanks were also a great source of mobile cover, a miss into cover rarely resulted in damage of any significance early on.

the thing that gets me currently with adjacent friendlies, is grenades. you can't throw a grenade over someone else if they are right next to you.

i am sure chris will have this sorted out before the final version.

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(This is my personal opinion)

I'd would support this; if units were adjacent (and one crouched), I would want close to 0% chance of friendly fire.

Friendly fire ingame should come from wrong positioning within the squad. Crouching/lying indicates intentional, thought-out positioning and should not be penalized by friendly fire.

However, if you open fire while one of your squad mates is in the line-of-fire.. All bets are off, because you as a commander made a mistake. I would go even further and say that friendly fire should have increase morale cost.

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The morale loss is higher for killing a friendly trooper, not for damaging them though.

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Very good suggestion Khall.

Shooting over adjacent, crouched soldiers is a feature I would like to see in Xenonauts.

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Not that I can remember. I remember mind-controlled squaddies blasting their own buddies at point blank, and fumblefingered rookies doing the same.

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No I meant the "Shooting over crouched soldier" thing

Or did I misunderstand first post?

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As I said, not that I can remember in the original games. I drew on my experience of mind-controlled squaddies shooting their own buddies at point blank (while crouched) and rookies shooting their buddies at point blank (likewise).

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Well of course mind controlled standing soldiers can shoot point plank crouched soldiers, they are aiming at them duh.

Anyhoo, I guess I've been just lucky then because I've been doing that as far as I can remember...

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It's not quite as cut and dried as that. If the enemy A.I. controlling the squaddie targets something over the head of a friendly unit (for whatever reason - perhaps the kneeling unit has a pistol and a unit a square away has a heavy plasma gun), then as I experienced it in the original, the kneeling unit would always be hit. If "shooting over heads" was implemented, how would this situation be addressed in general?

Should kneeling friendly unit in front of an alien/and or mind-controlled squaddie

  • Always be passed over (as per usual rules)
  • act like cover, and therefore have a percentage chance to be hit
  • always be hit first

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Always be passed over or have small percentage chance to hit (whatever's the default) unless they are aiming directly at the unit would probably be most intuitive. "If I can shoot over my own units, why shouldn't the enemy?" is the way I look at it.

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Realistically, it makes sense. During my time in the army we learned that one kneeling soldier and one standing soldier is a good way to double the amount of firepower

This is as old as muskets and volley fire. =)

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It's not quite as cut and dried as that. If the enemy A.I. controlling the squaddie targets something over the head of a friendly unit (for whatever reason - perhaps the kneeling unit has a pistol and a unit a square away has a heavy plasma gun), then as I experienced it in the original, the kneeling unit would always be hit. If "shooting over heads" was implemented, how would this situation be addressed in general?

Should kneeling friendly unit in front of an alien/and or mind-controlled squaddie

  • Always be passed over (as per usual rules)

  • act like cover, and therefore have a percentage chance to be hit

  • always be hit first

Remember this game has suppression as well.

Even if it was always the front one that was hit the one behind would be getting suppressed.

As far as I know a kneeling soldier has a 60% chance to block any shots that pass through his tile.

If fire was coming back at the person who was standing then the kneeling person would likely intercept the shot.

Not always, but then that would be as realistic as shooting over a friendlies head.

If someone is in front of you they are partially blocking sight of you and the direct path of bullets/plasma.

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