mangalores Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 Overall imo the question should be: How is the player supposed to play the game to counter PSI attacks? What kind of measures are available to him and what advantages and possibly disadvantages should they give him? As is a bunch of reapers or a squad of elite Androns with heavy drones is a scare because you as the player are expected to somehow tackle the tactical situation against those odds. This might include anything from excessive use of explosives to running away. With PSI attacks I do not see the gameplay aspect aka what am I as player to do about it. It's essentially too random atm. The morale degradation might be fine as just another tactical aspect (though I still don't see much to do about it) but e.g. berzerking against friendlies or mind control just does stuff. I'm just in that phase against Caesans and praetors and I essentially use every gamey trick in the book because gamey tricks are the only thing you have as tactical options against PSI attacks. I didn't feel that need even against a swarm of Androns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larus Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 (edited) If I wouldn't heavily use the "weapon drop exploit" where I let all of guys drop their weapons any singel turn would I probably not be able to make it through anything with berserk and MC. It completly negates the berserk ability but that shouldn't be a valid solution imo. I'm not a programmer and I can't say what could be a realistic solution but could you redesign the psi-powers as a invisibel weapon? You could make the hit chance depending on the moral/bravery and they wouldn't be able to target anyone who isn't in sight anymore. Edited April 20, 2014 by Larus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silencer Posted April 20, 2014 Share Posted April 20, 2014 First they need to fix berserk not being LOS only, and they need to fix soldier X got unnerved but soldier Y went berserk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anyone Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I've played base assault today. I've fired all soldiers with bravery under 65 during playing (assuming that this would make difference). In the alien base one of my elite soldier got MC. One shoot three other elite soldiers (90 hp predator/wolf armored) in single turn with mag rifle. Few turns later another incident two more elite soldiers dead. Playing iron man I've finished this mission "successfully" and got final report. 5 soldiers completely dead. I really don't know, what could I do differently. Except using drop weapon exploit or go grenade only way. I hope this will be changed before final release. I'm not going to assault another base or ufo with psi aliens in current state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theothersider Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 ver 21 stable..medium dif..large andron base..a nightmare..after fleeing from a large ceasan base i have tried another base..impossible alien psi power,i have sent the best of the best of my soldiers,wolf armours,plasma weapons and fusion granades,morale over 75 for every soldiers and after four round of combat loose half of my forces by alien controlled comrades..the game is too frustrating and umbalanced now,prefer the old version with nerfed psi power..i hope a reset and lowered psi power in future( limited tile radius from the controller:es 20 or 30 tiles,or enhanced RR with bonus for high morale troops,or some protection devices(ex mind shields,special helmets..)a large base is now simply unplayable or extemely frustrating or fatal for next missions..form a squad of decent troops in middle game is far too difficult,if i loose half or 3/4 of vet troops every base..only start new game and blame.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amaror Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Yeah they really need to get balance asap. The current balance of them is just abysmal. Tie moral into the resits mechanic, give us a way to increase bravery the current one is stupid and another easy balance would be to just decrease the aliens psionic strength considerably. Exspecially Caesans should not be able to use Psionics this proficiently. Also: Berzerk is NOT only Los currently. I had Soldiers getting unnerved and berzerking right in front of the ufo door, were no alien could possibly see them, since all of the outside aliens were dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzzyguy Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I've played base assault today. I've fired all soldiers with bravery under 65 during playing (assuming that this would make difference). In the alien base one of my elite soldier got MC. One shoot three other elite soldiers (90 hp predator/wolf armored) in single turn with mag rifle. Few turns later another incident two more elite soldiers dead. Playing iron man I've finished this mission "successfully" and got final report. 5 soldiers completely dead.I really don't know, what could I do differently. Except using drop weapon exploit or go grenade only way. I hope this will be changed before final release. I'm not going to assault another base or ufo with psi aliens in current state. Absolutely the same things for me. In original X-COm elite and very psi-strength soldiers have very good chances vs alien psi atack. And moral condition plays very important role. If Psi will not be balanced i will quit this project and play the original x-com or Open X-com projects.. Becoause these ones looks less like a masochism)) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amaror Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Another big problem with psionics is that it makes caesans way too powerfull. Before psionics they were balanced to be roughly the same power compared to androns and sebs, but now they got psionics on top of that and that makes them just do incredibly powerfull, it's rediculous. They should get nerfed combat powers to acomodate the psy powers, like lower health for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Marine Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 At least introduce an object that can be placed in the backpack that offers the player a chance to resist being mind-controlled. Having a fully equipped team get splattered by an alien mind-controlling a guy in Predator armour who proceeds to spray LMG plasma fire decimating most of my squad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcanyon Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 I've said this before but I think it bears repeating: 1. You need to be able to issue orders to your soldiers that only non-lethal methods will be used on comrades who are controlled. It seems highly unlikely that people would shoot their friends the instant they became mind controlled. 2. There needs to be some sort of research tied into psionic resistance. I'm thinking it should be triggered by the capture of the alien leader. If neither of those happen I think I'll just play with the nerfed psi powers (or turned off). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caaygun Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 How about making it possible so that using a stun rod against your own soldier clears Psi effects for this and the next turn. This would provide some defense, and it is not exploitable, because after a while the soldier may actually get unconscious from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silenced Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Well, had a Terror Mission with Ceasans ... I think I do not need to mention how it ended. First turn: 11 soldiers on team, 3 soldiers mind controlled, all 3 heavy weapon guys with MAG weaponry. 3 casualties. Next turn: next casualties. Next turn: Mission Over! I decided to reload and drop all weapons at the end of the turn. Was doable that way. For some reason it's currently not really playable as soon as things like these happen. Well, it is, with lots of frustration. Anything else is really fine, but something that you absolutely can't do anything about is annoying and kills the game in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 (edited) The good news is that I think GH is looking at a possible LOS/psionics bug that is making them way more powerful than they are supposed to be. Berserk and mind control are supposed to be line of sight only and people have reported that they work anywhere on the map right now. Maybe we'll get a better idea of what GH actually intended in the next e-build. Edited April 23, 2014 by StellarRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcanyon Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 > that they work anywhere on the map right now Oh, yes, yes indeed that's what's happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anyone Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Even if they were LOS, they would still be masochistic. Alien come out of dark. Take control of mag rifle guy in single turn. You have 3 soldiers dead. How is player supposed to counter that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amaror Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Even if they were LOS, they would still be masochistic. Alien come out of dark. Take control of mag rifle guy in single turn. You have 3 soldiers dead. How is player supposed to counter that? Well there you can at least kill the alien with reaction fire before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Marine Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Unless they're those teleporting xenos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anyone Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Well there you can at least kill the alien with reaction fire before. Yes, you are right. And this would be definitely improvement to current states. But what are odds of that? 1%? 2%? 5%? You have to have someone with enough TUs (players decision). This psi alien should be one that takes the agro and is killed. This is highly unlikely. But still better than nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 (edited) It would also depend on the TU cost of psi powers. If they are high enough then aliens would be unable to move far before using them. The down side to that is having a high TU cost reduces your chance to reaction fire at the alien before they could use the power. Their initiative would be high until after the power was used. the alien would also need to get in close first so although they wouldn't be close enough to use the power in their turn you could spot them and kill them in your turn without them ever managing to use it. That is an improvement as you can prevent debilitating psi effects by being proactive. Edited April 24, 2014 by Gauddlike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Caine Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Anyone, the odds are pretty good. It depends on what you're armed with. If I take a leaf out of your book and arm everyone with pistols and grenades, I get a sweet 1.5x modifier to reflexes. At 50% TUs (not unreasonable for that combo of weapons) I have enough for 2 shots, and even GI Joe will stand a pretty good chance of getting a shot off. If I want more punch but keep the modifier, then I can go shotgun. As Caesan leaders and Praetors are almost (but not quite) exclusively found in bases and UFOs, the short range of pistols and shotguns are mitigated and the cramped quarters of a UFO are where those weapons shine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabill Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 As Caesan leaders and Praetors are almost (but not quite) exclusively found in bases and UFOs, the short range of pistols and shotguns are mitigated and the cramped quarters of a UFO are where those weapons shine. They should also be the best weapons for dealing with Mind Control anyway, because they're the weapons most heavily negated by armour and therefore the weapons that should do the least damage to your own troops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaladinF1 Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 (edited) V21 stable. Hard, Iron man (first game). Massive ship, caesans. Turn 2: 5 of 12 soldiers mind controlled, killed some others - gg. Someone please just tell developer of this game to play his own game a little. Game is completely broken by psionics. I think most people in this thread are talking about ships with 1 caesan leader with MC (it means 1 mind contol in 2 turns). Later you will face 3, even FIVE mind controled in turn (bravery means nothing, it don't protect at all, I don't know why someone write it helps. Aliens most likely take my most brave soldiers (70+)). Psionics have to be countered by training psionic-resistant soldiers, like in original game, where you was able to hire 100 people, make psi lab, find from them 10 with 80+ pri resistance, and after training them to elites from zero you will get 95%+ mind controll resistance. That's how it should be. Game is just broken now. Thanks for attention, just registered to post this. P.S. I've lost one of 2 my elite soldiers who was alive for 60+ missions, and this done by psionics. Don't even try to tell me it's like when alien comes from corner. ALL OTHER THINGS can be countered easily even on Iron Man mode by playing safe enough. Now I just stopped playing cause any ship with more than one mind controller means instant lose if you don't drop your weapons at the end of each turn that is completely stupid. Edited April 24, 2014 by PaladinF1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Psionics have to be countered by training psionic-resistant soldiers, like in original game, where you was able to hire 100 people, make psi lab, find from them 10 with 80+ pri resistance, and after training them to elites from zero you will get 95%+ mind controll resistance. That's how it should be. It doesn't HAVE to be done that way, it is just how it was done before. In fact I would prefer if it was not done that way. It was not an interesting or fun mechanic. Hire soldiers, put them in training to see who was worth keeping, fire the rest, repeat. It didn't really provide any different tactics either it just provided some immunity to try and bring the psi powers back into a proper balance. If all soldiers have a resist mechanism available to them and psi powers have their limitations there should be no need to rely on only hiring soldiers with the one stat that nullifies psi attacks. We are nowhere near that point at the moment but some of the suggestions made in this thread could bring that closer. I personally hope that basing resistance on morale will work out. The player can increase his soldiers morale by positioning their soldiers or taking out enemies. If psi has line of sight then the player can actively hunt nearby psi enemies. It provides a way for the player to counter their weaknesses by their actions in the ground combat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaladinF1 Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 To be fair, I must correct myself, not psionics, only mind control breaks the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Yeah that is a very good point. Hopefully we will soon see the possible line of sight bug found and fixed then proper balancing of psi powers can be pushed forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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