OP Reapers

[legit1337]

You took the words out of my mouth. In the OG, the AI had no sense of timing, so the they'd run to attack even if they couldn't reach your guys. At least half the time that left them standing out in the open begging to be gunned down. The Reapers in Xenonauts actually know what they're doing. That makes them WAY more dangerous.

Perhaps I spoke too soon.

They should be mindless terror units. Cover, tactics, and especially strategy should not be used by them. They should swarm the nearest xenonaut and that should be the extent of their "planning".

Having an intelligent enemy with those kind of abilities is broken beyond measure. They should be attack dogs, nothing more. Otherwise the aliens would toss them plasma rifles and use them as line troops instead of sebbies/caesans.

A lightning fast, cunning, physically powerful soldier who is absolutely deadly in close combat and can wield a ranged weapon intelligently?(if they are capable of tactics they are capable of that) Why use anything else in your alien army?

Hell, the tank is the human equivalent to a "terror unit" and the only reason we don't use armies of them instead of infantry, apart from the prohibitive cost, is that they get mangled in close quarters.

Everything should have a weakness.

Edited March 27, 2014 by legit1337

[Commissar Pancakes]

Having an intelligent enemy with those kind of abilities is broken beyond measure. They should be attack dogs, nothing more. Otherwise the aliens would toss them plasma rifles and use them as line troops instead of sebbies/caesans.

Just because they can hunt does not mean that they instantly are the perfect solder. Their intelligence level most likely would have been gained either through programming or (more likely) the fact that they evolved as an ambush hunter. And because this is how they reproduce they would have evolved it to have the greatest amount of success as possible, overspecializing into this and essentially shunning any other type of fighting capability.

As for being an "attack dog", even a dog knows when to attack and to retreat. Look at wolf tactics and how they are able to bring down such large animals as moose. There is intelligence there, but not enough to utilize a firearm.

[legit1337]

Just because they can hunt does not mean that they instantly are the perfect solder. Their intelligence level most likely would have been gained either through programming or (more likely) the fact that they evolved as an ambush hunter. And because this is how they reproduce they would have evolved it to have the greatest amount of success as possible, overspecializing into this and essentially shunning any other type of fighting capability.

As for being an "attack dog", even a dog knows when to attack and to retreat. Look at wolf tactics and how they are able to bring down such large animals as moose. There is intelligence there, but not enough to utilize a firearm.

Of course they are certainly going to have a low level cunning. But I was under the impression that the reapers were displaying a tactical sophistication that should be beyond them.

[Commissar Pancakes]

Can't say I've noticed too much of that. The again, I usually assign them the highest target priority when spotted and don't have my troops lay off the triggers until they're a purple smudge on the ground...

[Amaror]

Can't say I've noticed too much of that. The again, I usually assign them the highest target priority when spotted and don't have my troops lay off the triggers until they're a purple smudge on the ground...

They are pretty darn intelligent.

I could swear they often even hid behind corners, just so they can run out and fuck up my guys.

This mind not actually be intelligence, but rather coincidence but it happened rather often.

[legit1337]

All I'm saying is that the OPness of reapers may lay in them being TOO intelligent, as opposed to their abilities being too powerful.

[Gauddlike]

An intelligent enemy is dangerous, a powerful enemy is dangerous, a powerful, intelligent enemy is more than twice as dangerous.

As legit suggests maybe giving the reapers simpler AI would be a useful balance to their other strengths if it is possible.

If they are less careful on the advance or get fixated on a target so they are more likely to leave themselves vulnerable to support fire then they have a weakness to exploit.

[StellarRat]

An intelligent enemy is dangerous, a powerful enemy is dangerous, a powerful, intelligent enemy is more than twice as dangerous.

As legit suggests maybe giving the reapers simpler AI would be a useful balance to their other strengths if it is possible.

If they are less careful on the advance or get fixated on a target so they are more likely to leave themselves vulnerable to support fire then they have a weakness to exploit.

It would be a lot simpler just to reduce their speed or increase the % TU for them to attack. I don't have a problem with them being "smart". Personally, I hate nerfed AI in everyway, but I have no problem with smart weaker enemies.

[Gauddlike]

That depends on what you mean by 'nerfed' AI.

If they were just made to act stupidly then it wouldn't be much of a challenge but a simpler AI is not necessarily 'nerfed' it could just be more focused on its goals with less regard for other factors, like the target fixated predator it is representing.

AI that adequately conveys the personality of the unit it is attached to while providing a challenge is much better to me than a much 'smarter' AI that doesn't reflect the tactics it is supposed to.

I guess I just don't see reapers as smart but weak enemies like melee ceasans, I see them as predators that come charging out of the dark to tear and rend.

The simple solution doesn't always provide the best results.

I don't really mind either way though as long as both are considered.

[StellarRat]

...I see them as predators that come charging out of the dark to tear and rend...

They'll still charge out of the darkness and tear and rend, it just won't be quite as easy for them. Even if they could only move 5 tiles per turn they'd still be very deadly if they came around a corner (or you did) and they rended and tore you! I'm just proposing to nerf their range of operations somewhat by slowing them down a bit. I like the idea of "smart" reaper hiding somewhere until it can jump my troops, think "Aliens"...Besides, nothing says these Reapers need to be exactly like the Chysalids in the OG. Edited March 27, 2014 by StellarRat

[Gauddlike]

Chrysalids had a chance to fail their attacks I believe and tended to wander around randomly at times.

I have no objection to Reapers being smarter than that

[Max_Caine]

And wasn't it one of GJ's stated intents to make everyone fear the reaper?

[Gauddlike]

And now I have the blue oyster cult song stuck in my head, thanks Max

[legit1337]

They'll still charge out of the darkness and tear and rend, it just won't be quite as easy for them. Even if they could only move 5 tiles per turn they'd still be very deadly if they came around a corner (or you did) and they rended and tore you! I'm just proposing to nerf their range of operations somewhat by slowing them down a bit. I like the idea of "smart" reaper hiding somewhere until it can jump my troops, think "Aliens"...Besides, nothing says these Reapers need to be exactly like the Chysalids in the OG.

It makes more sense to fear their abilities, rather than the intelligence behind them. Much like the OG chrysallids. Reapers don't have to be a carbon copy of chrysallids. But they should be more than simply analogous.

A predatory animal, while it may be cunning, should not be showing signs of tactical sophistication, such as taking cover or selective targeting of opponents. A wolf doesn't realize that a gun is dangerous, or that it should attack the guy with a rocket launcher first because he can hurt a lot more wolves then the guy with the pistol can. Those kind of concepts are only comprehensible to near human intelligences.

Edited March 28, 2014 by legit1337

[dpelectric]

And now I have the blue oyster cult song stuck in my head, thanks Max

Wouldn't it be great if the opening guitar riff to that song started playing every time a reaper bull-rushed you? Then while his blades ripped open your chest, you could happily sing along "baby, I'm your man..."

[fearpils]

It makes more sense to fear their abilities, rather than the intelligence behind them. Much like the OG chrysallids. Reapers don't have to be a carbon copy of chrysallids. But they should be more than simply analogous.

A predatory animal, while it may be cunning, should not be showing signs of tactical sophistication, such as taking cover or selective targeting of opponents. A wolf doesn't realize that a gun is dangerous, or that it should attack the guy with a rocket launcher first because he can hurt a lot more wolves then the guy with the pistol can. Those kind of concepts are only comprehensible to near human intelligences.

I've never seen them pick priority targets or use cover. i have seen them retreat when they saw my men and couldn't get to them/single civilians where better targets.

I see them more like the seeker from enemy within where they attack stragglers and are very opportunistic.

However, if i end up with a terror mission in the dark, and see a sebby, i get very scared .

[ventuswings]

Honestly, Reapers are always going to get "OP" corner kills no matter how hard they get nerfed. Though perhaps specialization of Reaper into stalking ambusher is interesting development that differentiates it from Chryssalids that served as pure shock troops that had no problem standing on its own at the open field (on contrary, Reapers are immediately neutralized without sight-blockers since they can be suppressed).

Hell, considering that role, improving their stealth AI so player have reason to fear complicated indoor environment would be pretty cool. Even now you can see them charging forward then stopping right next to the soldier due to having no TU for attack, instead of falling back to the darkest pit and waiting for next opportunity.

EDIT

It makes more sense to fear their abilities, rather than the intelligence behind them.

I don't know, I thought alien was pretty cool. Intelligence tailored toward predatory ambush is far more scary than mindless banzai attacks for me (especially since Reaper do not have health - and now TU - to reliably support the latter tactic).

Edited March 28, 2014 by ventuswings

[Gauddlike]

Latest experimental build has their attack TU cost upped from 25% to 35% so lacking enough TUs to attack may become more common.

[frank_walls]

I like the way the Reapers are working now. I see them moving under cover to get close enough to attack. Sometimes my guys squeeze off shots and drop them, but sometimes they work their way close enough to get someone.

My issue is now with the mutated humans. Those are really the bastards to kill. If you don't have enough guys lined up to shoot the Reaper after you shoot the outer layer off you're in trouble. I had 3 guys surrounding a mutated civilian - 2 of which had full TU and were within 1 to 4 squares away. Two of my guys had shields and laser pistols and fired 6 times between the 2 of them. Only 2 of those 6 shots hit the mark. Then the real reaper popped out. The sniper had full TU and was crouching 4 squares away. 2 snap shots and both missed! The reaper then turned both of my shield guys into mutants - ESC - Load Game - try again.

I guess that issue really wasn't with the Reaper itself, but more with the fact that my guys missed so many damn close range shots. I thought the pistol guys would have enough chances to kill it, and the sniper could pull an aimed shot to finish it off.

[lifehole]

IMO it would be better if they did a ton of damage, and if they got a killing blow it would zombify. Being able to insta zombify my combat shielded guys or predator armored guys at the start of the mission out of nowhere is just annoying.

[Mercent]

Buzzard scout to the rescue! A man on wings flitting around in the air allows me to spot the reapers most of the time..unless it is night time. If only we could research night vision devices..

[thixotrop]

Buzzard scout to the rescue! A man on wings flitting around in the air allows me to spot the reapers most of the time..unless it is night time. If only we could research night vision devices..

If soldiers would have night googles (it was called off some time ago) the aliens would have non-LOS mass mind control kill.

[Mercent]

Hmmm isn't mind control non-LOS already? It is squad-sight no?

[Gijs-Jan]

My roommate decided to print them out.

Btw, Reapers shouldn't approach unless they are certain of an attack/kill.
The cover/hiding behavior should be easy to implement by adjusting the pathing weights.

*Edit: wrong thread*

[crusherven]

It makes more sense to fear their abilities, rather than the intelligence behind them. Much like the OG chrysallids. Reapers don't have to be a carbon copy of chrysallids. But they should be more than simply analogous.

A predatory animal, while it may be cunning, should not be showing signs of tactical sophistication, such as taking cover or selective targeting of opponents. A wolf doesn't realize that a gun is dangerous, or that it should attack the guy with a rocket launcher first because he can hurt a lot more wolves then the guy with the pistol can. Those kind of concepts are only comprehensible to near human intelligences.

Actually, I'm pretty sure wolves can know guns are dangerous (particularly if they've been trained). Just like dogs, they're very observant, and contrary to what you seem to think, animals can recognize objects. Have you never owned a cat or dog? My uncle owns a dog that yaps a lot, and they have a spray bottle they use to shut it up. You don't have to actually spray the dog, though--it shuts up as soon as you reach for the bottle. We could easily train an animal with the intelligence of a dog to attack a man carrying a rocket launcher before a man with a pistol, and staying out of sight until you are very close is the kind of good sense most predators exhibit.