Build V18 Ground Combat Balance Discussion

[Squibie]

I shot one down with two Foxtrots. 4 Al torpedos and 4 Al Sidewinders is enough.

he meant one foxtrot 4 al torpedos is enough... And in fact it is

[Gauddlike]

This thread is for ground combat balance discussion, this topic may be more suited to an air combat balance thread if one is needed.

[kigurai]

Oh man, you must be using ballistics still. Androns are...fun...without lasers. With lasers they're about the same as Sebbies, just with more plasma cannons. Then you meet the higher ranks and oh god can they suck up the weaponsfire.

I had multiple terror missions with androns+harridans that had me reloading almost every turn. Not very fun as they were a bit too superior for me. But I only had ballistics.

Which leads me to my question:

In my longest game so far I managed to get to plasma weapons way before laser weapons were available. This seems strange.

What is the path to get laser weapons? I suppose I missed something, but I had multiple occasions where I had nothing to research.

[Sathra]

First you need Alien Plasma Technology (from pistol and rifle), Alenium research (take a Scout or Corvette with intact engines, so minor damage or landed) and then Alien Alloy Production from that (not sure of the name, but something like that).

You should get Wolf at the same time. Which is odd since the description for Alloy Production suggests that you can get Wolf without Alien Plasma Tech.

I have fought Androns with ballistics and due to crashes I did it about 30 times. Ended up with 0 casualties, a few wounds. You really need MG's, shotguns and precision rifles to deal with their armour.

[Assoonasitis]

You do only need Alien Alloy Fabrication to get Wolf armour, it's just that the path you're taking (and the one I usually take) tries to get bigger guns first so you're researching the prerequisites for plasma tech first, then researching Alenium which is what is and Fabrication.

[Sathra]

The thing is, in my last game I researched plasma tech AFTER alloy fab. Didn't get the popup for wolf until after plasma tech.

[Assoonasitis]

Weeeird.

[Max_Caine]

I'll tell you why. Lasers and plasma have very different research "dependancies". As has already been written, tier 2 is dependant on some basic research into plasma weapons, but is very dependant on getting alenium research done. But you can't get that without an intact alien power source. Plasma weapons are dependant on researching enough types of alien plaasma weapon. Now, in an ideal game, you'd get an alien power source pretty quickly (with Scouts), whereas you shouldn't be able to get enough alien plasma weapon types until around the Landing Ship "era". Buuut... it's entirely possible to never get alien power source until mid-game. In fact, it's entirely possible to miss out completely on getting an alien power source. Hence, balance!

[crusherven]

Does one case or the other make the game excessively hard/easy? I'm fine with technology acquisition happening differently from game to game in theory; it keeps things interesting if it's not always the same.

[amerelium]

Sentinel armour is supposed to give better visual range - it doesn't

Aliens still got seemingly unlimited sight range, constantly superior reactions, and flawless accuracy

[Assoonasitis]

Sentinel armour is supposed to give better visual range - it doesn't

Aliens still got seemingly unlimited sight range, constantly superior reactions, and flawless accuracy

It's almost like somebody just posted a mod that deals with the absurd accuracy of alien weapons... Nah. Couldn't be.

[StellarRat]

I don't think they are "absurdly" accurate. My guys are still better shots on average. Until the AI is complete I'm not 100% sure we ought mess with alien stats too much. If they prove to be too deadly/too wimpy there are a number of ways to deal with it. Here are the first few I can think of:

1. Increase/decrease number of aliens.

2. Change alien weapon damage

3. Change alien hit points

4. Change alien vision range

5. Change alien TU requirements to fire weapons

6. Change alien weapon accuracy

7. Change alien shooting skill

8. Make alien AI dumber (I think this is a horrible choice though.)

There are so many variables that will have the same effect on the balance that it's really tough right now to think about the balance without a complete AI to "measure" against. That's why I've limited my discussion mostly to Xenonaut side of things.

[Assoonasitis]

I don't think they are "absurdly" accurate. My guys are still better shots on average. Until the AI is complete I'm not 100% sure we ought mess with alien stats too much. If they prove to be too deadly/too wimpy there are a number of ways to deal with it. Here are the first few I can think of:

1. Increase/decrease number of aliens.

2. Change alien weapon damage

3. Change alien hit points

4. Change alien vision range

5. Change alien TU requirements to fire weapons

6. Change alien weapon accuracy

7. Change alien shooting skill

8. Make alien AI dumber (I think this is a horrible choice though.)

There are so many variables that will have the same effect on the balance that it's really tough right now to think about the balance without a complete AI to "measure" against. That's why I've limited my discussion mostly to Xenonaut side of things.

Re-read. Not the aliens, the alien weapons. And they are absurdly accurate. The pistol has a 50% accuracy rating for crying out loud. Chris even said that they're way too accurate at this point because back when the AI was lazy and didn't really do anything he jacked up the weapons' accuracy stats to give the aliens a fighting chance. So... I went ahead and decreased the firing accuracy of the weapons because it was way too high.

[Assoonasitis]

Page 3 of this particular thread: http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/4532-Why-do-aliens-have-such-looooonng-lines-of-sight/page3?highlight=accurate

The carnage aliens can inflict on you is a combination of bugs, shared squad sight and having incredibly accurate weapons. I boosted them a lot when the aliens were still really stupid to make them more of a threat, but now they're utterly deadly...particularly when they were able to shoot through solid objects in the shroud with them.

We'll have better balance in the next build.

[StellarRat]

Re-read. Not the aliens, the alien weapons. And they are absurdly accurate. The pistol has a 50% accuracy rating for crying out loud. Chris even said that they're way too accurate at this point because back when the AI was lazy and didn't really do anything he jacked up the weapons' accuracy stats to give the aliens a fighting chance. So... I went ahead and decreased the firing accuracy of the weapons because it was way too high.

Yeah, I know, but what I'm getting at is that the alien weapon accuracy is only one variable out of a dozen or so that can affect the balance of the game. If we start messing about with more than one at a time it's going to change everything specially since the AI isn't complete. In fact, I'm not sure we should be doing anything to the alien vs. Xenonaut balance until the AI is DONE. It's not scientific at all to change more than one variable at a time when doing this balancing stuff. Example: Some people are advocating to reduce the HW effectiveness. Would they feel the same way if the aliens were doing better than they are now? See what I'm getting at? Edited April 16, 2013 by StellarRat

[Belmakor]

I notice that everyone pretty much just uses heavy weapons all the time - perhaps with one or two scouts and CQB troops thrown in.

Does that suggest something to you? It suggest to me that the benefits of using heavy weapons outweigh the cons considerably.

Seems to me that a movement penalty is not enough given that an MG firing 5 rounds still seems to have a pretty good chance of landing one or more hits over 5-6 tile range even after moving.

Perhaps the weight of the MG and possibly even precision rifle should be upped such that starting soldiers can only move OR fire due to the reduced TU they get due to weight penalties at the start. That way they have to earn the ability to use such a weapon through repeated use (building up TUs).

This would also mean that come Jackal armour you will still struggle to equip this and an MG on a baseline solider giving them a somewhat glass cannon trait. I think this would improve the usefulness of the humble rifle as a compromise between offering protection and firepower.

I think this would be preferable to upping the cost of firing the MG for example - what do others think?

[StellarRat]

Page 3 of this particular thread: http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/4532-Why-do-aliens-have-such-looooonng-lines-of-sight/page3?highlight=accurate

Yeah, yeah...I understand. I'm bringing up a more general point.

[Assoonasitis]

I get that but I'm addressing that dude's current complaint that at this exact time playing the game is difficult because the aliens can hit you with a pistol from clear across the map a good 30% of the time probably. Saying, "well, the game hasn't been balanced yet," is like saying to a guy looking for a ride into town to buy gas because he's out, "well, your car isn't running because you're out of gas." Great. I already knew that. The entire point of having everything in easy to access, change and replace .xml files is to let people change them. It encourages players to help find balance that works well for the game, so that Chris doesn't have to do it all on his lonesome.

[Assoonasitis]

I notice that everyone pretty much just uses heavy weapons all the time - perhaps with one or two scouts and CQB troops thrown in.

Does that suggest something to you? It suggest to me that the benefits of using heavy weapons outweigh the cons considerably.

Seems to me that a movement penalty is not enough given that an MG firing 5 rounds still seems to have a pretty good chance of landing one or more hits over 5-6 tile range even after moving.

Perhaps the weight of the MG and possibly even precision rifle should be upped such that starting soldiers can only move OR fire due to the reduced TU they get due to weight penalties at the start. That way they have to earn the ability to use such a weapon through repeated use (building up TUs).

This would also mean that come Jackal armour you will still struggle to equip this and an MG on a baseline solider giving them a somewhat glass cannon trait. I think this would improve the usefulness of the humble rifle as a compromise between offering protection and firepower.

I think this would be preferable to upping the cost of firing the MG for example - what do others think?

People who want to use rocket launchers and LMGs to solve their problems will use rocket launchers and LMGs to solve their problems. People who want to play the game in a varied and more tactical way will do so. Even after the strength gain is dialled back to non-absurd levels, if players want to just carry heavy weapons, they'll do so, regardless of penalties.

[StellarRat]

I get that but I'm addressing that dude's current complaint that at this exact time playing the game is difficult because the aliens can hit you with a pistol from clear across the map a good 30% of the time probably. Saying, "well, the game hasn't been balanced yet," is like saying to a guy looking for a ride into town to buy gas because he's out, "well, your car isn't running because you're out of gas." Great. I already knew that. The entire point of having everything in easy to access, change and replace .xml files is to let people change them. It encourages players to help find balance that works well for the game, so that Chris doesn't have to do it all on his lonesome.

I got that, but how can someone start tweaking the values when you don't know how good the alien AI is going to be? Isn't the big question whether or not the game is too easy or too hard? I just get dicey on making major changes without a truly complete AI. Really the last thing that should be balanced is ground combat. First the geoscape balance should decided on. If the geoscape is easy then ground combat should be harder and vice-versa. Actually this is giving me a headache, LOL.

[Assoonasitis]

I got that, but how can someone start tweaking the values when you don't know how good the alien AI is going to be? Isn't the big question whether or not the game is too easy or too hard? I just get dicey on making major changes without a truly complete AI. Really the last thing that should be balanced is ground combat. First the geoscape balance should decided on. If the geoscape is easy then ground combat should be harder and vice-versa. Actually this is giving me a headache, LOL.

Max is right. I'm just sick of people using arguments that don't apply. Sorry.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Assoonasitis

[Max_Caine]

Guys, guys, can everyone take a step back and chill out, yeah? It'd be pretty embarassing if Chris locked this sticked thread because people got into a raging argument on it.

[Assoonasitis]

I would like to apologize again. Apparently I get really grumpy when I haven't seen my girlfriend for four days.

[StellarRat]

I would like to apologize again. Apparently I get really grumpy when I haven't seen my girlfriend for four days.

Assoonasitis,I didn't feel insulted or attacked. I'm just trying to keep stuff in perspective.

[Assoonasitis]

I get that, but the thing you have to understand is that your perspective is completely irrelevant to the matter at hand. You're using an argument that doesn't apply to this circumstance and it is unbelievably frustrating.