Less random bullet trajectories

[Fuskpäls]

First of all, since this is my first post: LOVE this initiative to bring 'alive' good old UFO. Downloaded Xenonauts yesterday, and is thrilled to see the way you have reconstructed this brilliant game - thanks!

Second, I got one suggestion, that could improve the sense of reality in combat. When bullets miss their target, they oftentimes miss it by quite a lot! Typically it strays more than 3 tiles to the side of the target.

It would seem, that even imperial stormtroppers shouldnt be able to be that unprecise )

My suggestion would therefor be to change the calculation algorithm a bit, so that instead of straying completely of, a missed shot simply strikes next to (or follow a trajectory nearer to) the missed target, making the shot a lot more probable, while still missing the target.

I accept that grenades and handguns probably would follow more 'off' trajectories, but surely long-barelled rifles would never miss their target by more than a few feet? (it also bugged me a bit in old UFO).

My 2 cents!

Best Regards

[Gorlom]

First of all, since this is my first post: LOVE this initiative to bring 'alive' good old UFO. Downloaded Xenonauts yesterday, and is thrilled to see the way you have reconstructed this brilliant game - thanks!

Second, I got one suggestion, that could improve the sense of reality in combat. When bullets miss their target, they oftentimes miss it by quite a lot! Typically it strays more than 3 tiles to the side of the target.

It would seem, that even imperial stormtroppers shouldnt be able to be that unprecise )

My suggestion would therefor be to change the calculation algorithm a bit, so that instead of straying completely of, a missed shot simply strikes next to (or follow a trajectory nearer to) the missed target, making the shot a lot more probable, while still missing the target.

I accept that grenades and handguns probably would follow more 'off' trajectories, but surely long-barelled rifles would never miss their target by more than a few feet? (it also bugged me a bit in old UFO).

My 2 cents!

Best Regards

There are some problems with the engines collision detection (Goldhawk has picked another companies engine rather than building one themselves). Meaning any bullet that pass through any part of the square the target is in will hit whatever is in that square. (assuming the stopping chance is 100%, which it is for all the player and alien units)

That means the deviation must be more than 45 degrees in either direction if you are to be able to miss a target from one square away. If it is less than 45 degrees the miss will turn into a hit.

More on how to deal with this in the "on machine guns" thread starting with gauddlikes post.

[Commissar Pancakes]

'Course...another explanation is that they're all shooting from the hip...

[shpeka]

That means the deviation must be more than 45 degrees in either direction if you are to be able to miss a target from one square away. If it is less than 45 degrees the miss will turn into a hit.

Actually this sounds quite reasonable to me. Why would anyone miss from one square away.

A better solution would be a correction to the displayed accuracy/hit chance, depending on the distance to the target. This correction would take into account everything you have mentioned.

[erutan]

@shpeka - huh, that's.... very interesting. There's a lot of danger in getting one tile close to an alien, if it's a 100% chance to hit for a tile (or two?!) then we can tighter up the firing arc a little bit?

Barring a more elegant solution I'd be willing to accept that!

[StellarRat]

then we can tighter up the firing arc a little bit?

Barring a more elegant solution I'd be willing to accept that!

I've already asked Chris to consider this on at least three occasions. I'm not the only one that has asked either. He told me to bring it up during the beta balancing. I have a feeling it will get done, so have faith.

[Gauddlike]

A better solution would be a correction to the displayed accuracy/hit chance, depending on the distance to the target. This correction would take into account everything you have mentioned.

Also suggested this several months ago.

Sadly this would mean you would be unlikely to miss at anything but long range with most weapons.

1% chance to hit on a weapon would still guarantee hits out to mid range with a tight miss deviation arc.

That doesn't leave much scope for balancing, or racial variation on the aliens, everyone with every weapon would be a deadly shot.

It depends on how you want the game to function.

If you want few misses then tighten the arc and adjust the numbers to reflect the actual hit chance.

If you want shooting to not be a practically guaranteed hit then you need to alter the mechanism used for generating the 'false' hits caused by stopping chance rolls.

There have already been plenty of options put forward in the several threads on the subject.

Some of them involve more work or are more effective than others.

[Max_Caine]

Did anyone raise the point of missed shots deliberately made to stop short? I swear someone did, but I just can't find the post...

[GizmoGomez]

As in, every shot that isn't destined to hit the target just drops much more rapidly and hits the ground in front of them? I'd stay away from that, as missed shots can and should be able to hit other things (like my poor breacher. Stupid sniper missing all the time...), and not just do nothing when they miss. That'd take a lot out of the uncertainty of it. You could just have everyone go full auto and you'd never have to worry about hitting anything not aimed at.

[StellarRat]

Did anyone raise the point of missed shots deliberately made to stop short? I swear someone did, but I just can't find the post...

I suggested that misses could go both short and long (pass through the target tile and possibly hit something behind it) instead of just off to the sides. That way the auto fire spread could be substantially reduced without making auto fire too powerful.

[GizmoGomez]

If I remember correctly, the way the engine works is that if the projectile passes through the tile, it counts as a hit. I forget where I read that though, it was in a past thread and I'm too lazy to look it up again. I may end up looking it up again anyway, if it bugs me enough.

[Commissar Pancakes]

'Course...this just means that the troopers armed with Laser Rifles just suck at aiming since a laser will always go where it's headed...anyone else suspect that they went through the Energy Weapons classes of the Imperial School of Marksmanship ?

[a333]

the way the engine works is that if the projectile passes through the tile, it counts as a hit

It's not very good. It's very not good. Very good is it not.

With this system in place there always will be a spread in +- 1 tile scale, isn't it?

[GizmoGomez]

Yeah, 'fraid so.

[StellarRat]

That's not exactly true...if it were you wouldn't be able to fire over kneeling soldiers. Gauddlike had an explanation about how it works somewhere.

[GizmoGomez]

Again, to my understanding (which could be off), that has to do with a value that kneeling gives you, and that cover gives you as well. It gives the tile you are on a percent change to miss, or to hit the cover (same thing basically). If you used that for a shot going through the same tile, but still missing, every shot would be messed up, somehow. Again, I don't remember how it worked exactly.

I'm all for making it look less ridiculous, but I just don't know if we can.

[Gauddlike]

You could reduce stopping chances across the board (except for full tile objects like walls) which may go some way toward solving it.

If Chris can get the default stopping chances added to the xml then tweaking it to test would be fairly easy.

Maybe even stopping chance based on the armour worn or the type of alien.

Big bulky armour or an Andron would be more likely to get in the way while basic armour or a slim Ceasan would be less likely.

I believe though that the stopping chance of tiles (like walls, crates etc) that can be used as cover are set in the individual spectres.

That would mean altering the stopping chance of the soldiers/aliens would skew the cover system hugely unless you also adjust all of the individual spectres.

A crate may go from protecting the person behind it 50% of the time to 80% of the time for example.

[svidangel]

An animation intensive solution might be a "dodge" mechanic. Been playing Tera for a bit, and they have a two roll system for determining crits (Something like DnD actually, come to think of it). First do you crit, then do they resist the crit.

Rather than deal with bullets possibly passing through the alien (depending on how stopping chance and bullet trajectories work), introduce a second "dodge" roll where the shot beats the stopping chance, but the alien drops prone for a second, or some other animation.

Not sure how the game handles shooting over a kneeling person without the bullets chancing to pass through them, but if something like that could be enacted for all the aliens, no worries. Otherwise the drop prone thing might allow for tightening up the shots without making hitting the aliens too easy. Only problem is this might make burst fire less useful unless suppression was guaranteed if they dodge.

[Max_Caine]

I can answer the last part of your comment, svidangel. Suppression "damage" is dealt separately to actual damage and as far as I can tell, suppression "damage" (for guns) is always inflicted, whether the shot hits or not. So even if a squaddie dodged the physical damage from a shot, they would still suffer suppression "damage".

[svidangel]

Ah, good, but my concern was more that the whole burst would have to "miss" if the alien "dodged" by dropping prone. Or maybe just no dodge chance for bursts. Anyway, probably not worth spending too much time on since it would be a major mechanic change.

[erutan]

I didn't read all the past threads (or did so a long time back), but I feel gaudd is on the right track. If right now standing is 100% stop chance, and kneeling 80%, then you can make it 80% and 60% then boost up accuracy to compensate. So at a tile or so away you'd be above 80% to hit due to a positive accuracy multiplier, but you'd still have shots able to pass by a person.

Bulkier armor could then give you more mitigation, but also increase your stopping chance - I think that'd be an interesting tradeoff similar to EU2012's defense stat.

[Gauddlike]

Current values are 100% standing and 60% kneeling.

The stopping chance is separate from the hit chance so your accuracy wouldn't be unduly affected.

It is only really used when you miss.

It does form part of the accuracy calculation but only when deciding if the shot hits any objects on the path to the target (plus cover save chance).

If chances were reduced across the board then no difference may be apparent at all.

[Chris]

Use this thread please: http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/4275-Shot-Miss-Scattering