V21 Experimental 1 Balance Patch Available!

[Chris]

This update is basically just a balance patch for Experimental 1, as a larger update with new systems and bugfixes is due to follow next week. I thought it'd be useful to make a few select balance changes and get feedback on them in isolation.

THERE IS NO CHANGE IN VERSION NUMBER IN THE LAUNCHER! The .exes should remain the same and I can't see the changes causing any new bugs, but you can report them in this thread if you find them.

Balance Changes:

- Smoke grenades no longer block line of sight. Instead, smoke reduces shot accuracy by 20% for each tile of smoke the projectile passes through.

- Alien accuracy global modifier reduced by 10%

- Alien invasion speed set to 1.2x for Insane, 1x for Veteran, 0.8x for Normal and 0.6x for Easy. Previously the scale was one level higher, so Normal was set to 1x.

- Soldier strength carry formula changed to 6kg + (0.3*Strength), giving 50 strength soldiers similar carry capacity but making stronger / weaker soldiers more extreme.

- Combat shields now have 100% chance of blocking shots from the front, but still 60% from the sides. HP increased from 60 to 80, and 120 to 160 for Assault Shields.

- Alien grenade damage nerfed a bit

- Burst fire on alien Plasma Rifles nerfed to 40 accuracy, down from 55

- Fixed some incorrect clip sizes in soldier inventories

To comment on the updated balance, please use the threads below:

Ground Combat: http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/8791-Ground-Combat-Balance-Discussion-V21-Experimental-Balance-Patch%21?p=98015

Geoscape: http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/8790-Geoscape-Balance-Discussion-V21-Experimental-Balance-Patch%21?p=98014

[Moonie]

Thanks, I take it that this is automatic if signed up for experimental builds? I will give it a whirl.

Funny, my steam update says 0 byte download.

[StellarRat]

Sometimes it take a while (4 - 8 hours) before Steam starts sending out the updates.

[Solver]

This sounds great, the list pretty much covers the main balance issues of the first v21 build, IMO. The smoke issue is clearly more involved to fix, so this sounds very good.

[Sentelin]

Smoke grenades no longer block line of sight. Instead, smoke reduces shot accuracy by 20% for each tile of smoke the projectile passes through.

I don't like this at all ....

[Moonie]

Sometimes it take a while (4 - 8 hours) before Steam starts sending out the updates.

No, it was a actual Xenonauts download for 0 bytes at 17.33, crazy yes?

[Mutton]

- Smoke grenades no longer block line of sight. Instead, smoke reduces shot accuracy by 20% for each tile of smoke the projectile passes through.

I like this a lot, in theory (obviously hands on is what really matters), it's more realistic as to how smoke actually works and aliens should actually respond better to it too since they don't think you've just spontaneously disappeared from the face of the earth due to not being able to see anyone any more* so it should give you more protection but not give you an easy cop out for any situation that seems even slightly risky.

* I guess you could argue we're an alien race to these aliens so for all they know we may indeed have the ability to disappear in a puff of smoke.....like a race of magicians.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Mutton

[Sentelin]

I recall that smoke grenade already had similiar perk ,, reduced chance of getting hit by bullet for 20% or so (although that was in general and not per tile but let's see how that change will workout ) " back in days when it hit steam and what we got until (stable v19) is useless junk which was worthless.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Sentelin

[StellarRat]

I'll have to use the new smokers to form an opinion. I will say that a 100% block of LOS with smoke outdoors is pretty unrealistic, so this may be a good change. Indoors it could/should be possible to completely block LOS with smoke. But, I don't think GH wants to get to that level of detail.

Edited January 15, 2014 by StellarRat

[Solver]

The ideal smoke solution seems to be to block LOS and to make aliens respond by grenading / firing at the smoke. But just returning smoke to an accuracy penalty is a viable approach.

[Gam]

No, it was a actual Xenonauts download for 0 bytes at 17.33, crazy yes?

Same happened to me.

But there are at least 5 files modified in the Xenonauts folder.

Maybe a glitch of Steam...

Gam

[Lightzy]

Well so I'm not really enjoying the game at all. Tried a bit, quit, waiting for next patch

Aliens all subscribe to the '1 shot 1 kill' school and have reaction shots like freakin Bob Munden, and since the way the game is designed, when moving you're almost certainly out of cover, moving is just overall a very bad idea when logically staying in one place should be more dangerous

so there you go,

hope next patch is better!

The solution will not be to play with accuracy stats, there is a basic flaw somewhere that needs fixing

[StellarRat]

Aliens all subscribe to the '1 shot 1 kill' school and have reaction shots like freakin Bob Munden, and since the way the game is designed, when moving you're almost certainly out of cover, moving is just overall a very bad idea when logically staying in one place should be more dangerous...

Why would logically staying in one place be more dangerous? If you look at any real battle people nearly always stay under cover and don't move. Moving is done by a few people going around the flanks while supported by a bunch of people laying down fire. Staying under cover is only dangerous if the enemy is threatening to outflank you, has a massive numerical superority OR has artillery or air support.

[Nick7532]

Meanwhile on steam, still waiting for the update to go through

[Duke]

- Smoke grenades no longer block line of sight.

you kidding me. turn it back pls

[ccrunner1756]

THANK YOU Chris and dev team for not making smoke a magic wall that cant be shot through Not sure how i feel about the loss of LOS but I couldnt be happier about smoke being smoke again

[Moonie]

Getting 'no fun' killed a lot. One reason is, all aliens seem to have squad sight, even after any alien having you in sight is killed. Result is, critical shot fired from miles into fog war are instant death.

There is not much point in using tactics if you get instant killed from anywhere on the map with LOS, without ever seeing what or who is shooting you. It would be better if after you have landed, just inform player all your squad is dead. Killed by enemy unknown. Game over.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Moonie

[Lightzy]

Here's how to fix the game:

opportunity shots have severe aim penalties on a moving target and NO OPPORTUNITY SHOTS on a firing target EXCEPT if you reserved enough AP for an aimed shot. Or better, not at all..

This prevents the whole "hit and kill or u die" nonesense, and promotes better more tactical use of MP. It also enables the seemingly sane tactic of 'breach and clear' which right now translates to "breach, shoot once/throw grenade and die"

[Went]

I think, V20 Stable has good firing balance and there is no need for any further experiments with it. There are many of other real problems with ground gameplay, and these problems can not be fixed just by numbers tweaking:

1. Boring, passive AI. Aliens just sitting in rows behind cover and ... DIE! Even if they just will randomly roam the map, their behavior will be smarter and more dangerous for player. Moreover, aliens take same positions every time on same map. For example, 2-nd and 3-rd floors of battleship UFO all times empty.

2. Late aliens have too much HP. Even sectoids likes walking tanks. This make fight them boring, but not more dangerous.

3. There is no gameplay progress from battle to battle. No psy (real psy, not this annoying "DREAD"), no flying monsters, no enemy tanks (drones not a tanks - they are pieces of alien junk), no proximity mines, no incineration ammo, no smart rockets, no close-range enemies (except reapers, but they are not enemies, they are RELOAD-TRIGGERS), aliens do not use top floors etc. We just getting larger numbers and another sprites.

4. Soldier leveling is too effective. Even on normal difficulty newbies almost useless against veterans. This leads to inadmissibility of veterans loses, which leads to reloads or slow, notorious gaming. You need to make loses almost unavoidable, but acceptable for player. Also there is no "specialization leveling": soldier, which all game was a sniper, can in one second become an elite machine-gunner.

5. Final mission is a shame. Buggy, trivial, uninteresting, with no new content and senseless. Why we didn't just not carry fusion bomb to enemy dreadnought instead of assault team? I think, final must be more complex than one mission. For example, player will need to build some protective shield around the planet by constructing several generators. Aliens will try to attack and destroy them, so player will need to defend construction by rocket systems and garrisons.

P.S. I understand, developers was tired with this project and want to finish it quick as possible. But if they leave all upper-mentioned questions with no answers, game will remain a disappointment, but not the "spiritual successor to the original X-COM".

[Moonie]

I thought we were talking about experimental version 21 patch 1. These post are getting right confusing.

[Falesh]

Here's how to fix the game:

opportunity shots have severe aim penalties on a moving target and NO OPPORTUNITY SHOTS on a firing target EXCEPT if you reserved enough AP for an aimed shot. Or better, not at all..

This prevents the whole "hit and kill or u die" nonesense, and promotes better more tactical use of MP. It also enables the seemingly sane tactic of 'breach and clear' which right now translates to "breach, shoot once/throw grenade and die"

I don't think you are being fair here. Breaching for me is very easy, all you need are flashbang grenades then you can shoot as much as you like. If you don't kill everything you can always shut the door again and try next turn.

I like opportunity shots as the make you use tactics, like using flashbangs, rather then just lining up and shooting the aliens with everyone.

[Went]

I thought we were talking about experimental version 21 patch 1. These post are getting right confusing.

My though is "all experimental balance in 21-st version is futile, it will not fix anything because gameplay problems elsewhere".

[Max_Caine]

Lightzy, you don't "fix" a system by switching off the lights and telling everyone they're better off in the dark. The initative based reaction system that Chris is looking to introduce will change up how scouting and breaching is handled in a big way. And as Falesh has pointed out) there already are tools to deal with breaching (shields work ever so much better now they block at least 1 shot from the front).

[Chris]

Went, have you actually played the new balance or are you just telling us it's pointless without having tried it?

[Went]

Went, have you actually played the new balance or are you just telling us it's pointless without having tried it?

Played a little (in the late phase of game). I liked v20 and I don't like v21 (especially enemies firing outside of LOS). Probably I placed my message in wrong topic, but it relates to any patch or build after V20 stable.