Build V18 Geoscape Balance Discussion

[GizmoGomez]

@Trashman

Sounds interesting, but I like our Beloved Leader's idea better. It's less complicated, it makes sense, and it means I can keep my super-awesome team of alien killing madness in one base, and just have interceptor bases all over the world.

[Assoonasitis]

@Trashman

Sounds interesting, but I like our Beloved Leader's idea better. It's less complicated, it makes sense, and it means I can keep my super-awesome team of alien killing madness in one base, and just have interceptor bases all over the world.

Boo.

[erutan]

Escort fighters just have their current range. If you want to one dropship the world, be prepared to have it fly unescorted (or try and juggle an escort to meet it.

If Chris doesn't want to try and force the player to build anything but intercept and r&d bases, fine, but there should at least be an advantage for having multiple soldier bases. I suppose as is you have the advantage of redundancy. It'd be kind of weird if the only thing you shipped between bases were airplanes (set up a research base, scrap all the labs in your starting base and have it be dev).

[erutan]

Ok so I'm near end of November, and with just my starting laboratory (15 scientists) I've unlocked the plasma weapons. Perhaps I'm sort of gaming the research, when I'm in base sometimes I'll check and see how many scientists I can pull off and still keep a project on excellent then redistribute to research in parallel. I do see production times ramping up (I built a second workshop) but so far it looks like once buildings can be rotated (moar workshops) you'd pretty much just need that central base.

All you'd need is a second intercept base in central america, and perhaps one in southeast asia, and it's good to go (I know UFO attacks are going to be stepped up, as is I'm regretting that 1 million on my intercept base in central america that could have gone to weapons and armor). If you try to get a second base up early (I had a functional intercept by the end of october) you're really harmed by any loss of vehicles/aircraft.

While the balance of the early alphas was a lot worse, and the overaggressive fighters were a PITA, the geoscape now is way too tame. It's almost feeling like EU12 (which isn't the part of the game you want to emulate!!). There's no sense of urgency... no real "need" to expand besides production. It's basically just don't lose any fighters.

A note - can we get overdamage to destroy UFOs? Let's say I really don't want to board another (light)scout could I use overwhelming alenium missiles to just "destroy" it?

[Sathra]

Yeah, I think research times are currently too short. Even without maximising for efficiency you can get plasma weapons out before the end of the year.

And the waves do get larger. I intend to make another strike base simply so I don't miss out on any alloys.

[TrashMan]

@Trashman

Sounds interesting, but I like our Beloved Leader's idea better. It's less complicated, it makes sense, and it means I can keep my super-awesome team of alien killing madness in one base, and just have interceptor bases all over the world.

This is a huge flaaw. Not a plus.

A single base covering the needs of a whole planet is silly.

[Assoonasitis]

Oops, my two top dudes died. I guess the planet's boned.

[erutan]

If we're really really really that worried about people missing too many terror missions, have them ramp up later or give people a little more money. Simple. That moment where I had to split up my squad + realized I could cover most of the world was a big moment.

[Max_Caine]

Hmm.. once a UFO is shot down, hey, it's not a problem any more. Okay, other UFOs might come to rescue it or whatever, but UFOs are at their most dangerous when not shot down. If UFOs could generate events even when shot down (a specific brand of "UFO wrecked" events), then the urge to a) expand the number of investigative teams and b) investigate UFO wrecks either at day or at night would be higher.

Therefore, I suggest that UFO wrecks have a random chance to generate events. Or that UFO wrecks have a pregenerated series of events that culminate with the UFO and the UFO crew being recovered.

[GizmoGomez]

This is a huge flaaw. Not a plus.

A single base covering the needs of a whole planet is silly.

Well, think of it this way.

If you have missions going on all over the place simultaneously, then you're going to need more than one team, as you can't have the same team be in two places at once. Even if they could, they'd have to rearm, heal, and all that, so you kind of need multiple teams anyway. Since a base can only support so many troops, you'll eventually have to give other bases their own troops just for sheer lack of space.

I do see your point, though, and it is valid. What I was saying is that I can have a crack team that can respond anywhere in the world, not necessarily that all of my troops will be at the same base. Not all of my troops are super-awesome-alien-killing-madness grade, obviously. I'd keep that team for the really hard stuff, while training other troops as well that'd be relocated around the world to reduce strain on the teams and response time.

While the chinook being able to go around the world means that it can reach anywhere, it doesn't mean that it can reach there quickly, or during daylight for an easier time hunting aliens. It just is able to do the minimum necessary to reach the far off sites.

[Gauddlike]

I would also ramp the air superiority missions back up a little.

You would need to be more careful sending craft out on long range missions.

What would be useful would be a support option for fighter wings so you can assign them to follow a dropship and automatically engage anyone attacking it so you don't need to go the whole way on slow speeds to watch for attacks personally.

Something like setting the transport as a mobile waypoint for a patrol command.

The reason I mention this is because the current system of assigning a dropship and fighters to the same squadron doesn't work.

All aircraft return to base when the first fighter runs out of fuel.

[GizmoGomez]

I agree with that, if there were more air superiority UFOs out there, it'd be more advantageous to get to the site as quickly as possible, and thus a single base design wouldn't work. The mobile waypoint idea is brilliant, too. I heartily agree with that.

[crusherven]

I wouldn't want the quantity of UFOs to get increased too much. The game would get kinda tedious if I frequently had multiple missions at the same time.

[TrashMan]

The reason I proposed the "slower speed outside aircraft range" is precisely to encourage multiple bases.

With slower speed, catching UFO's, reaching terror missions or landed UFO's IN TIME becomes more difficult.

You are forced to make more bases not becaue you can't reach, but because you probably can't reach IN TIME.

[Gauddlike]

I wouldn't want the quantity of UFOs to get increased too much. The game would get kinda tedious if I frequently had multiple missions at the same time.

I prefer that over only having a single mission available at any given time.

At least that way you have to make a choice.

Do you prioritise which missions you take and maybe risk losing some reputation?

Maybe you splash out extra cash on a second team and try to recoup the costs by doing more missions?

Perhaps you just fly around like a lunatic trying to cover everything with a single team.

If the missions are always one or two at a time and you can get to every last one it is less interesting for me.

As long as the balance of rewards against penalties is sufficient that the player is not going to lose all funding just because they cannot possibly reach all of the sites the game throws at them.

*edit* My previous post only mentioned air superiority missions which don't leave a ground combat mission if you take them out anyway.

They are primarily to make the player wary about sending out unescorted craft.

[Assoonasitis]

Shameless self promotion inc.: Head on over here and test out my balance mod that I'm working on if you'd like, and then provide some feedback in that thread. I'd really appreciate you guys taking the time to do that for me, because I really want to help get this game as balanced as possible. Also: if anybody knows a bunch about changing the files and wants to help me out, that'd be swell too.

[crusherven]

I prefer that over only having a single mission available at any given time.

At least that way you have to make a choice.

Do you prioritise which missions you take and maybe risk losing some reputation?

Maybe you splash out extra cash on a second team and try to recoup the costs by doing more missions?

Perhaps you just fly around like a lunatic trying to cover everything with a single team.

So what, you're going to do 2-3 missions a day for how many months? It just doesn't sound fun.

[TrashMan]

WTF is it with these blanket rules?

ALWAYS only one mission.

ALLWAYS multiple ones, so you have to choose.

Why?

You already have chances and RNG as part of the game, there's no need for that sort of crap.

It would be nice if occasionally the aliens would coordinate mulltiple UFO landings in different places. So no matter how awesome your team is, a single base and team won't cut it.

[Assoonasitis]

I have here the only blanket rule that should be considered for this game: always fun.

[Gauddlike]

Odd I don't remember saying that you would always force multiple missions to be available.

I can't think of any reason to force multiple missions when the game randomly places them, in exactly the same way I can't see any reason to force a single mission when the game rng may have placed more.

The only blanket rule I see being made here is that a single team should not be able to cover everywhere.

That one is yours TrashMan

I also didn't say that you would be forced to do every last one of them one after another for months.

In fact it would likely not be possible to do them all if they decay quickly enough to make you prioritise.

You may decide to only do the missions inside interceptor range of your main base for cover, you might want to have multiple bases to spread the interceptor cover.

You may even decide that you really want to try and do every mission that appears in the USSR because you have poor relations and only keep up token support in the US where you are practically president.

Choice.

[TrashMan]

The only blanket rule I see being made here is that a single team should not be able to cover everywhere.

That one is yours TrashMan

And that is the only rule that is worth a damn

[Gauddlike]

I agree it is a logical one for my playstyle, not everyone agrees though.

Hopefully there is a way that will settle into the middle ground and mean it will be possible to play with a single team if you want to.

I like to vary my tactics/strategy and if multiple playstyles are possible then a game will last me far longer.

[TrashMan]

They don't have to agree. It is logical. Logic isn't subjective.

Aircraft have range.

Aircraft have speed.

Aircraft have to refuel.

Refueling takes time. - we know this because it takes time for our craft to refuel.

Therefore, any craft should be able to reach anywhere, as long as it has somewhere to land and refuel. And given that the nations support xenonauts, they should be able to use any airport in the world.

Come to think of it, I should revise my proposal. There is no need for half speed outside of range. BUT, when their tanks are dry, aircraft should land on the nearest refuel point and refuel. So they would basicly fly in hops.

Fly fly fly, land...wait an hour or two to refuel...fly fly fly... repeat.

It would still penalize you time-wise, and if alien behavior is balanced for them to loiter around less, it provides an even stronger incentive for multiple bases and teams.

Now, you can either build such refuel points manually, have many of them sprinkled around the globe (you can technicly use any city in the world as such a pont) or just abstract it away and have the craft land in the middle of nowhere.

[Sathra]

What about the advanced craft which are electric-powered? They are literally powered by the output of a nuclear reactor.

[TrashMan]

Power and propulsion are not the same mind you. Power by itself doesn't generate thrust.