V25 Gameplay / Balance Feedback thread:

[happystrawberry1]

Are Sebillians suppose to be easy to shoot? I been getting 100% shot chances on them as of late on Veteran difficulty.

[asdfcyber]

26 minutes ago, happystrawberry1 said:

Are Sebillians suppose to be easy to shoot? I been getting 100% shot chances on them as of late on Veteran difficulty.

No, that's a confirmed bug:

 

[Emily_F]

So, my tuppence-worth on the latest changes - generally positive, but money is super-tight since dropping the price of the alloys and allenium in particular. It means it is virtually impossible to get more bases and aircraft before the panic starts hitting serious levels.  Also, I'm sure the disappearing weapons bug is back but I can't prove it with saves yet so haven't reported it as a bug.  Oh, and the mesmerise thing for psyons is too much - it should either be a once-per-turn thing or a much lower (no greater than 50%) chance of effect.  It also affected the MARS rover, which seemed nonsensical given it's a robot  

Edited December 18, 2022 by Emily_F

[Chris]

7 hours ago, Emily_F said:

So, my tuppence-worth on the latest changes - generally positive, but money is super-tight since dropping the price of the alloys and allenium in particular. It means it is virtually impossible to get more bases and aircraft before the panic starts hitting serious levels.  Also, I'm sure the disappearing weapons bug is back but I can't prove it with saves yet so haven't reported it as a bug.  Oh, and the mesmerise thing for psyons is too much - it should either be a once-per-turn thing or a much lower (no greater than 50%) chance of effect.  It also affected the MARS rover, which seemed nonsensical given it's a robot  

For Mesmerise, I'm a little surprised that some people seem to find it overpowered. Could you maybe explain what problems it causes you? Because if you take a maximum accuracy shot, you don't usually have that many TU left afterwards - so what does losing the remainder prevent you from doing?

You're right that it shouldn't affect the MARS though.

[Emily_F]

All that happens for me is that the TUs go to zero. Basically the same effect as suppression except it happens when soldiers shoot at the psyon. I don't know if that's what's meant to happen? 

[Devland99]

Normal difficulty panic levels rises extremely quickly almost to the point of being constantly about to fall into panic, I've had this happen on 3 playthroughs so far where on day 60 I am about to lose three nations on the next turn. This is after aggressively taking out every UFO I have access to in the EUR, AFR and western SOV. Makes the strategic layer almost impossible to break through without dumb luck

[Kamehamehayes]

I think the cost of radar is way too expensive imo. 500k is pretty demanding for 1 radar array when someone is building a second base in the earlygame. I think that each radar array you build per base should go up in price compared to the previous one. I think that it should be 300k for the first, 600k for the second, and 900k for the third. Inevitably, the player will have to pay more to have all three of them, but building only 1 is more affordable and allows for the production of more bases.  

I think there is still the minor issue of Southeastern Europe still being the best location for the starting base because it protects the most amount of funding regions. Logically, this makes sense because that general area has more people and cities than anywhere else on the map and there is very little water compared to putting a base in the Caribbean or Southeastern Asia/Indonesia. However gameplaywise, it means that Southeastern Europe is the optimal choice and picking any other location is chosen just for the novelty as opposed to any extra utility. I think there needs to be some systems implemented in the future that make putting bases in other areas a more viable option, although such a discussion may be out of the bounds of this thread. 

 

[Kamehamehayes]

1 hour ago, Devland99 said:

Normal difficulty panic levels rises extremely quickly almost to the point of being constantly about to fall into panic, I've had this happen on 3 playthroughs so far where on day 60 I am about to lose three nations on the next turn. This is after aggressively taking out every UFO I have access to in the EUR, AFR and western SOV. Makes the strategic layer almost impossible to break through without dumb luck

I play on veteran difdiculty. I agree with this. The panic level of all of the regions outside of you starting bases's radar range start panic very quickly. It is not very practical to have a functional second base until the third month because all of the costs are so high with the coat base base structures and plane (likely with upgraded weapons) is so high. Even in the third month, it is still very difficult to manage two bases because destroyers become more common and observers starting being sent out. 

I think making radar arrays cost 300k, 600k, and then 900k like I said in my previous post will do a lot to make this more managable imo. 

[Kamehamehayes]

Sorry for the triple post, but my MARS just ran over the objective in the cleaner intel mission. I think that the computers should be not crushable until the objective has been retrieved from them (or maybe making them not crushable is an easier solution in the short term). Also, cleaners can sometimes destroy their own compiters on accident, which is a little annoying. 

I also think that the MARS rocket launcher needs to have its blast radius needs to be toned down a little bit. It is a little ridiculous to have a blast radius of 4, perhaps having a blast radius of 3 but increase the rocket capacity to 8 might be a decent rebalance. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Kamehamehayes

[Wyldefyre_CP]

1 hour ago, Kamehamehayes said:

Sorry for the triple post, but my MARS just ran over the objective in the cleaner intel mission. I think that the computers should be not crushable until the objective has been retrieved from them (or maybe making them not crushable is an easier solution in the short term). Also, cleaners can sometimes destroy their own compiters on accident, which is a little annoying. 

I also think that the MARS rocket launcher needs to have its blast radius needs to be toned down a little bit. It is a little ridiculous to have a blast radius of 4, perhaps having a blast radius of 3 but increase the rocket capacity to 8 might be a decent rebalance. 

I'd suggest not taking the Mars rover on that particular mission, as it's like putting a bull in a china shop.  I've also learned from past experience that it's not the greatest place to be bringing grenadiers to, or even machine gunners, but I'm not leaving those at home.  As soon as I can, I get two snipers up on the roof on that left side and have them lay in wait and bushwhack a fair number of cleaners spilling out of the top and right side of the map ... I might scoot one sniper out a bit more towards center at some point, but then they are susceptible to more accurate return fire.

[Wyldefyre_CP]

Also, yeah, the cost of installing radars feels a bit high, the maintenance cost of the access lifts also seems too much.  500K for most engineering upgrades also feels rather demanding, particularly if, like the aircraft armor, you have to buy a new set of it for each new aircraft you build.  I imagine these are mostly just default values waiting on feedback, though.

[Kamehamehayes]

Just now, Wyldefyre_CP said:

I'd suggest not taking the Mars rover on that particular mission, as it's like putting a bull in a china shop.  I've also learned from past experience that it's not the greatest place to be bringing grenadiers to, or even machine gunners, but I'm not leaving those at home.  As soon as I can, I get two snipers up on the roof on that left side and have them lay in wait and bushwhack a fair number of cleaners spilling out of the top and right side of the map ... I might scoot one sniper out a bit more towards center at some point, but then they are susceptible to more accurate return fire.

yeah, I agree. I changed my mind a little bit from an hour ago. I think the real issue is that the mission does not make is explicitly clear that the objectives are extremely delicate and the actual objective being delicate is not the issue imo. I think a MARS is still very useful on that mission despite that. It can still do decent work on the middle section while not destroying the objectives. I'm making a more detailed thread nitpicking the lack of clarity of some of the missions objectives though, so I'm not going to derail this thread with that. 

My opinion on the MARS rockets still stands though, the radius should be decreased but the actual ammo should be increased a tiny bit to compensate (to 7 or 8 compared to the original 6 imo). 

1 minute ago, Wyldefyre_CP said:

Also, yeah, the cost of installing radars feels a bit high, the maintenance cost of the access lifts also seems too much.  500K for most engineering upgrades also feels rather demanding, particularly if, like the aircraft armor, you have to buy a new set of it for each new aircraft you build.  I imagine these are mostly just default values waiting on feedback, though.

I don't think you have to buy new armor every time you build a new interceptor. It should automatically come with ablative plating or upgraded versions if you completed the engineering projects for those (unless you are playing on v25.1b or lower, then the bug is not patched yet I think) 

[Alienkiller]

What the MARS belongs, I love it.

You can upgrade it with better Armour (the first is Alloy-Plating to double the Safety) and change the Main-Weapon / Secundary Weapon. Later you can bring on Modul-Components. Special Surprisses will come later on for that.

The Planes and Airfights aren´t finished yet. The Fighters can be upgraded like the Mars atm. We Crowfounders / Main-Beta-Testers tested out in the last 2 or 2,5 Years many Reworks, Upgrades, Changes in that Part. But the Devs announced that isn´t finished yet.

What the Radar-Buildup belongs. The 3 Tiles for Radars are a waste of Ressources. There 2 Upgrade-Rework-Project from the Workshop / Research is much better.

I don´t know how the Devs from Chaos Concept (the direct Competitor with the very strong WIP-Refit for the Series) are doing in that Part. But 3 simple Radars linked are not the Solution.

Haven´t tested the last Version yet, but get done 2 fully longplay Tests in V.24.7. And with the R & D-Outcomes such Radar-Upgrades are more then possible.

 

 

[Chris]

I've been busy with all the bugs / issues that people have been reporting, so I'm only just going back through this thread to check the feedback I missed. I'll pull out a few things to comment on:

• Yeah, I've definitely made the alien invasion too strong in this build. Doing a quick test run and even if I win all the GC missions and shoot down all the UFOs in my region, it's basically game over by the end of month 2. There's a bunch of things I need to look at here, but I'm conscious if you've not knocked out the Cleaner Base by the end of month 2 then you've taken 20 Panic in all regions from that plus the 50 each regions starts on, so even just those two things don't leave much room for error. Anyway, I'll tone it down for the next hotfix.
• I'm not going to adjust the maintenance costs or radar costs just yet, as I think the problem is the invasion is too strong. Reducing the costs tends to mean the player can get all their expansion done by about month 3 of a 12 month game.
• The MARS shouldn't be able to run over objectives, no. While realistic, it's also pretty dumb and frustrating for players that the game lets you do it. I'll take a look at how we can get that fixed.
• Cleaner Base - I'm looking at the enemies in this mission again, and I think they need to be strengthened given you're attempting this on day 80. I'm going to add a couple of Psyons to the main room, replace all the ballistic weapons with magnetic weapons, and add armour to the elite plasma Cleaners, but I'm also going to see if I can set all the enemies to upgrade to using plasma weapons on a certain Geoscape date. That way the mission will still pose a bit of a challenge to players that attempt it in month 4+.
• I'll reduce both the damage and the weight of the knife, down to 26 damage and 10 weight. To be honest I'm not even sure it's a weapon I want to include in the game, I think I put it in as a test years ago and never got around to taking it out. Do people like it?
• Interesting that shields are mentioned as overpowered; in the last patch people were complaining they were pointless so I tried buffing them. I thought they were pretty strong already but I think a lot of people might just consider them worthless if they don't completely stop all damage. Anyway, I've reduced the Armour on a Combat shield from 20 down to 16 and on the Assault shield from 35 down to 28. I think they'll still allow a shield soldier to tank 2-3 more hits than a normal soldier, even if they will get lightly wounded on each hit too.
• I think I need to entirely remove the ability to disable buildings, as my grand hopes of making power an "active" mechanic where you turn buildings on and off as required didn't end up being very interesting, and they've resulted in a situation where some buildings can be disabled and others can't, etc. I don't think it's adding anything except confusion.

[Alienkiller]

What the Knife belongs, it´s an very nice Secondary Weapon for the LMG´s and / or Snipers. I use them very often for Close Combat-Situations for them.

 

Shields (Combat and Assault) are not overpowerd, rather the opposite.

1. Steel is Steel (Steel Plating / Shield), which is heavy (like the Defender Armour which consists on Cevlar and heavy Plates), so that no Wounder is to expect. Your Specialists will take Damage, so Cover and the existing Protection is important.

2. Alien-Alloys (Plating / Shield), is much lighter (like the Warden Combat Armour) and are an Step forward, but still not good enough. Your Sepcialists will still take Damage, so still Cover and the exsiting Protection is important.

The Newbies will remember the words from the experianced Main-Beta-Testers in that esp. later when they fight not against human Weapons / advanced Human Weapons.

 

What the Disable Buildings-Button belongs, it´s an must have for later, if Upgrades make Buildings bigger. If someone played the UFO ET-Series, where some buildings get Upgrades and not all can be Minaturised as whished, what get then an 1x2 Building (like the Hangar or similar) instead.

[Emily_F]

3 hours ago, Chris said:

Doing a quick test run and even if I win all the GC missions and shoot down all the UFOs in my region, it's basically game over by the end of month 2. There's a bunch of things I need to look at here, but I'm conscious if you've not knocked out the Cleaner Base by the end of month 2 then you've taken 20 Panic in all regions from that plus the 50 each regions starts on, so even just those two things don't leave much room for error. Anyway, I'll tone it down for the next hotfix.

Maybe this could be fixed by starting at a much lower general panic (like, 20 or something)?  

[Alienkiller]

Emely, you mean for the Game when it come out as Early-Access-Version. An good Idea. Then it don´t scare the normal Gamers which wanna buy it. And it could adjusted to the Difficulty too. The easyer the lesser the Panic from Beginning on, when the Aliens and their Helpers [Cleaners] get shown the first Time.

Variant A: Beginning from 20 (Soldier), 25 (medium Soldier), 30 (Veteran) and 40 (General)

or

Variant B: Beginning from 20 (Soldier), 30 (medium Soldier), 40 (Veteran) and 50 (General)

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Alienkiller

[Chris]

1 hour ago, Emily_F said:

Maybe this could be fixed by starting at a much lower general panic (like, 20 or something)?  

 

12 minutes ago, Alienkiller said:

Emely, you mean for the Game when it come out as Early-Access-Version. An good Idea. Then it don´t scare the normal Gamers which wanna buy it. And it could adjusted to the Difficulty too. The easyer the lesser the Panic from Beginning on, when the Aliens and their Helpers [Cleaners] get shown the first Time.

Variant A: Beginning from 20 (Soldier), 25 (medium Soldier), 30 (Veteran) and 40 (General)

or

Variant B: Beginning from 20 (Soldier), 30 (medium Soldier), 40 (Veteran) and 50 (General)

Yeah, this is my plan. I'm going to drop it in the next patch - probably to 25 or so - and then in the next major version we can add support for changing the starting values based on difficulty settings.

I'm also going to slightly reduce the amount of damage inflicted by UFOs as they fly around.

[Emily_F]

38 minutes ago, Chris said:

I'm also going to slightly reduce the amount of damage inflicted by UFOs as they fly around

Do different size UFO'S do different amounts of damage?

Also, at the moment you don't get anything for saving civilians; maybe it would be good to get a panic-reducing bonus for every civilian who survives. 

[Komandos]

7 hours ago, Chris said:

I think I need to entirely remove the ability to disable buildings, as my grand hopes of making power an "active" mechanic where you turn buildings on and off as required didn't end up being very interesting, and they've resulted in a situation where some buildings can be disabled and others can't, etc. I don't think it's adding anything except confusion.

I guess the problem is this:

1. The animation of a disabled (mothballed) building almost does not differ from the animation of a working building. Visually, it is difficult to determine (with a cursory glance) which building is working and which building is disabled. Bottom line: building management requires a lot of attention.

2. The reward for a building disconnected from power is very small. (For example: There is no saving money for maintenance.).

3. Maintenance of the power generator is very cheap. Energy is very cheap. There is no point in saving. The electric generator should be the most expensive design to maintain (on the Base).

4. The disconnection of the building from electrical energy occurs instantly. The resumption of power supply to the building occurs instantly. You need to set a time limit. For example, 6 hours.

5. Fuel for energy generators should be a consumable that should be saved and the amount of which (fuel) limits the size of the base and the number of working buildings.

For example:

In the first month of the game, the player may have enough funds to build 6 bases. But the amount of fuel (for an energy generator) can only be for one base. As a result, the player will have to activate the operation of the Base in those regions where there are a lot of UFOs, and disable the operation of bases (disable entire bases) in those regions where there are few UFOs.

Think about it.

[Komandos]

8 hours ago, Chris said:

I'm not going to adjust the maintenance costs or radar costs just yet, as I think the problem is the invasion is too strong. Reducing the costs tends to mean the player can get all their expansion done by about month 3 of a 12 month game.

If you limit the number of working buildings to stocks (monthly supplies) of fuel for an energy generator, you will be able to control how many buildings the player will be able to put into operation, even if the player builds up the entire planet with their bases.

 

 

Theoretically: for each building, you can come up with a resource (consumables) that regulates the number of working buildings of this type (for each individual month in the game).

Edited December 20, 2022 by Komandos

[Alienkiller]

Komandos, they don´t use Diesel for the Buildings, if you have such Buildings which have to work 24 Hours 365 Days, what have you then instead: Yep Atomic!

[Kamehamehayes]

16 hours ago, Chris said:

 

• Interesting that shields are mentioned as overpowered; in the last patch people were complaining they were pointless so I tried buffing them. I thought they were pretty strong already but I think a lot of people might just consider them worthless if they don't completely stop all damage. Anyway, I've reduced the Armour on a Combat shield from 20 down to 16 and on the Assault shield from 35 down to 28. I think they'll still allow a shield soldier to tank 2-3 more hits than a normal soldier, even if they will get lightly wounded on each hit too.

Like I said when the initial changes were made, I think the issue people had with the shield was entirely a game feel issue and not much to do with a balance issue. It just inherently feels better to not take any damage even if the new system is theoretically stronger. 15-16 armor should be enough to make shields very viable imo because I think they are way stronger with the new system than they ever were in Xen 1. Since the shields run off armor instead of hp, they last for the entire mission as opposed to breaking midway through due to powerful alien weapons. 

[Komandos]

7 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

Komandos, they don´t use Diesel for the Buildings, if you have such Buildings which have to work 24 Hours 365 Days, what have you then instead: Yep Atomic!

To supply electricity to several rooms for 12 people - do you need a nuclear reactor?

 

What's wrong with a player being able to de-energize entire bases so as not to incur financial costs for their maintenance?

 

The cost of maintenance of the base should include the cost of energy production. (Each building requires not money for its upkeep, but energy for its upkeep). No power supply to the base buildings = no maintenance costs for the base buildings.

TOTAL: energy production costs a lot of money. The maintenance of buildings requires energy. (And not just money, as we now see in the game)

Edited December 21, 2022 by Komandos

[Komandos]

22 hours ago, Chris said:

I think I need to entirely remove the ability to disable buildings, as my grand hopes of making power an "active" mechanic where you turn buildings on and off as required didn't end up being very interesting, and they've resulted in a situation where some buildings can be disabled and others can't, etc. I don't think it's adding anything except confusion.

If in the game, the player is limited to a single base for a long time, on which he is forced to build only the most necessary buildings (lack of space and money), then it is natural that the need to disconnect the building from the electricity supply will rarely arise.

Solution: either increase the size of military bases (7x7; 8x8; 9x9), or give the player the opportunity to have many a bases.