ElricDeMelnibone

Variety in "human" weapon types or "we don't all use the M16"

35 posts in this topic

Hello!

Nice to meet you, I'm a new user.

And I wanted to bring in a suggestion right from the start.

Instead of making it long, I'm going to make it rather quick:

Variety in "human" weapons.

There are SO many modern weapons out there in the world.

And there are so many weapons that most people prefer over the M16, for example.

Yet, in the game, so far we only have the M16.

Now I suggest, for more variety, to add at least some more basic weapons to the game in later builds.

Like the G3, the old German Battle Rifle.

Or the FAMAS, the AK-47, and and some other popular weapons.

Not to forget shotguns and pistols.

I'm not demanding a huge load of weapons to be made that will become obsolete later in the game anyway.

But at least some variety would be nice, at least 3 different weapons, please?

I would really appreciate and love that.

If you don't consider it worth the effort, then so be it. I can live with that. But at least think about it.

Thanks,

Elric

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Chris has mentioned possibly implementing Soviet weapons as a Kickstarter incentive, if they ever do one, and that got a lot of community support.

However, you've got to keep in mind that this is an indie project with finite resources. As nice as additional weapon variety would be, it's simply not practical for the devs to add what are essentially reskins of existing weaponry over adding requisite higher-tier weaponry.

I do agree that it'd be nice, though, which is why I hope the Kickstarter plan goes well; I'd love to see that Soviet weapons pack come to fruition.

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Are you simply looking for reskins or do you want functional variaty as well? Would it bring anything to the game? Or are you simply wondering why your soldiers arent using that "skin" instead?

The additional weapons are easy to add to the game but very timeconsumeing because of the way the character model sprites work.

If it isnt included in the release it will most certainly be modded in later if someone really wants it.

Edited by Gorlom

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Yeah, the reason there's only one type of assault rifle is that I don't think there'd be enough in-game difference between an M16 and an AK-47 to warrant including both. Their stats would be too similar to be worth the added micromanagement, in my view. So for the sake of accessability, I won't include any additional weapons in vanilla Xenonauts.

EDIT - Also, you're aware there is already a pistol, shotgun, assault rifle, sniper rifle, machinegun and rocket launcher in the game already? Just to check - your post kinda implies you only think the M16 is available to soldiers.

However, I know lots of people are interested in this sorta thing and we've made it EXTREMELY easy to mod in new weapons to Xenonauts. To the point we're deliberately trying to have a few spare weapon tiles for people who want to add more weapons. Like, for instance...

ak2.jpg

(That's basically an example piece we've done for a Kickstarter video, specifically for the Soviet Weapon pack)

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I could start in on the various differences between the AK and the M-16, but I'll spare everyone the boring technical garbage and just say this.

In the 70s the M-16 was more likely to kill the user than the target. Very low tolerance for even casual dirtiness. forty years later it still isn't great in that regard.

I will go so far as to say the AK-47 packs considerably more punch, but supposedly loses accuracy over range. Haven't seen that personally, but I don't try to play sniper of God with mine. Within the ranges the game is played at, I doubt there would be a noticeable accuracy difference.

Edited by Montie

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Biggiest different between the two is the size of the round

M16 = 5.56 rounds

AK47 = 7.62 rounds

and besides the fact that the AK is a lot more resilient to harsh environments.

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I love you guys - you make my dream come true! :) Good old X-Com with weapons NATO-USSR! Thank you very much!!!

Yeah, the reason there's only one type of assault rifle is that I don't think there'd be enough in-game difference between an M16 and an AK-47 to warrant including both.

However, we are currently two types of interceptor - the American F-17 and Soviet F-32 ;)

Their stats would be too similar to be worth the added micromanagement, in my view. So for the sake of accessability, I won't include any additional weapons in vanilla Xenonauts.

Yes, but some things can be different. For example, the AK may be less accurate, but to be able Auto shot twice (use less TU) from the turn and have more power shots (if hit the target).

By the way, we're evenings still playing the old (first), "Ghost Recon", the game has a M-16 and AK-47. From M-16 can shoot in short bursts - 3 rounds. Though a trifle, but good variety to the gameplay.

(That's basically an example piece we've done for a Kickstarter video, specifically for the Soviet Weapon pack)

So Soviet Weapon Pack there? If so, why not just add it to the game?

Edited by S.Alex

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The Soviet pack has not been made yet, it may be done if the devs have enough cash and time to do it.

At least that is the way I read it, could be wrong.

The point is more that having multiple assault rifles with tiny differences in stats doesn't really do much for the game.

It will almost certainly be added in by mods after release though.

Currently an assault rifle has a damage rating of 25, pistol has 20 and the big machine gun has 40.

The weapons have their own roles.

If you want something shorter range that take less AP to fire take a pistol, if you want something that does more damage take a machine gun.

Having a choice of assault rifles with tiny variations in damage and accuracy might be nice but I would prefer to see it modded in rather than something the devs should be spending time on creating and balancing.

Hopefully if the Soviet weapon pack gets done they will be separate weapons so the stats can be tweaked independantly from the current ones.

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yeah the main difference will be the increase in tech, so going from ballistic to laser, not ak47 - m16 if that makes sense. The game is meant to encourage technological progression.

Also, nice looking work Chris and co.!

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However, we are currently two types of interceptor - the American F-17 and Soviet F-32 ;)

I don't see your point? They are significantly different. the modified American fighter has improved armor, mobility and cannons for close range dog fighting. The MiG has less armor no cannons and stronger missiles to be able to shoot down the big UFO's the F-17 cant shoot down.

The 2 aircrafts fill 2 different roles unlike 2 assult rifles. The way the game is currently designed wouldnt let 2 assult rifles be different enough to fill 2 roles without infringing on the other weapons present in the game.

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The 2 aircrafts fill 2 different roles unlike 2 assult rifles. The way the game is currently designed wouldnt let 2 assult rifles be different enough to fill 2 roles without infringing on the other weapons present in the game.

Ok, I understand how the dev's implemented a weapons system, and why do not a greater variety of small guns. I agree, we should let them finish the game. More variety can realy add modmakers :)

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For the Soviet addon, I think there should be a "supplier" button on the weapons screen where you can switch between NATO and Soviet weapons, which would be more aesthetic than having two assault rifles and two shotguns etc displayed. I also think they should be identical stats-wise and purely aesthetic.

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Yes, but some things can be different. For example, the AK may be less accurate, but to be able Auto shot twice (use less TU) from the turn and have more power shots (if hit the target).

Oh, I agree that it'd definitely be possible to distinguish the AK and the M-16, but I think Chris is right to say that there isn't enough practical difference between the two for an indie dev with an extremely limited budget to justify adding in the AK, as opposed to, say, the difference between a shotgun and an assault rifle.

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For the Soviet addon, I think there should be a "supplier" button on the weapons screen where you can switch between NATO and Soviet weapons, which would be more aesthetic than having two assault rifles and two shotguns etc displayed. I also think they should be identical stats-wise and purely aesthetic.

Yeah a nice and simple way to keep the interface uncluttered.

It would also allow modders to use that feature, for example adding an upgrade tab or just to keep two sets of modded weapons in separate places.

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Fine idea for a mod, but not something I'd like to see personally. One of each of machine guns, rifles, etc. is more than enough for me.

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re-skinning starting guns seems pointless to me (even with slightly different stats) at best we will use these weapons for about the first few hours of play and then toss them for better tech.

there is alot more things I rather see implemented first, before something like this.

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Gotta agree on this being minimal priority. If we were talking about a more JA2 type tactical combat with the ability to climb, sneak, shoot specific body parts, quite a bit of statistical differences between weapons, being able to find or build the perfect tool for the job is important. With this it seems a bit frivolous, though.

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The post about the M16 being more likely to kill the user got me thinking, what if we just reskinned the Assault rifle? Not the other guns, or character sprites, but the one assault rifle they'd make an AK? Since we have the soviet and American planes contributing what they're best at, we can have american and soviet guns, picking the best of each, right?

I guess what I have a problem with right now is that ALL of the weapons are nato in orgin.

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That would mean redoing all of the animation sprites for every set of armour just to change the look of the weapon.

Highly unlikely to happen unless Chris already has the animations ready for the soviet pack.

I just look at it as certain nations are providing different support.

One may send weapons while others provide more aircraft, like the Mig and Chinook.

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In the 70s the M-16 was more likely to kill the user than the target. Very low tolerance for even casual dirtiness. forty years later it still isn't great in that regard.
Somehow I don't think the majority of US casualties during the Vietnam war were caused by exploding rifles :P

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That would mean redoing all of the animation sprites for every set of armour just to change the look of the weapon.

Highly unlikely to happen unless Chris already has the animations ready for the soviet pack.

I just look at it as certain nations are providing different support.

One may send weapons while others provide more aircraft, like the Mig and Chinook.

Would you need to change the animations? At the scale of the Xenonauts sprite, I'm not sure if there is enough detail to distinguish between different types of assault rifle (I am pretty unobservant though). If it was just changing the skin on the inventory/equipment pages that should be much easier.

I mean, I think everybody should be using the FN FAL to be honest, but I'm not too hung up on it given that it's just an abstraction anyway.

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That would depend on the rifle chosen.

If you went for the classic wooden stock on an AK-47 then the animation would look wrong having a black m-16 shape.

You could get away with it if you went with the black AK variants and squinted a bit.

If you are going to pick a rifle that looks like the current one though then why not just stick with the current one?

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That would depend on the rifle chosen.

If you went for the classic wooden stock on an AK-47 then the animation would look wrong having a black m-16 shape.

You could get away with it if you went with the black AK variants and squinted a bit.

If you are going to pick a rifle that looks like the current one though then why not just stick with the current one?

I don't know to be honest, since I'm not in the camp of people who want different assault rifles (the FAL comment was mostly a joke).

The two factions seems to be

1) People who want multiple of the different types of ballistic weapon, with slight stat variations to add "tactical depth"

2) People who think that it is strange that Xenonauts is specifically said to be supplied by both NATO and Warsaw Pact countries but all of the small arms are NATO.

Personally I think point 1 is a bit of a waste of time since the first aim of the players will be to exchange ballistics for laser. Point 2 I can see a bit more, which is why I was mentioning just swapping the main picture in the inventory but leaving stats/animations the same.

To be honest I think it's best left in the hands of modders

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Yeah, the reason there's only one type of assault rifle is that I don't think there'd be enough in-game difference between an M16 and an AK-47 to warrant including both. Their stats would be too similar to be worth the added micromanagement, in my view. So for the sake of accessability, I won't include any additional weapons in vanilla Xenonauts.

EDIT - Also, you're aware there is already a pistol, shotgun, assault rifle, sniper rifle, machinegun and rocket launcher in the game already? Just to check - your post kinda implies you only think the M16 is available to soldiers.

However, I know lots of people are interested in this sorta thing and we've made it EXTREMELY easy to mod in new weapons to Xenonauts. To the point we're deliberately trying to have a few spare weapon tiles for people who want to add more weapons. Like, for instance...

ak2.jpg

(That's basically an example piece we've done for a Kickstarter video, specifically for the Soviet Weapon pack)

Might I suggest a detailed Soviet weapons pack DLC? Typically, I am a firm believer against DLC however your a fledgling developer without millions of dollars and baby souls at your disposal. After Xenonauts is complete setup a very detailed DLC with 3-4 additional weapons per class for like 6 dollars. don't do that lame EA bullshit where you sell three reskins for 10 bucks. After this game makes the true light of day people are going to want more and rather than a sequel why not do tremendous updates with dlc and or a huge expansion pack? Also I want the option to turn on psycic powers for humans. It was something I always thought was cool from the first game and would appreiciate at least an option. Oh one more thing are the melee attack with rifles a bayonet attack? Looking forward to the release (and more weapons!)

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