[v9.1] Ground Combat - Buildings do not get transperent

[oracle1990]

In my second mission this happend:

It was working correct in my first mission.

Third mission - can you see the soldier in the midle of the pictures, behinde the Chinook? Just a litle enoying

Maybee more than a litle anoying...

You have to have one soldier to go inside a building, just to get a clear view of what happen on the other side of the building.

Edited March 12, 2012 by oracle1990

[Gauddlike]

Do you mean the inside did not become visible when you moved someone inside?

Chris mentioned in the V9.1 post that building external walls are now fully visible while you have no one inside them.

It makes things harder because there is no way to see through the walls to the areas behind yet.

[catmorbid]

I get the idea, and it's actually pretty cool to see the full buildings. However, it does get extremely annoying when you cannot see on the other side of the building. Non-rotating camera, remember? The way I see it, there are a couple of things you could do to fix it though: for example, make the floors show an outline through the wall, so that you can see some of the geometry, or make the walls actually transparent when a soldier is behind it and thus otherwise be out of sight for the player. There also needs to be some way of discerning doors on the blocked side of buildings, as well as aliens and civilians.

[Gauddlike]

Chris has mentioned that he was looking into a good method for showing objects behind walls in the future.

It isn't really a bug if it is wall transparency the OP was thinking about as that is not a feature currently in the game.

I was assuming he had problems with the buildings becoming transparent when he moved inside.

[Hellstormer]

When playing, and after having had a soldier (or more) pass through a building perhaps when all the soldiers leave the building it can remain "pared down" as if a soldier were inside it? It's very difficult to see what is going on during battles when you can't even see your soldiers. You then also can't click on individual soldiers but are forced to use the 1-8 icons to switch. It also makes it a bit more irritating to plan out turns and moves when you aren't exactly sure what tile your soldiers are occupying. I can see this system leading to many otherwise avoidable deaths.

Further it will (farther into the game) seriously hamper your ability to fight at certain angles if you have to leave one guy in each building just to see what is going on. I don't think this will have a quick and easy solution either. I understand that it's a game where you shouldn't be omniscient and seeing past buildings from the start might be a bad thing - but not being able to see where your soldiers are at is also not a good thing.

Edit: Also right now it is designed to be this way so I don't think it's a bug.

[Chris]

Yes, this is a valid concern that I'll have to think through. Buildings should be reduced to the correct level when a unit passes behind them really.

[irongamer]

While it sounds like units will be visible behind objects in a later patch I still found view direction odd.

In the first three images

If I face west, looking at the building, I see some of the upper level structure. I can see the first floor and much of it is covered.

If I face the south I can see part of the front upper level structure, which blocks some of the first floor.

If I face east the upper structure completely disappears (changing the camera elevation doesn't change this) and I can see the first floor best looking away from the building.

In the last two images

This occurs on most buildings. If you face a unit away from a building you see the ground floor. There are cases where the floor is completely black (or maybe the roof is completely black), but if I face away from the building parts of the floor becomes visible.

Maybe this is related to not having object transparency working (or what Chris just mentioned above). Currently it is a bit confusing and seems backwards of how it should work.

Edited March 12, 2012 by irongamer

[Chris]

That's...peculiar....

[Gauddlike]

It looks to me like some of the wall pieces are not in view of any unit so they are not displayed.

Your troops don't yet know they exist so the game doesn't show them.

It is only after they have been seen that they get displayed and cover the building internals.

I have no idea what is happening in the second set of pictures though, that really is odd.

[irongamer]

While I like seeing the full size buildings, it is difficult to play without being able to see units behind them.

Currently when no unit is in a building you see the entire outside of the building, regardless of camera level setting. When no unit is in a building it should only show the outside of the building up to the camera level you have set. Right now it feels like the camera doesn't do anything (I think that is because I'm expecting X-Com camera behavior).

The image below has no units in any of the buildings. Each building appears to be viewed at a different camera level: 2,3, and 4. The camera setting is at 1. Here is where I have a disconnect with the camera, maybe it is just me. If the first outside level of each building was showing it would make more sense to me.

In the image

Red Ellipses - It is difficult to work with units behind buildings

Red Square - Unexplored roof tiles are transparent, maybe they could be black instead.

[winterwolves]

I noticed the crazy LOS going on as well. It happens only in night missions, I am pretty sure.

Also, you cannot tell a person to walk to a spot that you cannot see due to upper levels blocking your view.

[Spectarz]

Would this really be that difficult to correct? Just make it operate the exact same way X-com did 20 yrs ago. Seems it would be fairly simple to duplicate a mechanic perfected 20yrs ago with todays knowledge. I am not a programmer, but I don't quite understand why a game made in 1994 would be difficult in the least to duplicate today with added features that were impossible back then.

Edit: In other words you should not ever see the upper levels unless you specifically have a soldier selected that is on that level or you have the camera set up a level.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Spectarz

[Gorlom]

Spectarz thats how it worked up till V 9.0 I beleive. Which leads me to think seeing the whole building is an added intended feature, that Chris and the gang has not gotten to work flawlessly yet.

When it does work wouldnt it be rather cool to see the whole building/ship untill you can acctually see inside of it? Just need some kind of outline or function to see soldiers and npcs that are behind walls properly.

[Spectarz]

I understand what you are saying, that would be a feature that wasn't quite possible back in the day. However it seems to me that it would be much more difficult to get those mechanics ironed out. However I would not mind at all if it worked the same as it did in original xcom.

Then maybe in late beta have the coding worked out to add in full featured buildings with transparancy added in to show things tha tyou can see. You would also have to add in transparency to show civilians and aliens that your soldiers/vehicles have eyesight on also. Seems like a premium feature that would be possible if they could come into some kind of larger funding. However I don't like that prospect either as it will end up two ways. Either the game continues as a true to form X-com successor, or because of profit it gets changed into what the financiers believe it should be aka Firaxis' watered down console friendly version of x-com....

[Spectarz]

Actually Gorlom,

I am not sure I would even like full featured buildings with limited transparency showing entities you have line of sight on. When you move a soldier into position in front of a door and open it, you should have clear vision of everything that soldier has LoS on, you would have to fade out the whole side wall anyways to see the inside of the building in order to simulate what your soldier can see.

[Gorlom]

Spectraz im not sure what you are refering to. First post: What investors? Us?

Second post: Are you expecting the full building to be visible at all times even when a soldier is inside the building? I don't think thats the way it is intended to work. As soon as you can see into the building the camera is supposed to "collapse" to the floor you have visibility on. The shinethrough/transparency I was talking about was when moveing behind a building, not inside it. Depending on how its done, opacity, outline, clear hole or combination, it could work really well. (AD had found some nice image describing different ways to show objects behind other objects. Forgot in which thread it was though)

I don't think there will be much enviromental items hidden behind buildings. City/industrial maps have high buildings yes, but also use roads between the buildings. You wont be finding much surprisesbecause of how logical and simple city maps are. Most other maps most likely won't have that high buildings that it becomes an issue.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Gorlom

[Spectarz]

I thought you were expecting the full outer building to be visible unless you had a soldier inside. If that is so, that is exactly what I dont' think I would enjoy too much. That is the way it is now except for night missions. I like the single floor visible only after you have gained los on the inside with soldier/vehicle.

[Gorlom]

I expect everything to get clearer later on with feedback and such.

[Gauddlike]

The point of an alpha is to introduce features and then perfect them.

If you leave feature introduction until later into a beta stage then you are shooting yourself in the foot.

The good thing about having testers at this stage is that Goldhawk can put in features like this one and see how we all feel about it.

If we really don't like it, or it doesn't work as well as we would like then it can be removed.

Personally I would like to see the outer shell of the buildings but I would prefer if it was semi transparent.

I would have to play around a bit and see how that view would work in some situations though.

For example what would you display if you had someone on the 3rd floor of a building, or even on the roof.

How would it work if your troops could see an alien looking out of the window on the northeast side of the building?

If the building shell was visible would you (as the player) still be able to see and target that enemy?

[Gorlom]

For example what would you display if you had someone on the 3rd floor of a building, or even on the roof.

How would it work if your troops could see an alien looking out of the window on the northeast side of the building?

If the building shell was visible would you (as the player) still be able to see and target that enemy?

I'm voteing for a coloured outline on units shining through the enviromental graphics. =)

[Gauddlike]

Outlines are difficult because of the way the game uses spritesheets apparently.

I am pretty sure Chris said to get an outline you would have to make a version of each sprite that was outlined, the game engine cannot do that on the fly.

It simply displays whatever image it is told to use so it doesn't know where the edges of that image are to outline it.

[iamkyon]

Depending on how its done, opacity, outline, clear hole or combination, it could work really well. (AD had found some nice image describing different ways to show objects behind other objects. Forgot in which thread it was though)

Here, let me help:

[Gorlom]

Outlines are difficult because of the way the game uses spritesheets apparently.

I am pretty sure Chris said to get an outline you would have to make a version of each sprite that was outlined, the game engine cannot do that on the fly.

It simply displays whatever image it is told to use so it doesn't know where the edges of that image are to outline it.

AH that explains a bit. darn it.

Ps. thanks for finding the image iamkyon

[Gauddlike]

That information may be outdated or badly recalled.

It could be that Chris and the team have found a way around that but it sounded like an engine limitation rather than something that could be easily changed.

[Spectarz]

For example what would you display if you had someone on the 3rd floor of a building, or even on the roof.

How would it work if your troops could see an alien looking out of the window on the northeast side of the building?

If the building shell was visible would you (as the player) still be able to see and target that enemy?

Well I would suggest it working exactly the same way it does in the original X-com. Which means you can only see the full building when the camera setting is on high enough setting to do so. If your unit has LoS on an enemy unit through the window then of course you can see and target them.