V18.3 Ground Combat Balance Discussion

[Bansheedragon]

Banshee - hmm. Doesn't the contextual cursor still pop up if you mouseover the alien without a weapon selected?

Everyone else - does setting all the grenades to have 99 range fix the range issues with them? I'm not sure it'll enable the soldiers to actually throw them further but should stop the suppression issues.

I think you misunderstand me.

My problem was that the alien was standing at a point where it was impossible for me to target it.

I could only target the train wagon or the ground around.

The alien was literally not visible, but hidden behind this wagon.

I'll try to remember to get a screenshot next time to better describe my issue as I forgot when on that map

[GizmoGomez]

This is a problem that I've had a TON of. Gauddlike and I had an idea earlier, but I don't know which thread it was in. It involved a fix for not being able to target aliens behind props, as well as being able to target aliens in darkness where your troops can see them, but you (as the player) can't (night missions and the like).

Do you remember, Gauddlike?

(Or anyone else for that matter?)

[Sathra]

The marker idea? Press a button (or something) and a thing pops up like the suppression icon and you can use that to target the alien?

[GizmoGomez]

Yeah, that was the one!

So, the idea went that there'd be a "marker button" of some sort that when you pressed it, it'd show little alien icons above the heads any aliens your guys could see at that moment. It would allow you to see aliens behind props, in darkness (where your troops can see them, but you can't), and make it generally easier to find them. It'd also allow you to target them through any props while the button was held down, by making the props transparent (like walls do), but they'd only be transparent when the mouse was over the alien.

(Like, if your mouse is over the alien highlighted, any props around him become transparent, allowing you to target him. If your mouse isn't over him, props act normally and the only difference is that there's a marker showing where he is.)

For example, say there's a train car in front of a sebillian, and you can't see a pixel of him, but your trooper on the ground can. Because you can't see him, you don't know which end of the car he's close to, which tile he's on, etc. You hold down the magic button, a little symbol appears above the enemy's head (similar to the suppression symbol, I'd suggest a little alien head like we use for the side-of-the-screen markers) showing you exactly which tile he's on. Then, continuing to hold the button, you hover your cursor over where he'd be, and you can target him through the prop, making the prop transparent in the process. You proceed to shoot him, saving your guys from being needlessly slaughtered.

Alternatively, instead of a marker above their heads, it could make a red box around the alien (like the targeting box, without the target). However, I'd rather it be a little alien icon above their heads (ala mode de suppressed icon) because some people might get confused by the target-box around them, and think they were somehow targeting several hostiles at once. Maybe they wouldn't, but I think it'd look better the first way.

Thanks for the reminder, Sathra!

Anyway, feedback, anyone?

What're your thoughts on it, Chris?

PS:

Also, there could also be a setting to show icons for civilians and local forces as well, just to help alleviate confusion in dark maps, and to let you see where not to shoot. That should be a setting in the options, though, not a mandatory feature, as some people simply don't care where they are. I'd like it, though. Again, it'd only be people a soldier can actually see, not everyone on the map. That'd be broken. I'd prefer it if the two, civvies and soldiers/armed people, were given different icons, just because they are different people. Maybe a little "friendly" sign above them, green for armed and blue for unarmed? I'm sure something could be worked out.

Edited May 1, 2013 by GizmoGomez
Adding last bit. Again.

[irongamer]

I wouldn't mind an outline highlight or a little icon. Would help for those dark shots. I don't think the cursor sweep to find the enemy in the darkness really adds anything. Obviously my character can see the enemy, so I don't have any issue with an interface that aids the player in taking action on the target.

There seems to be some issues with aliens getting inside from anything from hay-bails to door ways. Along with invisible aliens in the alien base.

[Sathra]

There seems to be some issues with aliens getting inside from anything from hay-bails to door ways.

I'm a little lost, what does this refer to?

On topic though, like I said last time the marker came up, I'm all for it. That and having full height props go transparent if there's a unit behind it, like walls do now.

[irongamer]

I'm a little lost, what does this refer to?

On topic though, like I said last time the marker came up, I'm all for it. That and having full height props go transparent if there's a unit behind it, like walls do now.

Now and then aliens will disappear and be "inside" an object on the map. At this point I can "target" them but can't hit them even though the shots look good they don't make the right sound and the alien doesn't die. I also can't see them visually, I only know they are there because of the indicator and the cross-hair change. Similar to how civilians seem to get stuck inside stairs. Even though I can target them my shots never really hit them. Destroying the hay-bail for example would make the alien reappear.

Anyhow, the topic of being able to see and select aliens your characters can see made me think of these instances. These have happened in v18.3hf2.

Edited May 1, 2013 by irongamer

[Sathra]

I have never seen that happen. Odd.

[StellarRat]

I have never seen that happen. Odd.

I've seen this too. I think it has something to do with the angle and the object. The aliens used to be able to disappear into the wall of a UFO too, but that hasn't happened in a while since a bug patch for it.

[Gauddlike]

This is a problem that I've had a TON of. Gauddlike and I had an idea earlier, but I don't know which thread it was in. It involved a fix for not being able to target aliens behind props, as well as being able to target aliens in darkness where your troops can see them, but you (as the player) can't (night missions and the like).

Do you remember, Gauddlike?

(Or anyone else for that matter?)

The discussion was in the beta considerations thread.

[Max_Caine]

On a different matter, of all the weapons I can equip my Hunter with, I like the starting gun the best.

1) More shots, both rounds fired, and actual number of bursts it can fire, so I stand a chance of actually hitting with it, and keeping aliens pinned down with it longer.

2) Easier to cause suppression.

3) As accurate as any of the other weapons, and free.

[Sathra]

I've been wondering, should the effect of smoke grenades be increased? I'm thinking of trying it out with 50% reduction of accuracy.

[erutan]

I made a laser gun for my hunter and was pretty disappointed with how useless it was. I think the having one vehicle per mission + limited ammo keeps them balanced enough without making their accuracy abysmal.

[Sathra]

Yeah, its a bit inaccurate. Though my file wanderings suggest it should have more ammo.

[Sathra]

Anyways, smoke grenades. There's 3 ways I think they could be done.

1 is to increase the accuracy reduction. It's currently at 20.

2 is to increase the LoS reduction. This is closer to the OG smoke grenades, which greatly reduced sight range.

3 is to do both. I'm trying out this version (50 accuracy reduction, 8 LoS reduction).

Thoughts?

EDIT: Well, turns out the LoS reduction part doesn't seem to actually work.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Sathra

[erutan]

It should definitely be higher than 20%, a lot of random props can cause a 20% reduction and there should be a significant advantage to taking the time to deploy them. They're relatively directional/limited so having a high pay off seems like a good idea.

[Sathra]

Testing has shown that at 50 its nearly impossible to hit anything in or through a smoke cloud at anything but point blank range. Even then you'll miss alot.

I've been using it to protect scouts and for breaching. Shotgunners charging out of the smoke.

Oh, and increased grenade range to 15. Its been working pretty well.

EDIT: And by impossible I mean you'll get 0% trying to shoot out from inside the cloud. The shot path goes red. Still hit quite a bit though, which is odd.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Sathra

[StellarRat]

Testing has shown that at 50 its nearly impossible to hit anything in or through a smoke cloud at anything but point blank range. Even then you'll miss alot.

That seems TOO effective to me. Smoke is not that good IRL. It's greatly affected by wind and rarely provides a perfect "curtain" for troops. From your description I'd say you need to drop it back some.

[Sathra]

Yeah, I dropped it to 40, and trying that out now. Its a real double-edged sword since you can't hit anything through it either. Though the effective accuracy doesn't seem to match the shown accuracy.

[Gauddlike]

Could missed shots still be deviating into the target?

[crusherven]

Yeah, I dropped it to 40, and trying that out now. Its a real double-edged sword since you can't hit anything through it either. Though the effective accuracy doesn't seem to match the shown accuracy.

IMO smoke should be a bit of a double-edged sword.

[erutan]

agreed. otherwise you'd just have a soldier to spam smoke grenades every turn.

[Sathra]

Could missed shots still be deviating into the target?

Not sure. I've had a soldier pump 2 rifle rounds out of 3 into a Sebbie with a <10% chance due to smoke. At about 10 tiles range.

[Lightzy]

1) That the hit % is displaying and possibly calculating incorrectly is surely a bug, no?

2) I find it annoying that the moment an alien sees me, if I let it survive the turn, then all the aliens from all across the map will be shooting at my guy. Most of the damage I take I think (and almost all the damage I dish out to the aliens) is done by units with are well out of sight range.

Squad sight is a good thing, but either the ranges for weapons are too long or the maps are too small or something.

I think that the sight range should be as long as the normal rifle effective range, and possibly all effective ranges reduced drastically

3) cover is too important. Even a complete rookie sniper with 60 aim score, with the starting sniper rifle, can get 85-95% hit on a target beyond his rifle effective range if it's not in cover. Aliens completely destroy you if a soldier is out of cover too, with their one shot kills which usually hit.

But once in cover, hit chances drop to 0-20% and nearly all your shots miss.

I know cover is truly that important, but it makes for annoying gameplay. Hit chances against units out of cover should be reduced a bit, at least.

4) ROCKET LAUNCHERS! they're too awesome. They destroy cover (which is uberly important), they kill aliens, they suffocate and cook them the next turn if they haven't killed them this turn, or at least make them run out of the smoke and fire which wastes all their action points, they have infinite range and are totally free of charge, and they serve as lethal flares as well, spotting aliens for your team at night, and also area effect damage!

I always got rockets, 3-4 units. I'd take more but it feels a little broken already when I don't have to care about aliens being or not being in cover or in any sort of sensible range.

5) points for ground missions seem a bit off.. I suppose there hasn't been any balancing for this yet.

the 100 for securing or not securing the UFO are the only factor that decides the mission really. Everything else is like, 1, 2 points here and there..

[StellarRat]

1) That the hit % is displaying and possibly calculating incorrectly is surely a bug, no?

2) I find it annoying that the moment an alien sees me, if I let it survive the turn, then all the aliens from all across the map will be shooting at my guy. Most of the damage I take I think (and almost all the damage I dish out to the aliens) is done by units with are well out of sight range.

Squad sight is a good thing, but either the ranges for weapons are too long or the maps are too small or something.

I think that the sight range should be as long as the normal rifle effective range, and possibly all effective ranges reduced drastically

3) cover is too important. Even a complete rookie sniper with 60 aim score, with the starting sniper rifle, can get 85-95% hit on a target beyond his rifle effective range if it's not in cover. Aliens completely destroy you if a soldier is out of cover too, with their one shot kills which usually hit.

But once in cover, hit chances drop to 0-20% and nearly all your shots miss.

I know cover is truly that important, but it makes for annoying gameplay. Hit chances against units out of cover should be reduced a bit, at least.

4) ROCKET LAUNCHERS! they're too awesome. They destroy cover (which is uberly important), they kill aliens, they suffocate and cook them the next turn if they haven't killed them this turn, or at least make them run out of the smoke and fire which wastes all their action points, they have infinite range and are totally free of charge, and they serve as lethal flares as well, spotting aliens for your team at night, and also area effect damage!

I always got rockets, 3-4 units. I'd take more but it feels a little broken already when I don't have to care about aliens being or not being in cover or in any sort of sensible range.

5) points for ground missions seem a bit off.. I suppose there hasn't been any balancing for this yet.

the 100 for securing or not securing the UFO are the only factor that decides the mission really. Everything else is like, 1, 2 points here and there..

I think most of problem comes from the fact that the accuracy formula drops off too gradually once you are past a weapon's effective range. It's possible to hit someone from one corner of the the map to other fairly consistently with some of the weapons. Of course the damage is reduced, but some weapons, like the plasma cannon can kill you at just about any range.