Build V18 Ground Combat Balance Discussion

[StellarRat]

I get that, but the thing you have to understand is that your perspective is completely irrelevant to the matter at hand. You're using an argument that doesn't apply to this circumstance and it is unbelievably frustrating.

We obviously see this differently. That's OK. I probably should have added that I have won nearly every battle with 0 - 2 casualties, so I don't consider the alien weapons to be absurdly accurate. If the AI improves I may well change my opinion.

[Gauddlike]

Maybe the proposed change to the accuracy formula would help here also as the aliens would use the same one.

High accuracy weapons would still be deadly, just not out to such massive ranges as they potentially can now.

[GizmoGomez]

Yeah, that's the main issue, I think. I mean, since the aliens have squad sight like us, they can shoot at guys across the map. If the accuracy drops off sharply after the effective range, then it's not gonna be a problem anymore; they're just gonna be wasting ammunition, really. They might get lucky, but it'll have to be luck and not because they're OP.

[StellarRat]

Yeah, that's the main issue, I think. I mean, since the aliens have squad sight like us, they can shoot at guys across the map. If the accuracy drops off sharply after the effective range, then it's not gonna be a problem anymore; they're just gonna be wasting ammunition, really. They might get lucky, but it'll have to be luck and not because they're OP.

Well, if you two PM Chris or do something to support the formula that would be great. I think I've done what I can without being pushy. I do think it will solve several problems. If it doesn't get changed now I can just about guarantee it will never get changed. I also believe that most people won't notice much difference in the gameplay except with long range shooting (which is what we want.)

[GizmoGomez]

Good idea. I mean, it's Chris' game, so he can do whatever he wants, really. However, he wants the game to be good, so I'm sure he'll see the benefit. I mean, unless he's got an idea hidden away, which is entirely possible, I've not seen a better idea yet.

StellarRat, has he commented about this at all?

[StellarRat]

Good idea. I mean, it's Chris' game, so he can do whatever he wants, really. However, he wants the game to be good, so I'm sure he'll see the benefit. I mean, unless he's got an idea hidden away, which is entirely possible, I've not seen a better idea yet.

StellarRat, has he commented about this at all?

I have heard nothing. But most the information was in the shot scatter thread and since that is pretty much fixed (the scatter itself) perhaps he hasn't looked at it again.

[Gauddlike]

The AI would need to check their shot accuracy before firing as well I imagine.

If they had a 5% chance to hit then firing would be a lower priority than moving to a better position.

[StellarRat]

The AI would need to check their shot accuracy before firing as well I imagine.

If they had a 5% chance to hit then firing would be a lower priority than moving to a better position.

It must do that already.

[Assoonasitis]

It must do that already.

Nope. Easy test for this: aliens have squad-sight and if one alien can spot you, every alien will fire its weapons on any given turn. Listen for the sound of alien gunfire ricocheting off of the ship's hull because the aliens inside don't recognize the fact that there's a wall between you and them and just fire because they have sight.

[Sathra]

Another result of the carnage they can inflict is that if they see one trooper they know the location of ALL of them. Not sure but I think this might need to be addressed.

[StellarRat]

Another result of the carnage they can inflict is that if they see one trooper they know the location of ALL of them. Not sure but I think this might need to be addressed.

What! That's not right. Are you sure? Are you saying if even one Xenonaut is located then the aliens know where the rest are? I don't believe that's what AI programmer said.

[StellarRat]

Nope. Easy test for this: aliens have squad-sight and if one alien can spot you, every alien will fire its weapons on any given turn. Listen for the sound of alien gunfire ricocheting off of the ship's hull because the aliens inside don't recognize the fact that there's a wall between you and them and just fire because they have sight.

Well that sounds like a bug (shooting with no LOF.) On the other hand, since firing doesn't get you spotted there is no reason for everyone NOT to fire if they don't plan to move and have enough points in reserve for reaction fire (if they care.)

[Sathra]

I've had a number of situations (especially with the damn Cruisers) where they'll shoot at my snipers that are well outside of view range from the ship.

[Gauddlike]

It must do that already.

It may do but remember that the an alien plasma cannon carried by an Andron Support still has 17% accuracy out to 100 tiles.

An accuracy check would not prevent firing using the current formula.

*edit* Unless it was done to take into account obstacles like walls which would reduce accuracy.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Gauddlike

[Max_Caine]

And now for something completely different. A man with three bottoms.

Just a quick word on reaction fire. Reaction fire is (as a I remember) a d100 roll on reflexes multiplied by the reaction modifier of the weapon held by the unit (someone correct me if I'm wrong?). Pistols and carbines have a positive reaction modifier, heavy weapons have a negative reaction modifier (you can easily test this with the laser carbine. It's modifier is quite large, it has a decent range and is cheap to shoot). The reason that aliens fire so much reaction fire is that to start with, their reflexes are either 40 (for most non-coms) or 50 (for most solider types - and that doesn't go up beyond 55), so they have either a 1 in 2 or 2 in 5 chance of making a reaction shot, which is then multipled by the positive modifier for the pistol/rifle. It's that positive modifier that makes reaction fire a lot more common with aliens, especially non-coms and low-ranking soliders. Some tweaking with those modifiers and racial stats are in order, methinks.

[Assoonasitis]

Shouldn't there also be the X-Com style check against the target's reactions score? I think in UFO:EU it was something like d% + target's reactions against reactor's reactions.

[Max_Caine]

Sir, I with some considerable surprise must direct you to the Mutal Surprise and You! thread, which you started! Chris' comment at the end indicates what he is thinking of doing.

[Assoonasitis]

Duh. Of course.

[Max_Caine]

That's okay, I think we both failed our mutal surprise roll.

[StellarRat]

And now for something completely different. A man with three bottoms.

Just a quick word on reaction fire. Reaction fire is (as a I remember) a d100 roll on reflexes multiplied by the reaction modifier of the weapon held by the unit (someone correct me if I'm wrong?). Pistols and carbines have a positive reaction modifier, heavy weapons have a negative reaction modifier (you can easily test this with the laser carbine. It's modifier is quite large, it has a decent range and is cheap to shoot). The reason that aliens fire so much reaction fire is that to start with, their reflexes are either 40 (for most non-coms) or 50 (for most solider types - and that doesn't go up beyond 55), so they have either a 1 in 2 or 2 in 5 chance of making a reaction shot, which is then multipled by the positive modifier for the pistol/rifle. It's that positive modifier that makes reaction fire a lot more common with aliens, especially non-coms and low-ranking soliders. Some tweaking with those modifiers and racial stats are in order, methinks.

Well, the AI programming has a great deal to do with this. I hardly ever reserve points for reaction fire, while the AI always does for the most part. I would expect more reaction from the aliens as they are generally on the defensive while the Xenonauts are generally trying to find and kill them, regardless of weapon modifiers.

[crusherven]

Well, the AI programming has a great deal to do with this. I hardly ever reserve points for reaction fire, while the AI always does for the most part. I would expect more reaction from the aliens as they are generally on the defensive while the Xenonauts are generally trying to find and kill them, regardless of weapon modifiers.

Although it might be interesting if certain types of aliens aggressively attacked the player in a coordinated group shortly after landing.

[StellarRat]

Although it might be interesting if certain types of aliens aggressively attacked the player in a coordinated group shortly after landing.

I'm assuming/hoping that will be the case when the AI is finished.

[Max_Caine]

What would be nice is a re-balancing of how end of mission scoring is handled. At the moment, there's too strong a weighting on positive aspects. I can follow the dictum of Commissar Pancakes and scourge all presence of xenos filth from the map in a purging wall of flame and I get the equivalent of a slap on the wrist and a few points knocked off. Killed 10 civvies? Naughty boy, ten points from Griffendor. Oh, but you recovered the UFO. Well done! Have a hundred points and win the end-of-term cup!

Some ideas for negative scoring:

10 points per civvie a Xenonaut kills.

15 points per friendly AI a Xenonaut kills.

5 points per civvie or friendly AI an alien kills (because this is something you can't really prevent)

5 points per submap where 50% of all props are damaged or destroyed

10 points per submap where 75% of all props are damaged or destroyed

[GizmoGomez]

Yeah, that'd actually help to balance the rocket launcher more as well, making it less profitable to use.

[Sathra]

I've been wondering, do you not get the cash for the alien weapons if you blow the alien up? Their gear turns into scrap in the ground combat but not sure if that's actually used in the end mission screen. I'm pretty sure you lose Xenonauts gear if they get vaped by a Plasma Cannon.

That would be a downside to using explosives alot. Less loot.