Build V18 Ground Combat Balance Discussion

[Gauddlike]

That was the plan when the item destruction mechanic came in.

Don't know if it is working though.

It was suggested that it would be a good excuse to give rocket launchers an increase in damage and area because using them would endanger your profit margin.

[TheTuninator]

Did smoke grenades deal stun damage in the original X-COM? I can't remember.

[Gauddlike]

From the x-com wiki:

'Unarmoured units will take stun damage whenever they end their turn inside a cloud of smoke. The stun damage to an unarmoured unit is 1-3 points per round. Soldiers in Power Suits or Flying Suits are immune to stun effects from smoke. Even unarmoured troops will have to spend a long time in smoke before they become unconscious'

'Note - under no circumstances will enemy-controlled units take stun damage from smoke, or from incendiary action while standing in smoke. If aliens are under X-COM mind control, they will take stun damage from smoke, but never when enemy-controlled.'

[Max_Caine]

Sathra, items can be destroyed, but alien items have a high HP value. Human gear is more fragile (in comparison).

[Sathra]

Yeah. I mostly saw alien scrap metal after smacking them in the face with alenium rockets.

[nickd]

To add to the list of issues. Something seems wrong with how smoke's ability to reduce accurace is being calculated. It doesn't appear to affect long range weapons much at all so snipers hardly take much of a hit. For example a person standing 19 squares away in the open appears to have identical 95% before / after. LMGs take a much larger decrease of approximately 2/3 and finally rifles take a huge hit from 60% ish to 8%. Obviously shooter accuracy is going to play a part but it was 66/63/63 for the sniper, rifle and LMG respectively and all three were standing.

This also explains why popping smoke has 0% chance to protect you from super accurate heavy plasma fire in open maps. Interestingly the time it does have a effect on accuracy (although not on the sniper rifle) is if you are actually standing in the smoke so presently you're probably better off smoking aliens then shooting them with sniper weapons than you are using it to cover your own troops advances.

I haven't got plasma weapons to test with yet but I suspect that the smoke accuracy penalty is affected by weapon range.

Edited April 21, 2013 by nickd

[crusherven]

You're right, Max_Caine, it is pretty hard right now to get a bad rating.

[Moxar]

Another point that needs to be settled is the tech tree.

So far, I reached plasma before laser and it seems that some of us have experienced it. I know it is because of the organisation of the tech tree, but I believe it's a flaw, for two main reasons:

• First, a new player would'nt understand why a "later" technology is less powerfull than a "early" technology (Assuming he reaches plasma before laser)
  
• Second, if the player is unlucky enough to fail to recover ufo power source (as I have been, from september to january) he must fight resilient deadly alien with only balistic weapons and jackal armours. believe me, night andron terror mission are pretty hard!
  

A solution would be to "force" a scout ufo to land before the end of the second month, just as there are two crashed ufo.

[GizmoGomez]

Perhaps it could be like, "Local forces have reported a landed UFO in this area, go get it."

That way, the locals don't have to have inexplicably shot it down, and we get a totally intact power core because it landed, and wasn't shot down.

[Moxar]

Agreed... Thus, I failed, I wanted to post it in the other topic...

[Sathra]

Chris has mentioned that the power sources explode too much so it'll be toned down.

[crusherven]

I don't think it's necessary for laser to precede plasma. It didn't in EU94. As long as the research screens make it clear that laser is inferior to plasma (I think that's already the case) it shouldn't be an issue.

[Moxar]

fight alien during 4 month with only balistics, you'll se that it's a flaw

[GarenR]

Just did my first terror mission last night. Was a night time fight with 8 men all with lasers and either jackal or wolf armour. Was brutal with the entire squad dead within six or seven turns due to many one shot kills and multiple shots from across the map such that from at least one direction the troops had no cover. I only spotted one alien during the entire mission. Think this could do with a bit more of a gentle into and perhaps night vision gogles could be on the to invent list.

PS when I throw out flares I seem to need to move again in order to gain the view on what has been illuminated?

[Sathra]

You have to spend TU's before the LOS updates. Turning on the spot works as well.

There's been some discussion on having more flares for night missions.

[crusherven]

fight alien during 4 month with only balistics, you'll se that it's a flaw

I've fought androns with ballistics. It's a fun challenge.

[Sathra]

So much fun. I did it with mostly rifles, which is even more fun.​

[thothkins]

it has to be said that terror missions are great fun, despite the carnage. Whether I'll feel that way trying to win on the release version...

[Gauddlike]

It doesn't appear to affect long range weapons much at all so snipers hardly take much of a hit. For example a person standing 19 squares away in the open appears to have identical 95% before / after. LMGs take a much larger decrease of approximately 2/3 and finally rifles take a huge hit from 60% ish to 8%. Obviously shooter accuracy is going to play a part but it was 66/63/63 for the sniper, rifle and LMG respectively and all three were standing.

The LMG actually has the longest range out of those weapons so if your recall is accurate I would guess it isn't weapon range that causes the issue otherwise it would have been affected less than the precision rifle.

The LMG also has the lowest weapon accuracy modifier so for it to sit between those other weapons, which both have higher ones, it is probably not directly linked to accuracy either.

Were all of the soldiers firing at enemies covered by the same type of smoke?

Most smoke (for example from a smoke grenade) has an accuracy reduction of 20 while from a frag the smoke only has a reduction of 15.

All types share the LOS reduction of 3.

[nickd]

Were all of the soldiers firing at enemies covered by the same type of smoke?

Most smoke (for example from a smoke grenade) has an accuracy reduction of 20 while from a frag the smoke only has a reduction of 15.

All types share the LOS reduction of 3.

They were all standing side by side in a line next to each other with the target standing in the open directly in front of them, I threw multiple smoke grenades (by reloading) both on the target and in-front of the target to get averages. The number of squares of smoke between shooter and target might have had a small affect but it might have just been where the grenades were landing. As I was targeting a fellow soldier it might have been screwing the calculations but I also had a save triggering reaction fire and walked out 10 times with smoke and 10 times without and the hit ratio was more or less identical.

.

Oh and the sniper rifle was unaffected even when un-aimed so it's not just base accuracy being very high, it's definitely not applying to sniper rifles.

Edited April 23, 2013 by nickd

[crusherven]

it has to be said that terror missions are great fun, despite the carnage. Whether I'll feel that way trying to win on the release version...

For me, they're too commonplace in the current build. They should be scary and rare-ish. Right now they may or may not be scary depending on tech levels, but they're not rare at all.

[thothkins]

I got the feeling it was trying to replicate the original in that respect, in that you could expect to see them on a fairly regular basis. Personally, I find them tough even with the advanced tech, In fact, since my soldiers are that bit more advanced in later tech stages there's a certain amount of apprehension at losing the most experienced soldiers.

[Jaran]

I haven't tried the game yet because I don't want to spoil the experience for myself. But I did see part of let's play video on youtube where someone was playing start of the game. One thing he complained about and I noticed too was that there really wasn't much difference on skill levels between rookies. They all looked pretty good, or pretty bad, however you want to see it.

Not sure if it is still so, I just remembered this when reading about putting heavy weapons on everybody. Making soldier's skill levels more varied could help with forcing the player to use different weapons. There's no point to put heavy weapons on someone unless he's really strong or sniper rifles on someone who can't shoot. More varied stats also creates personality for your soldiers. Some of them are strong, some fast and rarely some of them you just want to protect because they're so talented that they're great at everything. And losing someone like that really hurts...

[thothkins]

Although that's the way it might look, I find that I definitely have certain roles for certain troops within even the starting pool. The best accuracy ratings will be the snipers, the best strength will get rocket launchers (and after a while a LMG) and the guys with the highest resilience get the shotguns (as they are much more likely to breach the UFOs).

It does make a difference on the missions, where that extra couple of steps is the difference between getting into cover and ..well... never getting there.

Bear in mind, that the soldiers represent the best the Earth's fighting forces have to offer. They are already at the top of their game fighting terrestrial foes. So there's not a huge amount to choose between them.

[Jaran]

Thanks for reply. It's good to hear that there is still enough differences between soldiers to justify different roles. That is what I was after.

And yes, your last comment about elite fighters makes perfect sense. However for me personally, in this case I would happily sacrifice some realism to gain more interesting gameplay experience through exaggerated skill differences. But like I said, I haven't played the game yet and after all this doesn't sound like an issue. Great!