Bleeding Wounds System

[Popperlicious]

Why not do it right, instead of some kind of frakenstein cut up "lets make it look like there is a real wound & wound care system" ?

Make it a sliding scale of wound severity per hit (after armour calculation etc.) :

Flesh Wound (1-20% of HP dmg)

Bleeding Wound (21-50% of HP dmg)

Crippling Wound (51-85% of HP dmg)

Incapacitated (above 86% of HP dmg)

The body is then split up into 4 damage areas, with each hit being randomly distributed:

Legs (20%)

Torso (40%)

Arms (20%)

Head (10%)

Flesh Wounds:

Flesh Wounds have a 20% chance of instead becoming a Bleeding wound.

A soldier can have multiple Flesh wounds, each carrying the one time 20% chance of becoming a Bleeding Wound

Flesh wounds do not impair the Xenonaut in any way

Bleeding Wounds:

Bleeding Wounds cause 3HP damage each turn that it is not treated.

A soldier can have multiple Bleeding Wounds, each adding an additional 3HP damage per turn.

Bleeding Wounds can be cured with a Bandage (new consumable). It costs 15APs to apply a bandage and consumes 1 bandage.

Bleeding wounds reduces Xenonaut AP by 2 per turn (cumulatively), per Bleeding Wound that is untreated.

Crippling Wounds:

Crippling wounds incapacitates the body part that is hit: leg = all movement costs triple AP, arm = accuracy of 2-handed weapons is halved, torso = strength & Bravery halved, head = accuracy reduced by 90% & bravery halved.

Crippling wounds have a 100% chance of also inflicting a Bleeding wound.

A Crippling wound can be cured with a Medic Bag (new consumable). It costs 30APs to use the Medic Bag and consumes 1 use (bag should have 3-5 uses).

Using the Medic bag on a crippling wound recovers 50% of the impairment - but a separate application of a bandage is needed to also cure the bleeding wound associated with the crippling wound.

Incapacitating Wounds:

Incapacitating Wounds are the same as a crippling wound, except they also render the Xenonaut unconscious.

Incapacitating Wounds to the head have a 20% chance of causing death

Incapacitating Wounds can be alleviated with a Medic Bag (new consumable). It costs 40APs to use the Medic Bag on an Incapacitating Wound and consumes 1 use (bag should have 3-5 uses).

Using the Medic bag on an Incapacitating Wound wakes up the Xenonaut in the next turn, but the affects of the crippling wound can not be removed - also a separate application of a bandage is needed to also cure the bleeding wound associated with the crippling wound.

Bandages take up a single equipment slot, and weigh 0,5kg (or alternatively make it a two use item for 0,5kg).

Medic Bags takes up 2x3 equipment slots, and weigh 5kg.

You could also add a "saline solution bag", which you can apply to xenonauts that have had a bleeding wound (that has been treated), this will recuperate all the HP and AP lost due to the bleeding effect. Application takes a full turn (40'ish AP). The reason for using this is to reduce the amount of downtime required by wounded xenonaut's (less HP damage, shorter hospital time), thus incentivizing the player to carry more weight.

Also you could add a sliding scale of ability reduction with each HP of damage, and other such nice little details.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Popperlicious

[Max_Caine]

Ok Popperlicious, how would this system be represented on-screen? Are we talking a graphic similar to the graphic used in XCOM:UD and TFTD? Would an additional wound screen be required?

[Popperlicious]

Ok Popperlicious, how would this system be represented on-screen? Are we talking a graphic similar to the graphic used in XCOM:UD and TFTD? Would an additional wound screen be required?

I was thinking a pop up on the injury occuring, and the graphic indication like this on the troopers inventory screen:

http://i.imgur.com/xQsMr.jpg

It really doesn't have to be advanced to work.

When applying bandages / medic bags you can just use the same screen to select which injury to cure (provided the injury texts can be interacted with).

Edited June 26, 2012 by Popperlicious

[Gorlom]

I wouldn't consider your suggestion "doing it right" popperlicious. Imo it looks overly complex and doesn't seem to take into account what game mechanics already present. When exactly are you taking 1-20% of HP in damage in this game?? I don't think this mechanic will even come up until maybe extreme late game.

Without actually doing the math your suggestion seems to make it far too much trouble to save any heavily damaged soldier to be able to do it.

After doing the math I came up with: at 55-60 HP max 86% damage would mean you have less then 8 hp left with at least 1 bleeding wound.

Assuming you waste a round getting a soldier with an actual medic bag to the soldier your unconcious soldier loses 3 hp and 37.5% of the soldiers that end up in that situation are dead (not all of them have 8 HP the ones that had 3 or less die). next you waste the next turn on removing the incapacitating/crippling wound and are unable to apply the bandage (because of inventory management) and another 37.5% of the soldiers in that situation dies. So only 30% of the soldiers that fall unconscious can be saved at all, assuming there is only one bleed effect. That's less then 1 in 3.

No wait, sorry I assumed that you have to apply triage and cure the most serious wound first. You could ofc allow for treating the DoT first and go for the crippling wound after.

It is an extensive suggesting and you seem to have considered against itself and reality. but I wonder if you have considered it inside the game. If you have imagined how, when and how often one would end up in different situations and what would happen then. If it would be fun or if it would just do a good job at representing reality. Creating those additional healing items seems a bit arbitrary to me since there is no way you can consider inventory issues of yet to be implemented armour, weapons and utility items. There is also the issue max_caine brings up with how these mechanics would be represented in game.

My personal opinion is that it could be simplified while still being as much fun, and the time spent on making/balancing this overly complex feature could be better spent on implementing other features. It doesn't have to be "realistic" to "be done right". (links to more reading on the subject are in my signature)

Edited June 26, 2012 by Gorlom
I abuse the word "seem"

[Popperlicious]

my numbers were purely guesstimations, ofcourse they need to be adjusted to actually work correctly ingame.

[Gorlom]

OFC. but would the AP reduction, accuracy and stuff really be fun? especially if you couldn't completely get rid of the debuff through the use of healing items? If you are focusing only on the bleeding mechanic it might seem like it. but coupled with the rest of the game it might become too much and go over the threshold and traverse from being fun to just being frustrating.

Isn't the bleeding and suppression enough of a penalty?

Edited June 26, 2012 by Gorlom

[Popperlicious]

Well it could be a system that only activates on the two hardest difficulty settings, for veterans that have already completed the game it would (imo) be an interesting system that would up the challenge and thus increase the "reward" for playing again.

or a system you activate like the "Iron man" feature, at the beginning of a new game.

[Max_Caine]

Well, let's consider the numbers in the current version of the Alpha. Early-game, Xenonauts with Jackal armour tend to die pretty quickly from plasma weapons - plasma pistols do on average 30 HP per shot, whereas plasma rifles do on average 55 HP. Early-game Xenonauts tend to have an average HP of 59, so they will either be severely or critically injured from 1-2 shots. Things get better when Wolf Armour is researched.. plasma pistols do an average of 10 HP, and plasma rifles 25 HP but at around that point the solider class of alien is introduced, who is packing Heavy Plasma, which kills the average jackal-wearing corporal, and does 60pts to Wolf Armoured troops!

Xenonaut injuries will follow peaks and troughs. The player researches a new armour. It works for a few missions. The aliens bring out a new gun. Player researches a new armour. Etc. etc. It would seem that as long as the aliens can keep raising the stakes, the wounds most likely to happen will be either severe or critical, so perhaps any discussion of injuries should focus on the most likely wounds to occur. Would people agree?

[Gorlom]

so perhaps any discussion of injuries should focus on the most likely wounds to occur. Would people agree?

Vital to the discussion imo.

[Chris]

OK, so generally people seem supportive of the idea. A few suggestions look good. I like that any bleeding soldier would leave a blood splatter at his feet at the start of any turn where he takes bleeding damage. That's a nice visual cue.

I think we'll stick with a warning at the start of each turn, however, I can see how it might annoy people. We'll change it so clicking the mouse will skip the current notification and move onto the next one so you can click through them all in a couple of seconds if you feel the need...

[Gorlom]

We'll change it so clicking the mouse will skip the current notification and move onto the next one so you can click through them all in a couple of seconds if you feel the need...

rightclick or leftclick? anywhere or in a confirmation box/button?

[Chris]

LMB click anywhere.

[Gazz]

I like that any bleeding soldier would leave a blood splatter at his feet at the start of any turn where he takes bleeding damage. That's a nice visual cue.

In some TB games, wounded men / critters leave bloody footprints - or just random blood spatter - when walking around. Makes it possible to "track down the wounded beast". =)

The severity of the wound would then be visible by the frequency of blood spatter - as in chance to create blood per tile walked.

[Gauddlike]

Would you be able to just have a single injury warning screen that has a list of all troops in need of attention?

A single pop up screen that just tells you people are injured and in need of help.

Medic requests are coming in from:

John Smith

Jack Jones

Peter Phillips

If you can manage the blood drops as well then that is more than sufficient I would think.

The message tells you that someone needs help and point you at the names then the blood reminds you as you cycle through.

I like the idea of injured people leaving blood trails as they walk as well, more blood spots means more/worse injuries.

Another reminder that the person you are moving had best be moving towards a medic.

[TrashMan]

1) the amount of bleeding from a wound should be variable. Not always 3 HP per turn. It could be 1 HP per turn. Or 2.

2) As for UI - I think a row of portraits with a health bar (and wound icons) would do wonders for both easy troop selection and for at-a-glance squad info

3) Bleeding being treated like in Jagged Alliance 2 sounds great. Bandaging doesn't restore HP, it takes care of wounds and stops bleeding, and bleeding units leave blood trails.

[TrashMan]

Here are two examples of such a UI:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/s8uUtvOVPXo/0.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NB14I8Du044/T9Nw5PlNbCI/AAAAAAAAAL8/4WGIkzY8aFM/s1600/UFO-Battlescape.jpg

The mini-portraits and info bars can be put at the top, or even ebtter - to the side of the screen.

[Gorlom]

What's wrong with the current UI, the bars with portrait on mouseover?

Personally I find that preferable to the UI examples you linked.

[TrashMan]

Because being able to tell from a glance the status of all of your solider is easier then go looking for them and clicking/howering?

Not that's anything wrong with the current interface. A status icon above a specific soldier slot/bar would be all the adition necessary. You cna already see the general health, morale and TU's.

But I do find that portraits make em more easily identifiable than numbers.

[Okim]

More info above the agent`s bar is a good thing, imho. You can put here whatever you like - bleeding wound (blood drop), mind controlled (alien face), panicked (horror face), suppression (arrow pointing downwards), med-kit in inventory (red cross to quickly find your medics), other special-purpose devices, rocket/spray of bullets for quick access to grenadier/gunner, ammo icon for those who is low or out of ammo etc.

(very simplistic representation of what i mean)

[runequester]

1) the amount of bleeding from a wound should be variable. Not always 3 HP per turn. It could be 1 HP per turn. Or 2.

Could do something like 25% chance of the bleeding reducing 1 point, 25% chance of increasing 1 point, 50% of bleeding the same amount as last turn.

Injury might get more aggravated, or it might be just a temporary thing.

[Gorlom]

isn't it easier to simply have stacking bleeding effects instead of having one bleed effect with variable numbers?

[Mordachai]

I liked the system from x-com. It was simple, it was straightforward and it was deadly. In my opinion the system for bleeding wounds can't be too complicated with alot of random elements (after the fact) or it will simply cause more annoyance than fun.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Mordachai
Spelling

[TrashMan]

More info above the agent`s bar is a good thing, imho. You can put here whatever you like - bleeding wound (blood drop), mind controlled (alien face), panicked (horror face), suppression (arrow pointing downwards), med-kit in inventory (red cross to quickly find your medics), other special-purpose devices, rocket/spray of bullets for quick access to grenadier/gunner, ammo icon for those who is low or out of ammo etc.

(very simplistic representation of what i mean)

Good work Okim. That's exactly what I meant.

Some of hte icons could use some work, but you got the gist of it.

EDIT:

Don't see stacking as easier OR more sensible. After all, do all bleeding wounds bleed the same?

I for one never considered the JA2 or the X-com system too complicated

Edited June 29, 2012 by TrashMan

[Okim]

Nice to see you here, Mordachai (if you are the one i know from SOTS-verse)

Yeah, Xcom somehow managed to create a simple, but yet deadly efficient wound system. As i wrote before - all the fatal wounds actually had impact on soldier performence.

In Xcom Apoc this system was also present, but the healing process was, well, upgraded. However i hated heal-only-yourself system as unconscious guys were not able to do that. Also there were no options for stimulants and painkillers.

Silent Storm series had a very advanced wound system with deeper penalties and complex system of healing (you need a really powerful medic to conduct healing on the battlefield). That game and UFO Aftermath (as well as XCOM1-2) are the only ones that allowed you to carry wounded soldiers for a safer place.

Jagged Alliance 2 with its unofficial reincarnation introduced lots of various penalties for being injured. Simple wounds bleed your soldiers to death. Some critical ones in head, shoulder, torso, legs subtracted some of your soldier`s ability scores. A rare hit in the head could blind your man and force him to move slowly or risk tramping every time. Leg hits were a serious problem to your soldiers as they often could make him to fall and lay for a turn or two.

UFO AM, AS, AL had a simple system of injuries that actually had no critical/fatal wounds. Your soldier`s health was divided into three types. Permanent damage, temporary damage and stun damage. Should your soldier get a lot of temporal damage - he will become unconscious and his temporal damage will start to convert into permanent resulting in death if no medical assistance is applied.

Fallout had another interesting health/criticals system. Your char could get eye damage, crippled arms/legs and windowed (tactics) damage if getting critically hit. A single critical in head could result in an instant death regardless of actual damage (killed once a Rat God with a single hit of a crowbar. Was very immerse).

[Gauddlike]

More info above the agent`s bar is a good thing, imho. You can put here whatever you like - bleeding wound (blood drop), mind controlled (alien face), panicked (horror face), suppression (arrow pointing downwards), med-kit in inventory (red cross to quickly find your medics), other special-purpose devices, rocket/spray of bullets for quick access to grenadier/gunner, ammo icon for those who is low or out of ammo etc.

(very simplistic representation of what i mean)

All of those buttons and icons look like they would be distracting and get in the way.

If you have someone with a medikit who is low on ammo and who has been suppressed and injured by an enemy he sees so his morale has dropped he would already have 6 icons above his quick select icon.

It seems a bit much to have all of that info displayed in a place where it creeps up over the play area.

Maybe if that icon was visible for a few seconds after the related condition was applied it would work.

Then you would need to hold down a key, say alt, to make them all visible again.

That would keep your screen clear of the clutter but have the information easily available when you need it.

The exception might be visible enemies, maybe that should give their button a different coloured border or something so you know who has a target.