erutan Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 I'd go for both - I think it'd be helpful to have a general idea what stage of suppression your soldiers are in at a glance (simple icon w/ ~3 variations), then have the more detailed info on the bars. You could have little tick marks showing suppression level changes on the side of bravery. I'm not wedded to the idea of ranks but it seems like it might make things easier to grasp (I'm in range a/b/c/ vs 82%) while being a bit more realistic than the all or nothing method. Good point on impact radius being easier to model. I'd be happy either way though shot path seems more realistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 I prefer the flow of an analogue system. For example when 30% of your morale bar was covered you would have 30% of the penalties, rather than set stages where you suddenly go from 0% to 50% to 100% penalties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erutan Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 I think it shouldn't be a direct relationship, but take a while to activate. e.g. if you have a small caliber round or two whiz by, you shouldn't be 5% suppressed. it would build suppression, but having the game mechanic kick in at a certain point would make sense. e.g. at 50% of bravery you get 2% suppressed for every 1% up the bar. I don't have strong feelings whether it is an incremental increase based by % or by stages, but I could see stages being cleaner (though you'd have frustrating moments above or below a stage, and it does feel a bit arbitrary to suddenly scale up) and it'd be easier to see the effects on aliens (we wouldn't see an actual bar fill up, but lightly, moderately, heavily suppressed icons would be useful). Each has it's pros and cons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Yeah that was closer to the original suggestion I think, I simplified it for the example but did it badly. I would remove the icon from the enemy when suppressing them anyway. You shouldn't know how effective your shots have been on them. Admittedly you know for a fact you are affecting them with the current system, you can't fail to suppress even if you miss. The alternative is to leave the stage icons you mentioned in place at certain percentages to give you a basic idea. You could assume those stages are from identifying their behaviour. Stage one they are looking a bit twitchy, stage two they are trying to keep their head down, stage three they are practically on the floor looking frantically for cover etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
resonansER Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I really like idea ​​suppression fire. VERY like! And then, as his realized now, I like too. This innovation is to place and wonderful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUbiquitous Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Are suppressed aliens easier to capture? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thothkins Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 In the sense that another soldier can go up and stun it, without being shot? Or in that their resistance is lower? I'm not sure I'd equate suppressed as passive. What about a stun attack removing suppression? so if you fail your soldier could be attacked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUbiquitous Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 In any sense, but particularly as some kind of penalty. There should be a penalty to the "saving throw" for capture when an alien is suppressed. (Imagining here that suppressed is having to throw yourself against a wall because there're too many bullets, rockets, &c. This happens all the time in the movies.) Now, if there's also a "cowering" status, then aliens should be absolutely easier to capture. But that's not what I'm thinking at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thothkins Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) I'd agree that if the alien was cowering in fear following suppression inducing attack then, it would be easier to stun. The alien is essentially passive. However, if the suppression was to allow another soldier to approach with a stun baton, then I'd hope that the Sebillian, for a good example, would consider it as close combat, realise that the Xenonaut is hardly likely to continue firing on it's colleague and no longer be suppressed. In practice, in turn based, the stun Xenonuat gets his turn at stunning the alien, but is due to be reaction fired upon, on the aliens turn, if he/she can't get back into cover. Edited August 12, 2012 by thothkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUbiquitous Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Good point on the exception for the Sabellian. That would be totally flavorful and in character. Hope the mods read that post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Remember as well that suppression fire affects everyone in the area. If you were to fail your stun attempt, and survive the alien turn, then you would need to make your next stun attempt before the alien could be suppressed again. If you tried to suppress it first then you could potentially suppress your own trooper who is stood on the wrong side of cover next to an enemy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carnesaur Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Suppression % directly reflects how much ap available next round. example: alien has 100 ap you suppress him 40%. so he gets 60% of his ap ie 60ap in this case this creates room for suppression tactics. you can use a guy with an mg to lay down fire and keep the aliens from moving while your others flank them. maybe you could also code the enemy to do this.. have one lay down heavy plasma fire, when the other notices suppression on xenonaut soldiers, it flags code to move in for a kill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Suppression %directly reflects how much ap available next round. example: alien has 100 ap you suppress him 40%. so he gets 60% of his ap ie 60ap in this case this creates room for suppression tactics. you can use a guy with an mg to lay down fire and keep the aliens from moving while your others flank them. maybe you could also code the enemy to do this.. have one lay down heavy plasma fire, when the other notices suppression on xenonaut soldiers, it flags code to move in for a kill. How would you represent that in game though? At what point does the suppression become noticeable and how? Use the current supressed marker? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 (edited) I think two levels of suppression would be fine. One where the person/alien won't move and one where it won't move or fire. I'm not 100% sure the marker should tell you how suppressed the target is. IRL, you would probably know they looked pinned down, but not whether or not they'd be willing to fire. It might also be good to have suppression occasionally cause the target to just run away from closest enemy at maximum speed. I think that used to happen in the old XCom. Edited August 22, 2012 by StellarRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 How would you represent that in game though? At what point does the suppression become noticeable and how? Use the current supressed marker? I would have an offset. For example after 50% suppression you start losing reserved AP at 2% and next turns AP at 1% for every 1% suppression (total of 100% reserved AP and 50% next turn AP when fully suppressed). At 75% suppression they would crouch. The icon just needs to signify when they are starting to be affected (at 50%) if you want to keep it. The crouch at 75% would show they were in more trouble. If you like suppression markers you could have blue at 50%, yellow at 75% and red at 100%. You could just have the blue at 50% to show you were having an effect. I think it is unlikely to change though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 I've been thinking about the whole suppression thing lately mostly because the "marker" thread. I don't like the way it works at all. It needs to be a graduated system that basically reduces the action points a unit has available AND, THIS IS IMPORTANT, the amount of reduction that is added and removed by each incident of fire or recovery should be randomized and not visible. Of course, this can be partially based on the weapon, armor, unit type, etc... A random amount of recovery should occur during the between the end of the alien turn and beginning of the Xenonaut turn. That will give everyone the best of all possible worlds. The realists will be happy because even if a unit marked as suppressed it is quite possible the unit will "snap out of it" during your turn and reaction fire at you. Also, since each incident of fire inflicts a random amount of suppression, the more you fire the more likely a unit will be heavily suppressed, but you'll never quite be sure how much or when they'll "wake up". Voila! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Luc Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 Don't know if it's been mentioned but a nice way to make suppression less predictable and safe might be to make it lower a unit's reflex value rather than action points (APs would still go down but not as much). Significantly lower reflexes means that it's relatively safe to approach the unit but you can never be 100% certain that there isn't going to be any reaction fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 Don't know if it's been mentioned but a nice way to make suppression less predictable and safe might be to make it lower a unit's reflex value rather than action points (APs would still go down but not as much). Significantly lower reflexes means that it's relatively safe to approach the unit but you can never be 100% certain that there isn't going to be any reaction fire.That's another approach. Possibly as good. What about aliens that attack hand to hand? Do reflexes matter then? It should also pin them down in position too, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Luc Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 I imagine that melee creatures would be treated the same as ranged ones meaning if someone tries to stun baton or pistol whip them in melee they would still have a small chance of retaliating but I'm not really sure how melee combat works in terms of "reaction fire". As I mentioned the unit would still lose some of its AP, it's just that it would never get completely shut down. Some AP needs to remain in order for reaction fire to be at all possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 There is a whole suggestion thread where reactions were suggested but Chris was dead set on the AP reduction method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean-Luc Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 Mmm, haven't really been following the suppression discussions save the first few pages of this thread. Too bad. For what it's worth I do agree, in theory, that a suppressed unit shouldn't be completely helpless against an approaching enemy. There should always be some risk involved in trying to pacify an alien (especially using hand to hand methods). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 There is a whole suggestion thread where reactions were suggested but Chris was dead set on the AP reduction method.I not sure I like that too much. I agree with Jean-Luc and Gauddlike. Even the most wounded animal/person will fight back hand to hand if you get close enough and are trying to hurt it further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chollirem Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 (edited) OK heres my two bits from the old thread dropped of here, Enjoy now 50 CAL 50 cals IRL kill anything within a few feet of the round as it goes past, the shock wave from the round kills you. Like this the 50 cal can be used for recon by fire (free aim fire into unseen ground)...but will kill any civilians/aliens near bullet path (for code speak lets say it does 20% dmg to everything with in 1 square of the round location...meaning if it pass's by you it should tag you 2 or 3 times until its not in a adjacent square any more) Suppression with a 50 cal would then be lethal to anything in the beat zone unless it has mad HP/Armor SAW's "Squad automatic weapons aka machine guns" could be set up to suppress in the following way You right click from snap to burst to suppress.... and "shoot" the target area... A "cone of fire" from the SAW gunner to the beat zone (suppression end point) is drawn on the map and ANYTHING moving into or out of any square the cone or beat zone touch's gets effected with suppression fire. So don't walk in front of the SAW gunner stupid lol the Beat zone "or targeted area suppressed" will be a oval shaped area at the end of the cone of fire so you can suppress an area with easy of use for the player.... simple point and click.... and the AI should be able to use this as well The further away from the center of these areas you are, the less it effects you much like a grenade It looks like this more or less saw=saw 0=cone of fire x=beat zone (area you target for suppression) ....................................00000xxxxx .......................000000000x................x saw000000000000000000x...Suppression...x .......................000000000x.....area.....x ....................................00000xxxxx I Suggest the area being 5-7 tiles wide 7-10 tiles long as a base and tweak in game from there, but this looks right for your maps square size Anything walking/shooting/kneeling/standing/throwing grenades/talking a pee...whatever in the cone of fire or at the beat zone should take 10% to 100% saw dmg every time they do ANYTHING in that area Anything in suppression zone should suffer a aim/throw/moral penalties of 40% Further if you have no cover you take another 10-100% saw dmg for just standing there at the end of your turn Each use of Suppression should uses up a 50round Saw mag every time you do it so you can't abuse it (that and suppressing an enemy does eat up ammo IRL The AP cost for suppression should be 45ish AP as you are basically devoting everything to this task over the whole enemy turn burst on a saw should cost 5% more AP then burst on a assault riffle (M16) as you simple fire a few more rounds at a much faster rate...usually 5-7 round burst at about 850 rounds per minute VS 3 round burst with the m16 at about 90 rounds per minute (if you are keeping both weapons in safe operation perimeters anyways) You only get snapshot and burst with a saw as well....you can only AIM with a saw when taking a knee/prone or standing next to cover and firing over it as a weapon support... This both limits the weapon back to its proper job as a support element yet makes it the power house it is in a realistic and balanced manner Also snap shot and aimed should fire 3 to 5 rounds on the saw taking a knee should give +30% aim to weapons with +50% aim to heavy weapons Prone if you put it in should give +50% aim to weapons with + 70% aim with heavy weapons (to shoot standing really nerfs your aim IRL and the heavier the weapon the more it screws you up...) NOTE: IRL we have 200 round drums and could maintain this for 4 "turns" instead of one before reloading. You guys don't have saw drums on your machine guns for some reason : / maybe a research upgrade for SAW like weapons? SECOND NOTE: if a oval is to hard make it a circle, it will be close enough FINAL NOTE: I have been told to think about Tier 1 2 3 and beyond game mechanics.... OK if your tier 1 game mechanics are correct, the higher tier weapons will simple enhance the lower tier effect ....so everything here can be used on plasma based SAW and the like... In short.... this works for all weapons with massive fire rate and moderate accuracy like a SAW/50Cal and can be used in any game Tier to good effect and not be over powering due to AP and AMMO requirements to maintain it Whats you input people PS Suppression animation should be 7 round burst, 2 second pause 7 round burst until start of your next turn or SAW gets shot Edited December 31, 2012 by Chollirem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Caine Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 (edited) From a game mechanic point of view, what you propose is an always-on overwatch in a specific area, using the same kind of animation style as XCOM:Euuuwaitaminute! I was wrong. What you propose is an XCOM:EU mechanic rejigged to your preferred style! Rather than it affect 1 guy like in XCOM:EU, it would affect a template. Rather than reduce aim and allow a free shot, it does continuous damage in a specific area. So.. what about every other weapon in the game? Don't they get to suppress as well? Have you played Full Spectrum Warrior? EDIT: Or Brothers in Arms? Edited January 1, 2013 by Max_Caine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chollirem Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Suppressing in the military is the act of putting so much lead on the target, they cant do anything without getting hurt. Riffles simple put cannot do that, and don't even get me started on that EU crap FURTHER, this is realistic based on my experience using these weapon systems to kill people...you don't suppress a "Target" you suppress a "Area" that the "targets" are in anything IN that area... or between YOU and IT gets suppressed at the cost of A saw gunner himself cant move B uses lots of ammo As a SAW if someone gets out of the suppression zone I'm trusting a riffle man to shoot that pr!ck and do His job, so I can do Mine. ALSO...as I said, this is a simple and realistic game mechanic for ALL weapons that A have a very high rate of fire B have moderate accuracy or above Sooooooo Grenade launchers Scoped Riffles Assault Riffles Rocket Launchers ETC don't have the fire rate of say 50Cal, SAW, flame thrower its the difference of 90 rounds per minute in a m16 assault riffle and 850 round per minute with a SAW See the difference? Last a flame thrower doesn't have the range of the SAW 50Cal, its for clearing Bunkers/caves/tunnels originally and kills by burring, smoke inhalation, and oxygen deprivation. that's not true suppression...that...suffocate one of two ways and burn to death.... in short... die in a horrifically slow manner No real "suppression" there Every weapon has its job, every alien has its grave tracking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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