Max_Caine Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 While I hesitate to use Wikipiedia, I reference it as a source which widens the definiton beyond yours.. There are other military types on this board. I'm sure someone else would be willing to chime in on this matter.. And I'm afraid this again is not considering higher tiers. Using your example, barring other real-world constraints, a laser rifle using unobtainium (alenium) power cells and and handwavium (alien alloys) components in its construction could be set to pulse harmful laser beams at the very high rate you're demanding from a SAW. And the same could be said for tier 4 weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chollirem Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 (edited) If that is the case then it fits the A high rate of fire b average or better accuracy so it still works worry less about the tier and more about "can it do this job", if yes then you can apply it to that weapon wiki def defined by NATO as “the application of fire, coordinated with the manoeuvre of forces, to destroy, neutralize or suppress the enemy.” Before NATO defined the term, the British and Commonwealth armies generally used “neutralisation” with the same definition as suppression. NATO now defines neutralization as “fire delivered to render a target temporarily ineffective or unusable.” the saw suppresses the area with fire to prevent movement and return fire by killing or wounding anyone who tries...the maneuver element flanks it, My answers on how to do it above cover all of that, Correct? : ) Lets try to as a group, KISS (keep it simple stupid) Simplify things for the dev team so its easy for them to apply the effect, and use it for everything that fits...ask the dev team if they want to "Hard Code" every weapon and its abilities, Im betting the answer is no... to truly help these guys we need to think up realistic and balanced ways to deal with things that can quickly and easily be used in ALL tiers so long as the weapon meets the requirements for that ability In short, Solid Core Game mechanics Edited January 1, 2013 by Chollirem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Caine Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 (edited) If you want to Keep It Simple, then permit all weapons the capability to (edit) cumulatively suppress, as per the example of the wiki, and the demonstration of the suppression mechanics that already exist (bear in mind this thread is OLD in comparison to the mechanics that are already implemented). That some weapons are better than others at suppressive fire I certainly do not deny. However, to declare that "X is the only weapon capable of suppression" is a fallicy which I have demonstrated through the spehss lazors that are tier 2. Edited January 1, 2013 by Max_Caine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chollirem Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 (edited) please define these game mechanics your talking about so that I can understand :edit 3: actually thinking about it you got some great ideas that a guy used to weapon kick like me doesn't think about, Im going to re-write this block of code in my head but its feeling like you tell them suppress with a weapon that has SAW type fire rates, they fire into the target area suppressing who ever is in it, and if something none hostile walks into the area/cone of fire, their is simply a chance rounds may hit them. Hostile targets will be aimed at to determine if you hit the target for every triggering action. but once it leaves that area you go back to suppressive fire on target area. bringing us back to this saw=saw 0=cone of fire x=beat zone (area you target for suppression) ....................................00000xxxxx .......................000000000x................x saw000000000000000000x...Suppression...x .......................000000000x.....area.....x ....................................00000xxxxx with simple game mechanics suppressive fire on a target...IE 1 alien is more like super reaction shot, as your putting rounds on the target in cover and will aim and shoot it if it comes out (more like the EU style of suppression). Both use one full mag from the weapon to perform to keep it both realistic and from being over powering And both cause aim/moral penalties to the target while suppressed hows that sound? :edit 3 end: Edited January 1, 2013 by Chollirem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Caine Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 The mechanics I refer to are in the first post of the first page of this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chollirem Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 how the fk did I miss that x.x well ya thats more sound then anything I got to offer outside of visuals for the suppression area and cone of fire when activly suppressing an area...however even suppressed, the enemy has shot back at me...he was blind firing tho and didn't hit anything.... maybe view it as every character on the map has a "suppression bubble" around them...any rounds that pass within 3 tiles of them count against their suppression so even if you have 5 guys shoot at and "miss" the alien should still be "suppressed" (sorry about that fiasco, just read like 67 pages of threads and then jumped into this) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazz Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 *shrug* At least you tried to add something useful instead of parroting some general terms from other games! That should be encouraged. =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chollirem Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 oh wow I dont know why i didnt think of this the first time... In combat, you get suppressed you with lots a bullets right? so why not have say...a zone around every character on the map, any round of any type that passes within say...3 squares of anything has suppression added to it, take bravery plus armor. once you get more suppression points put against you then these two togeather you are "suppressed" that way a bunch of people taking aimed or burst or whatever shots can suppress anything if they put enough fire power on the target (and miss) or even if the rounds are just close as you shoot and maybe kill the alien next to him all rounds have the same suppression value, so its easy code, all it does is track, how many rounds have come too close to me, does that add up to more then my armor + bravory and each round is oh i dont know, 20 suppression? with armor that's like 5 rounds to suppress someone (beats having to code in a value on all the aim/snap/normal/burst shots...a round is a round, you dont know if they are aiming or hip fireing, you just know a round passed you and you may need to change your shorts lol) what cha all think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chollirem Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 (edited) one more thing, full auto weapons like the saw should have the "suppression" ability like Aim or snap shot, low accuracy but empties half the weapons max ammo at a cost of 45ap for a heavy weapon like the saw, and say 25 for a light weapon like the uzi (its a machine pistol after all) since shot guns wont get buck shot, we should drop it for a cold war weapon like the Uzi, which also has full auto, the uzi would be good for close combat, the saw better at range, both can suppress but the saw is better for range as it is a bulky weapon, the uzi has crap range but is light weight and awsome up close. two support weapons each with the area they work best in. and jobs that are specific to them for player style to employ (as it is I just use the precision riffle as my only t1 human weapon, the other weapons really aren't worth it when you stack them up accuracy and dmg and range wise right now) this also means maps need more cover and stuff to make different battle field problems present themselves to make it worth while for players use more then one weapon that and i can free aim and shoot a target in a building with no accuracy penalty even though a wall is in the way of my shooting soldiers LOS to a alien spotted by someone else(needs to be fixed) Edited January 3, 2013 by Chollirem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 so why not have say...a zone around every character on the map, any round of any type that passes within say...3 squares of anything has suppression added to it, take bravery plus armor. once you get more suppression points put against you then these two togeather you are "suppressed" that way a bunch of people taking aimed or burst or whatever shots can suppress anything if they put enough fire power on the target (and miss) or even if the rounds are just close as you shoot and maybe kill the alien next to him. I'm not sure the game engine can track if the bullets "pass by" within range. Not without multiplying the value with every square it passes through, making it very awkward as a mechanic. I think the current system calculates from the point of bullet impact and use an area effect (like an explosion) to apply suppression. Correct me if I'm wrong. (Note Goldhawk is using a game engine that was not designed by them which causes them to struggle quite a bit with a few things. The team that created the engine doesn't respond to Goldhawk so they can't do any changes to it without fear of legal repercussions.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 (edited) Not quite correct Gorlom, the current system uses the point you aim at and generates the area of effect from there. Where your bullets go or what they hit makes no difference to the suppression. For example you aim at an enemy four screens away from you but the bullet hits the barrel two squares in front of you. The existing system generates suppression at the aim point four screens away but none at the impact point. Some felt this was a more realistic way of doing it than suppression being dependent on the impact point. I disagree but the current system seems likely to stay, as it is already in and working. Bullet path suppression was also suggested but this is an even more complicated change so far less likely to be adopted. Edited January 3, 2013 by Gauddlike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Where your bullets go or what they hit makes no difference to the suppression.I disagree but the current system seems likely to stay, as it is already in and working. Wow, that make the whole burst fire scattering everywhere problem even more "wrong". Now not only is the amount scatter way too big it doesn't even work 100% correctly when it does scatter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Ah thanks for clarifying that Gauddlike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Ah thanks for clarifying that Gauddlike No worries, it isn't the most transparent system. Wow, that make the whole burst fire scattering everywhere problem even more "wrong". Now not only is the amount scatter way too big it doesn't even work 100% correctly when it does scatter. I agree and it was one of the many arguments put forward for using one of the other systems proposed. All fell on deaf ears though. Chris seems to feel if the current system appears to work without glaring issues then it is good enough to go with rather than spending time and effort changing it to another system which might bring its own problems, which I can't argue with. I may not like the system and it may not make much sense to me but I don't remember anyone reporting a problem with it. If I hadn't said anything you may not have even realised the disparity between suppression area and actual impact area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chollirem Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 hmmm so are they planning to make a xenonauts 2 and use the lessons learned and money from this first game to make something for 2015 with a full dev team and open source engine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboRed Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 (edited) I can't give any input as far as the dynamics of suppression in this game, that's above my head on the programming side. But as a SAW gunner myself I would never just dump an entire drum of ammo into a target. Usually I'd use about 15 round bursts and then re-adjust the weapon back on target. Also have to let the barrel cool down. (I learned this the hard way IRL) Not that it matters how real life the game is, but I don't think a machine gun will run out of ammo suppressing 1 target. Maybe there can be 2 types of suppression. Soft Suppression (15 round burst) and Hard Suppression (30 round burst). I just found this thread and still reading over it, so forgive any repeat info or unintentional kicking of dead horses. EDIT: According to the image for the machine gun, that is a M240B which shoots 7.62 caliber rounds and uses a 100rnd drum(M249 SAW uses a 200rnd drum). I am mistaken for calling it a SAW which is the M249 and shoots 5.56 caliber. The 240B has longer range and much higher recoil than the M249 SAW. It is also a 2 man "crew served" weapon and is usually assigned an Assistant Gunner/Ammo Bearer. Edited January 4, 2013 by HoboRed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I think the weapon is supposed to be a SAW but the image used is what the artist found when searching for machine gun images. Same for the other weapons really. The images are to show the archetype of the weapon, like using a recognisable M16 or AK47 silhouette to represent the assault rifle, rather than a less obvious (to most) FAMAS. The images are also easier to change than it is to add new mechanics to try and reflect the roles and drawbacks of other weapon types, for example needing a two man crew. As far as Xenonauts 2 goes Chris has said he would prefer to move on to a different project rather than concentrate on a sequel. I don't think he wants Goldhawk to be known as the x-com remake company Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I think the weapon is supposed to be a SAW but the image used is what the artist found when searching for machine gun images.Same for the other weapons really. The images are to show the archetype of the weapon, like using a recognisable M16 or AK47 silhouette to represent the assault rifle, rather than a less obvious (to most) FAMAS. The images are also easier to change than it is to add new mechanics to try and reflect the roles and drawbacks of other weapon types, for example needing a two man crew. As far as Xenonauts 2 goes Chris has said he would prefer to move on to a different project rather than concentrate on a sequel. I don't think he wants Goldhawk to be known as the x-com remake company Well, like I said in another thread the SAW is a much more sensible weapon for one guy to carry. The M60 is really a two man weapon. That being said, the picture needs to changed and the damage per hit should be equal to the M16. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 As pointed out though the picture is not an M60 either It makes no difference to most people (me included) but to some it does cause a problem. If possible it would be nice for the picture to change but it would still need to resemble the ground combat sprites otherwise it just isn't worth it. I can't see all of those being redone because it looks like an M240 instead of an M249 or whatever the numbers end up being Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboRed Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I would just like to see at least a 100 round drum for the SAW then. Using 50 rounds on suppression and then reloading, that's a lot of ammo to carry on larger size missions. Think of how many aliens your gonna be suppressing on the larger craft and terror missions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboRed Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 (edited) This might help explain what I mean by Soft and Hard suppression. A video of an M249 SAW doing Soft and Hard Suppressive Fire. Soft Suppression = Keep the enemies head down. Alien is suppressed losing reflexive firing abilities. Hard Suppression = Keep the enemy from moving period. Alien is suppressed, losing reflexive firing abilities, with the possibility of panic. Any targets that are actually hit with SAW during suppressive fire suffer extra suppression, or whatever. I'm just throwing a few ideas out here. Personally it doesn't matter to me, I don't use suppression at all. I just rush the aliens and kill without mercy. So far playing Xenonauts all I need is 3 Rocket Launchers and everyone else gets Precision Rifle and Grenade assortments. Taking down small craft with a crew of 20 cesean guards is quite fun, although I always leave with at least 1 injured person (as it should be). Rockets provide good suppression as a side bonus. Edited January 4, 2013 by HoboRed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 But suppression is just a property of normal gunfire and your maximum burst is currently five rounds. Assuming you can fire two bursts per turn (~45 AP per burst if I recall) you would only need to reload every ten turns. The up side to that is it gives a potential fire rate increase to the weapon as you don't need to take time out to reload so often. Of course those values are subject to change in the same way ammo capacity is. I can't ever see a 50 round burst in this game using the current mechanics though, it would be completely devastating to anything in front of it for a relatively low AP cost (unless all other weapons had a similar increase in shots per AP). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboRed Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Okay cool. I like the fact that suppression can also be achieved with flashbangs and rockets. Does it work with hand grenades too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 (edited) Yeah grenades also do suppression damage. About as much a single AR shot, take a few of them to make much difference to a tougher enemy. *edit* For comparison they do 20 suppression, flashbangs do 120. Edited January 4, 2013 by Gauddlike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 (edited) Yeah grenades also do suppression damage.About as much a single AR shot, take a few of them to make much difference to a tougher enemy. *edit* For comparison they do 20 suppression, flashbangs do 120. Seems wrong. Shouldn't a "real" grenade do at least as much suppression as a flashbang?? The shock wave and noise has got to be at least as bad from a real grenade. I'd be more scared if I was going to be turned into a shredded cheese on top of that. Edited January 4, 2013 by StellarRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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