Ground Combat Balance Discussion - V21 Experimental Balance Patch!

[Dranak]

The difference between accuracy levels feels too small. It would be nice to have situations between making one accurate shot, and two less accurate shots. Now the accuracy bonuses are so small that it's only worth using higher TU shots if you don't have another use for those TUs, and two snap shots is pretty much always better than any other shooting choice (if you can afford it).

Similarly, snap shots (and alien reaction fire) in general feel a bit too accurate. Alien accuracy is high enough in general that you can't really ever end a turn in LOS of an alien and expect to survive.

[legit1337]

Multiple snap shots being more TU efficient then a single aimed shot was a problem in the OG as well.

This should be fixed so that an aimed shot is always better then its TU equivalent in snap shots. A snap shot is something you should only take if you dont have enough TUs for a normal/aimed shot.

[Ol' Stinky]

The difference between accuracy levels feels too small. It would be nice to have situations between making one accurate shot, and two less accurate shots. Now the accuracy bonuses are so small that it's only worth using higher TU shots if you don't have another use for those TUs, and two snap shots is pretty much always better than any other shooting choice (if you can afford it).

Similarly, snap shots (and alien reaction fire) in general feel a bit too accurate. Alien accuracy is high enough in general that you can't really ever end a turn in LOS of an alien and expect to survive.

I'm fine with going back to the model of snaps being less efficient in terms of acc/AP than norm/aimed as long as shotguns and pistols are exceptions. As close combat weapons they need to hit in close combat.

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I think that all shots, regardless of being in range or not, should cause suppression.

First of all, a binary "yes/no" is unintuitive, considering that the accuracy and damage penalties are gradual: a player's going to assume that suppression would be the same way, if they even know that suppression drops off at all. On top of that, there's no internal logic to the game's setting that suggests a bullet would lose all suppressive power past an arbitrary point.

Secondly, it'll open up range as something easier to play with. You could have assault rifles better in the 1-18 range than sniper rifles, while snipers start to beat out assault rifles beyond that. Without changing the suppression rule, you can't try this stuff out. At the moment assaults do less damage to try and keep them equal but not better than snipers, and as a result I'm rolling with sniper rifles as the default weapon.

[legit1337]

I'm fine with going back to the model of snaps being less efficient in terms of acc/AP than norm/aimed as long as shotguns and pistols are exceptions. As close combat weapons they need to hit in close combat.

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I think that all shots' date=' regardless of being in range or not, should cause suppression.

First of all, a binary "yes/no" is unintuitive, considering that the accuracy and damage penalties are gradual: a player's going to assume that suppression would be the same way, if they even know that suppression drops off at all. On top of that, there's no internal logic to the game's setting that suggests a bullet would lose all suppressive power past an arbitrary point.

Secondly, it'll open up range as something easier to play with. You could have assault rifles better in the 1-18 range than sniper rifles, while snipers start to beat out assault rifles beyond that. Without changing the suppression rule, you can't try this stuff out. At the moment assaults do less damage to try and keep them equal but not better than snipers, and as a result I'm rolling with sniper rifles as the default weapon.[/quote']

Shotguns and pistols are so close ranged that firing a snap shot shouldn't matter. You shouldn't need to weight the snap shot because the range (you should be using them at short range) should give an accuracy boost and compensate for it.

IRL most semi-automatic pistols aren't accurate at all past 150 ft anyway. As someone who has shot quite a few in my time, trying to hit something at that distance or beyond is more luck then anything.

Edited January 21, 2014 by legit1337

[Ol' Stinky]

It does matter, though. A lot of the time at close range, you can't afford to miss, and the short range bonus isn't a huge boost until you're a couple of tiles away. Historically, this has been a real problem for the shotty, and has led me to dump them for grenades instead.

[legit1337]

It does matter' date=' though. A lot of the time at close range, you can't afford to miss, and the short range bonus isn't a huge boost until you're a couple of tiles away. Historically, this has been a real problem for the shotty, and has led me to dump them for grenades instead.[/quote']

Really? I'm my experience I have around 50+accuracy with snap shot shotguns, even about 5-6 tiles away.

[Ol' Stinky]

Really? I'm my experience I have around 50+accuracy with snap shot shotguns, even about 5-6 tiles away.

That's with ~80 acc., which is pretty high. With max accuracy it should be ~65% to hit, and that's not overpowered. Outside of burst fire modes, the shotgun has the worst accuracy for its snap shot at x0.65 (x0.8 for an assault rifle, x1 for a sniper, x0.7 for a pistol) so it's not like it's godly. I don't want to see it nerfed. In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing it pushed up a bit.

[legit1337]

That's with ~80 acc.' date=' which is pretty high. With max accuracy it should be ~65% to hit, and that's not overpowered. Outside of burst fire modes, the shotgun has the worst accuracy for its snap shot at x0.65 (x0.8 for an assault rifle, x1 for a sniper, x0.7 for a pistol) so it's not like it's godly. I don't want to see it nerfed. In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing it pushed up a bit.[/quote']

Ah, I see what you mean now. Yea if you are going to be nerfing the global accuracy of snap shots you would want to take a look at the accuracy modifiers per weapon to make sure that nothing becomes TOO gimped.

[Nick7532]

So, no one cares about broken local forces I guess?

[StellarRat]

So, no one cares about broken local forces I guess?

I care and I posted a report in the AI bugs section that you can second if you want. The civs were much more aggressive a couple builds ago. It may well have something to do with the weapons they are carrying. I noticed that farmers with shotguns are much more aggressive and fire far more than other armed civilians.

[legit1337]

I care and I posted a report in the AI bugs section that you can second if you want. The civs were much more aggressive a couple builds ago. It may well have something to do with the weapons they are carrying. I noticed that farmers with shotguns are much more aggressive and fire far more than other armed civilians.

Or they could just be exercising their right to bear arms in defense of their homes lol.

[Max_Caine]

This is more of a feedback thing than a balance issue but in Veteran when I shoot at an Andron, a Sebillian or a Caesan I don't know if armour is absorbing the shot or if the alien just has a lot of HP - all I see is the injured animation. Seeing as how it looks like only Androns are going to wear armour, could I hear the riccochet sound when an Andron is hit? That would provide adequate feedback that it's not the Andron being a bullet sponge, it's the Andron having armour.

EDIT: And linked to that, if 80% of aliens are only going to have HP why bother giving human weapons armour mitigation? It literally doesn't matter in most cases and in the cases where it does, armour mitigation devalues armour to the point where you may as well have not bothered giving them armour in the first place.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Max_Caine

[legit1337]

@Max_Caine

Everyone has been asking for alien stats to be different from each other for quite a while.

I think other races need armor too, not just androns. But androns should have the most. Sebs should have the least (but still some) and have a crapload of health to make up for it.

This way, weapons with good armor mitigation are good against androns, but not so much against sebs.

The whole balance of enemy health/armor against xenonaut weapons stats needs to be looked at.

[Max_Caine]

Are we likely to see back the psychic powers: Paralyse, Hallucination and Locate Enemies? I know they were excised at various points due to buggy handling, but if Psychic powers are what the Caesans have going for them, they need 'em.

[Aaron]

Paralyse is supposed to be working, but I can't say I've tested it for a while so I will look into it again.

The other two were not just removed because they were a pain to implement, but also because they didn't really do a great deal for gameplay; locate enemies tends to be either so weak as to be useless (the AI already predicts where you are likely to be) or so powerful (like letting enemies shoot you out of the FOW from great distances) as to be annoying. Hallucination had lots of consequences that were never very well though out.

Caesans still have Fear, Bezerk, Dread and Mind Control so they are hardly lacking abilities.

[Ol' Stinky]

Are we likely to see back the psychic powers: Paralyse, Hallucination and Locate Enemies? I know they were excised at various points due to buggy handling, but if Psychic powers are what the Caesans have going for them, they need 'em.

Seconding this, particularly the first two. I'm also gonna repeat that since Xenonauts can't get the aliens' psychic powers, there's no reason Caesans can't have some powers from the get go. The AI seems to prefer taking a shot to using powers anyway, which is great since psychic powers become a non-lethal counter to Xenonaut smoke spam. Obviously stuff like Mind Control shouldn't be present in light scout battles, but Fear works fine there.

Aaron: I don't know if you're talking from a coding perspective or a gameplay one when it comes to Hallucination. If it's the former, well, I can't argue on that point since I have no idea. If it's the latter, I'll get down on my knees and ask you to reconsider. Every response I read regarding Hal. in action was really positive, on the lines of, "What just happened - whoa!"

Edited January 24, 2014 by Ol' Stinky

[Max_Caine]

While Dread is available as an option to Caesans, from a standpoint of flavour and differentiation I would prefer that it remain the preserve of the Praetors. They are the meanest muthas in the house, and they deserve to have something that you don't see until they turn up.

[Skitso]

As Max above said, we definitely need something new, exciting and surprising to the end game. I think Xenonauts severly lacks in GC gameplay progression and variation department atm. Before my holiday I played a bit further than ever before and I felt that while more and more tougher ufo's spawned, the ground combat didn't offer new experiences, surprises or challenges nearly enough as the game went on.

The AC (or should I say Geoscape gameplay as I autoresolved everything?) felt like too much work and not very fun, while the mid game GC was still fun but almost exactly the same as the very first mission and got pretty stale. Even enemy unit numbers on bigger ufo's felt bit too low for my experienced team.

I hope Chris and co. finds a way to implement more dramatic progression and interesting gameplay changing mechanics and AI to the GC portion of the game so players feel challenged and the game fresh.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Skitso

[StellarRat]

As Max above said, we definitely need something new, exciting and surprising to the end game. I think Xenonauts severly lacks in GC gameplay progression and variation department atm.

It really wasn't much different in the OG though. I mean once you've captured every type of UFO/base, done each type of mission, and seen all the different alien types and weapons it's bound to get a little routine. Half the problem could be that many of us (probably even you) have been playing the game for year or two now in various forms. I'm saving the final mission for the actual finished game. Other than that, I'm going to try to keep it interesting by changing the difficulty and attempting different strategies.

[Skitso]

Yeah, but the enemy variation is a bit lacking compared to OG. The aliens in Xenonauts are pretty much clones of each other with slight stat differences only. I'd love to see manipulated humans on the alien side for example... more enemy weapon variation (building leveling explosions!), more and wider range of psychic attacks so they could be introduced earlier, more drastic changes how different alien species' AI behave, tougher "boss" units etc. Nobody is saying there couldn't be MORE variation than in the OG, now we have less I'm afraid?

What I guess I'm trying to say is, the game needs to up it's tempo towards it's climax more clearly in GC portion so you have to face new and unique tough situations while getting closer to the ultimate goal.

[StellarRat]

Yeah, but the enemy variation is a bit lacking compared to OG. The aliens in Xenonauts are pretty much clones of each other with slight stat differences only. I'd love to see manipulated humans on the alien side for example... more enemy weapon variation (building leveling explosions!), more and wider range of psychic attacks so they could be introduced earlier, more drastic changes how different alien species' AI behave, tougher "boss" units etc. Nobody is saying there couldn't be MORE variation than in the OG, now we have less I'm afraid?

What I guess I'm trying to say is, the game needs to up it's tempo towards it's climax more clearly in GC portion so you have to face new and unique tough situations while getting closer to the ultimate goal.

Hmm...don't we have as many different types of aliens and weapons? I think we do. I'm all for more variation, but adding weapons and alien types is probably THE MOST time consuming and expensive thing GH can do. That means more art, more sounds, possibly more programming... I'm thinking it's a bit late for that. Maybe the aliens stats could be more variable though within reason.

[legit1337]

I always thought that "elite" rank alien troops should only appear sparingly and they should be REALLY tough. They are the alien's version of special forces with all of the training, experience, and technology that entails. They are probably veterans of countless wars on many different planets and should be total badasses. I think they should only appear in base defense missions, and terror sites in the LATE LATE game, and the final mission. They should never appear in any other mission because of their value as special forces troops, they would never get stuck guarding a ship, or as a garrison of a base because that would be a waste of their abilities.

Alien HP should remain the same amongst the ranks IMO. The only difference in stats should be armor, TU, accuracy, strength, and reflexes (may have missed a couple).

I think we are good on alien variety. We already have 1 more intelligent species then in the OG. However I think the inclusion of an additional ground mission type is needed as we only have 5 currently.

It would also be cool to see human troops start appearing amongst the alien forces once countries start surrendering. Imagine a terror attack on a city perpetrated by humans with tanks as the humans' "terror unit".

I agree with Skitso's assessment that the lategame needs spicing up a little bit. But i think everything needed to do that is already in the game and just needs to be tweaked.

What I think the game does NEED right now is three things:

-Morale should affect aliens (Even the OG had this... they shouldn't run at the first sign of gunfire but if they are losing they should start freaking out a little and not just stand there and mindlessly fight to the death... If I snipe an alien officer I want to see deleterious effect's on the alien's combat performance. It is both more realistic, and opens up additional tactics to be used on the battlescape)

-Different regions need to have different funding on the geoscape, balanced to where having a base almost anywhere on the planet is at least "viable" some regions will always be "more optimal" then others obviously. (SERIOUSLY THIS... why hasn't it been done yet? It is a HUGE part of geoscape balance)

-Mixed crew missions. I want to see the different aliens working together as a cohesive fighting unit. This was in x-com:Terror from the Deep, and it worked well there so it isn't entirely unprecedented. (These can appear whenever... early/lategame)

[StellarRat]

1)I always thought that "elite" rank alien troops should only appear sparingly and they should be REALLY tough. They are the alien's version of special forces with all of the training, experience, and technology that entails.

What I think the game does NEED right now is three things:

2)-Morale should affect aliens (Even the OG had this... they shouldn't run at the first sign of gunfire but if they are losing they should start freaking out a little and not just stand there and mindlessly fight to the death... If I snipe an alien officer I want to see deleterious effect's on the alien's combat performance. It is both more realistic, and opens up additional tactics to be used on the battlescape)

3)-Different regions need to have different funding on the geoscape, balanced to where having a base almost anywhere on the planet is at least "viable" some regions will always be "more optimal" then others obviously. (SERIOUSLY THIS... why hasn't it been done yet? It is a HUGE part of geoscape balance)

4)-Mixed crew missions. I want to see the different aliens working together as a cohesive fighting unit. This was in x-com:Terror from the Deep, and it worked well there so it isn't entirely unprecedented. (These can appear whenever... early/lategame)

#1 would be a good idea and easy to implement. #2 Agree #3 Agree #4 Don't we already have this? I've seen Harridans and Sebillans together. I think others too. On the larger ships.

[legit1337]

#1 would be a good idea and easy to implement. #2 Agree #3 Agree #4 Don't we already have this? I've seen Harridans and Sebillans together. I think others too. On the larger ships.

I've never seen sebs and caesans fighting together... or androns with either of the previous two.

[Skitso]

Hmm...don't we have as many different types of aliens and weapons? I think we do. I'm all for more variation, but adding weapons and alien types is probably THE MOST time consuming and expensive thing GH can do. That means more art, more sounds, possibly more programming... I'm thinking it's a bit late for that. Maybe the aliens stats could be more variable though within reason.

I'm not saying GH should add any new enemy types per se, but rather try to differentiate them stats and ai wise more and give leader units more character to have them really stand out. We need something to middle/end game missions so they feel different than early game. At the moment, when the game introduces a new enemy type, it doesn't feel intresting or threatening and player doesnt need to adapt to anything because it's again pretty much a Caesan with different gfx, more hp and higher accuracy. More really unique behaviours are needed and tougher leader units too.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Skitso