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Has the community dragged this back to being X1 with a new coat of paint?

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I can only speak for myself but I am pretty happy to see that Xenonauts 2's core gameplay mechanics are returning to a Xenonauts 1/Classic XCom base. While X2 was promising to deliver radically changed gameplay, it was also starting to look much too similar to X-Com 2012 so either way it would have felt, at least to me, a rehash if an existing game. Personally, as I prefer the additional complexity and micromanagement of the more traditional XCom style game, I've put in more hours into X1 than I have into X-Com 2. What I am hoping for with X2 is a game that stays true to the vision of X1 with improvements on some of the issues that stood out in the originals, such as janky combat mechanics on the tactical layer due to the choice of game engine, and perhaps more depth in the choice of viable weapons in the end game, rather than a straight and bland Tier 1 > Tier 2 >Tier 3 progression that seems to plague all XCom-like games.

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8 hours ago, Devrailis said:

And perhaps more depth in the choice of viable weapons in the end game, rather than a straight and bland Tier 1 > Tier 2 >Tier 3 progression that seems to plague all XCom-like games.

Try UFO:Afterlight.  I think they got many things right, especially its armour and weapon variety, diverse but not overwhelming.  You need to switch both, kind of forced but in a sensible ("realistic") way.

I am counting on X2's modular weapon and armour system to do the same, or at least lay a good enough foundation to mod the rest :D
A seemingly minor system enhancements sometimes go a long way.

 

Edited by Sheepy

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On ‎10‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 1:25 PM, Alienkiller said:

Trashman, I don´t say 1 super-special base. The Mainbase have to be special with all Workshops (Production for Parts of every Description, Weapons, Armors etc.) Laboratorys (Research of Everything), Coordination (Everything from Missions, UFO-Interception, etc.) and so on.

All others Bases are Cannonfodder, because they are Front-Bases. There are the Main-Interceptors, Hangars, Technical Personal, Radars / Scanners, Soldiers. Upgrades on Interceptors and the Buildup from in-house development-Interceptors / Troopships will be fully completed here from the produced parts of the Mainbase Workshops.

What I mean is, that the Frontbases don´t have Workshops and Laboratorys.

 

What the Airfight / Intercepton belongs we will see then. It should come out with the new Version (V.9). I have only raise concerns that X2 will be only a small Modernised Version from X1 with the Things come in again without changes. Best Example is the Base-Buildup Concept without the Change as Main-Base (Atlas-Base) and Cannonfooder-Bases with Buildup-Limitations (no Labs, Worshops).

 

How is that not a special base? It's only one that actually matters

I never liked, nor ever will like that "all eggs into one basket" concept. It makes no sense and there's no real risk involved.

Research should be globalized (all science labs can work on the same project, regardless of which base they are in. The magic of internet and data sharing.)

Production should be localized, so you would have production bases, with a practical limit as to how many people can work on something (simply throwing more people on something only works up to a point, especially when working on smaller things, like a rifle)

Resources should be shared between bases with the logistics abstracted. Could be as simple as a connection/line between bases that simulates supply lines. Aliens could attack those lines damaging your supply lines, which would impart temporary maluses to the base (increased production time, staff morale penalty). Would make SAM sites more valuable and give your interceptors more to do - like chasing off enemy craft. Could even generate convoy defense missions.

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Ok, yeah, I really like the idea of needing to defend supply lines. Maybe you could schedule regular patrols, it would give cheaper jets more of a long term role as recon, since I assume they won't be as utterly baller after upgrades this time around. 

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The way I'd implement it is that each base has it's own storage, but as long as supply lines are in tact, every base has access to materials from other bases - although there is a small fixed penalty when working on things were resources aren't local (like +5 hours to production time, to simulate shipping time).

Supply lines would work sorta like the internet routing - as long as one base can trace a connection to another, it can get resources from it. Players would place supply lines between bases manually and each supply line would have to be maintained. There would be a cost associated with it, and the distance would also factor into the cost (so a 4000km long supply line might cost 4000$ monthly to maintain). What this means that you CAN connect every base to every other base, but it would cost you a lot, so it might not be the most optimal solution.

 

The beauty of this system is that it's simple and intuitive without being clunky and requireing tons of micro-managment. With the added bonus of it tying into the goescape and battlescape, due to supply lines being interractable.

In terms of generated missions, alien could attack in 2 ways: air strike or ground ambush.

Ground ambush would generate open maps with roads or train tracks, where a train or military convoy would be on the defensive. AI controlled soliders, in the form of train/convoy defense, would be on the map. Possibly a crashed cargo plane map?

Air strike would be geoscape only, with your interceptors scrambled to defend, with convoy escorts and local defenses buying time.

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7 hours ago, TrashMan said:

With the added bonus of it tying into the goescape and battlescape, due to supply lines being interractable.

I like any idea that makes the geoscape more interesting. Currently, the only spatial element of the geoscape is radar coverage and interceptor range. In terms of something that can make X2 stand out, from X1 and from XCOM, the geoscape has a lot of potential. 

At the moment the geoscape is a very un-stimulating environment. For a game that falls into the strategy genre, this feels like a bit of a waste. 

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It also might be a fun thing to assign rookies or some such to defend shipments, leading to a small fight if ambushed or something 

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That might actually be a more preferable scenario, since you would have troops on the ground ASAP, rather than having to send your troop transport. Basically, you'd have no friendly casualties or cargo losses at mission start, which you would/should have if you're scrambling to assist.

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emdersblade: if you think so, then play the Predecessor. X2 have to be an much better game and not a clone. In the 90´s you could do that, but not 2019.

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7 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

In the 90´s you could do that

Yup, a new coat of paint is precisely what they did when they released Terror from the Deep back in '95. An hey, people loved that game. 

Although you know what was the best thing about TftD? It brought the xcom franchise one step closer to Apocalypse.  

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Had played it about the new Storyline and the Half-Destruction from Earth at the End, which gives Parts for 2 more sequels. TftD was an similar Continue-Story to X-Com EU. The Timelimit and Publisher made the Game a same Gamestile as the Predecessor.

Yes, it show Fights over and under Water and such. But what made TftD more angry to the People was the Resarch (if you done a mistake in Research you had to start the game complete new) or you had a correct save, which was impossible without the printet Research-Tree-Solution.

If you had to beginn 40 or 50 Times, then your Love goes away. That had to be to about 70 or 80 % to the People which buyed it. The others may love it, but what a price they had to pay?

So you mean UFO: EU which love the people (the first Game) on what Xenonauts bases on.

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The new user face is a little bland, hope they are working on some think more immersive, that gets you into the zone!!

We seem to have stepped back and not moved forward.

We live in hope!!!

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11 hours ago, Ninothree said:

Yup, a new coat of paint is precisely what they did when they released Terror from the Deep back in '95. An hey, people loved that game.

To be fair, Tftd is a bit more than a new coat of paint.

  • Two-tier missions are far more common.
  • Melee weapons.
  • Engagements may happens both on land and sea.
  • A bigger research tree... which messed up.

The new coat of paint is also more than a high def repaint.  The undersea tileset and the tight ships creates a more terrifying atmosphere, true to the name.

So, yeah, I'd say X2 can use a few enhancements too.  I haven't heard of any discussions of two tier missions in X2.

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I didn't know that about TftD. I got through a mission or two after playing the original and gave up because I thought it was just going to be a clone. Still, sounds like it was essentially the same game. Maybe this is something akin to Moore's law. A five-year gap between a game and its sequel back in the 90s would have seen far less of a step improvement than you'd get today.

I am bit concerned that X2 will not make a big enough stride. I'm sure it'll be a great improvement, but personally, I'm a bit tired of the gameplay. I first played UFO defence 25 years ago, and I spent a little too much time on the Firaxis remakes. For me at least, another round in this genre needs to do something really interesting. A lot of the community's complaints have been to veto streamlining, but the changes I'm hoping for are more ambitious. e.g. XCOM2 having a stealth mechanic, or Apoc refocusing the strategy layer. Overall, I think X2 will service fans who are looking for something authentic or faithful.

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I agree that it could use more mechanics to spice things up, but that's why I'm hoping they'll lean into nation relationships more to add a sort of simple diplomacy aspect. Asking for reinforcements, or funding, or manufacturing help, maybe they can send an emergency randomized team for you to command, but not necessarily keep for emergencies, etc. All XDiv needed to do was more than double the amount of units and randos on the map plus bulk them up a little, and it felt really unique when you'd roll up with your tank and shield wall to see a squad of soldiers holding a building against some Ceseans, while several civilians hunkered behind them. 

 

X2 seems to be taking some good steps, adding things like more varied unit types, more mission types, overworld missions, etc. These are enough, when refined, in my book to make a good sequel. 

As a kind of side note example, take a look at Armored Core. They made more or less the same game with tiny tweaks that was made for a small audience for about 15 years. Then for the last 5, they only released 2 games with radical changes, because a few folks asked. They were technically the best selling, and were fantastic games still, but it broke the fanbase against each other.  We haven't seen a sequel or news of the franchise in years. 

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X2 have to be 1.000 % better than it´s predecessor. And it looks like now it will be the same like it´s predecossor with some little improvements. ATM it dosen´t make a difference if you play the predecessor or the new version downgrade to the old stile. 

The developers of the game have done a huge amount of work in order to try and make a game that is a worthy successor to Xenonauts, one that has improvements in many areas. And while some of what they had hoped to be able to provide has turned out not to be possible, even with the game in the state it is in V9.1 it's already a much better looking game that plays very well. I certainly don't think this is downgrade-Development. The graphics are much better, the ability to actually shoot your way into a UFO is a huge improvement, and there are many more small things at both the strategy and tactical level that are quality of life improvements. And as Chris said above, they were struggling with stability issues and had to get back to a stable platform before they could start adding more new things again.

Yes, the community here has called out many things that have perhaps taken the direction more back towards X1 and the way it played, but that's a good thing in some respects. If a new feature simply isn't going to work, then would you want that in the game? It's also important to remember that the team at Goldhawk is a small one. Firaxis has hundreds of people working on the X-Com games they produce, and can double that during the most intensive development times as they move staff around from one major project to the next. The Goldhawk team is only a few people, so we have to be understanding with what they can do. The mantra of software development is that there are three main things that can be allocated for any given project - features, time, and resources. If we want certain features and resources are constrained, then it will take a much longer time. Or if we want the game quickly then only so many features can be implemented. In addition, a developer like Goldhawk only has so much money beyond the number of developers, so eventually they will need to ship something so that they can stay in business. So while I agree that I want X2 to be a game that is better than X1, there are many ways to judge how that actually looks.

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On 10/23/2019 at 5:02 AM, Sheepy said:

Try UFO:Afterlight.  I think they got many things right, especially its armour and weapon variety, diverse but not overwhelming.  You need to switch both, kind of forced but in a sensible ("realistic") way.

I am counting on X2's modular weapon and armour system to do the same, or at least lay a good enough foundation to mod the rest :D
A seemingly minor system enhancements sometimes go a long way.

 

Man now i wonder, how cool would it be if we had a Oilrig / Sea platform tileset / map, and island tilesets and maps, and maybe tankers, some sort of special missions

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On 11/1/2019 at 9:57 AM, Alienkiller said:

emdersblade: if you think so, then play the Predecessor. X2 have to be an much better game and not a clone. In the 90´s you could do that, but not 2019.

That is precisely what creators of new XCOM series thought, and failed at. There were no worthy clones of old UFO games until Xenonauts. Everybody who wanted to remake UFO with so called "modern standards" have achieved simple and boring products. X1 on the other hand was exactly what was so much needed - to cut thing short, a repainted original UFO. As an old fan of the original UFO games I was so disappointed in every attempt to recreate UFO Enemy Unknown including the latest XCOM series. I thought it's maybe the age, that makes me unable to get that level of immersion as in the old days, but then I've found Xenonauts, and it was like I have returned to the times when I was a teenager, so good was X1. I seriously wish that X2 was almost exactly as X1 but with a new paint.

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I'll post a link to our plans for the Modular Armour here: https://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/index.php?/topic/20813-modular-armour-system/

I think that is a change that sounds quite small when you just mention the name, but might have a rather large effect on gameplay. As I mentioned in an earlier post I feel like a lot of this discussion comes down to what you consider a "big" gameplay change and for a lot of people I think a few well chosen upgrades such as the Modular Armour in addition to a general refresh of the graphics will be plenty to justify the existence of X2 - but that's a question of individual taste, really.

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I'd be keen to hear Chris' thoughts on the ideas I suggested earlier in this thread, if at all possible :)

 

Quote

I regularly check these forums but rarely post; this thread’s title did make me take notice though, because I’ve been thinking along the same lines for a while. I bought into the earlier bold ideas for X2, and although they may have eventually proven to be unfeasible, I do feel a bit disappointed every time something is “rolled back”.

Still, I’m sure Chris and co. will make something awesome. I suggested some ideas a while back for X1 that didn’t make the cut, but in the spirit of positive contribution, will throw them into the hat again 

My main idea is to have a new mission type where you’re exclusively controlling local forces. The situation could be something like an allied military bunker is under attack by aliens. There’s not enough time for the Xenonauts to get there, but there’s a radio link set up so you (the player) can command the local forces. Imagine controlling a large team troops armed with basic weapons (rifles, shotguns etc.) against a horde of Reapers. It could lead to great Aliens-esque missions. The odds of your team all getting wiped out are high, but in contrast to regular missions, it’s not a game over / rage quit situation if that happens.

There are a lot of ways in which you could use this kind of a premise. Maybe if your troops hold the base’s hanger for x turns, then your main Xenonaut troops turn up as reinforcements and take the fight to the enemy. Or if the aliens take the radio room then you lose contact and it’s mission over.

Basically, I think this could be a way of mixing up the gameplay as a sequel arguably should, and adding more variety in a way that hopefully isn’t a huge burden from the development side of things (i.e. it would use existing assets such as character models). 

Separate to this, secondary mission objectives that crop up unexpectedly (e.g. rescuing a civilian and carrying them back to the chopper) would add more variety to core missions too. I made a huge list of options in a forum thread what must have been literally years ago, but can’t find it now!
 

Quote

 

 

Edited by Ogilvy the Astronomer

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On 11/10/2019 at 8:17 PM, Ogilvy the Astronomer said:

I'd be keen to hear Chris' thoughts on the ideas I suggested earlier in this thread, if at all possible :)

might I suggest linking to them again if you ask people to respond to them, its faster and easier then digging through the thread to find someones suggestions. 

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Xenonauts 2 get new Features and Specials in, but yes the Base Construction-System and Airfights get a very good compromise as Reworked Versions from the old game. If the remaining Rework get in we all can live with that. And after the remaining Bugs in the Airfights get fixed (Navpoints-Setting is here the Keyword) for your Interceptors than it is a very nice and interessting Airfight-Concept.

If you know the old Airfight Concept from first Xenonauts (where you get your fingers broken) and get it combined with the good old X-Com / UFO Extraterestials tactical Real-Airfight Concept then you will :). But it´s still WIP, so we have to wait and see.

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