Build V17.9 Balance Discussion

[StellarRat]

Oh, and I think I mentioned elsewhere, smoke grenades seem to be the bestest weapon ever at the moment. I don't even have to go into scouts anymore, just detonate a few smokes at the edge and wait.

Oh, not really balance related, but healing... I have seen quite a few times that my soldiers who are wounded but can go on missions can be healed up to full with a quick medkit burst. Did this one one of those one turn empty scout missions. Not sure why the troops couldn't avail themselves of that at the base if they aren't actually "damaged" or whatever you might call the heal-able grayed out portion of the health bar.

#1 - Are you saying you don't even have to throw the smoke grenades INTO the UFO? #2 - Seems like an exploit that should be eliminated.

[svidangel]

Correct, none of the explosions have limits. Fire a rocket launcher into the side of the building, do as much damage inside as outside while leaving the wall intact. I don't think this was the case in the original, but then smoke wasn't as OP there as it is now.

[Max_Caine]

Looking at the gas_gc.xml file, smoke grenade smoke does 30 stun damage. I'm guessing if it was dropped from 30 to say, 5, it would be a lot less likely to stun bad guys.

EDIT:

Incidently, the flashbang, desipite having a really high suppression value (120!) isn't much better than what it was when it was first introduced.. The reason it isn't much better is because of the way suppression works - suppression damage drops off really quickly once the weapon is used outside of operational range and does very little suppression damage to any target in the "outer" part of the suppression ring. I would suggest boosting the suppression radius from 3 to either 6 or 8. This creates an inner suppression radius (i.e. full effect) of 3-4 squares which allows for some small deviation when throwing a flashbang, without becoming excessive.

EDIT EDIT:

I woudl also suggest boosting the operation range of grenades skyward. The way damage and suppression are calculated for guns doesn't entirely fit with grenades, whose effect is calculated from point-of-impact, rather than from the shooter. Boosting the operational range of grenades is a simple way to fix that.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Max_Caine

[svidangel]

Come to think of it, would be nice if the stun damage showed up. Not sure if that is planned, or intentionally left out.

Oh, and back on the medkit thing, you are right, it's totally exploitable. I can down two scouts, take my soldiers to the first site, shoot them all up, play catch the hand grenade, etc, then redirect my craft to the second site.

At the second crash, all the bars are grey to the max, and I can heal them up to full.

Edited March 26, 2013 by svidangel

[svidangel]

Wait, grenades do less damage the longer your throw? Hell, that solves half of StellarRat's worries!

[Max_Caine]

Having spet some time fiddling with flashbang (deja vu), the most effective thing that can be done is to increase the operational range of the weapon. Suppression seems to drop off really quickly once out of operational range.

[crusherven]

They really *shouldn't* get weaker at extreme throwing range, though.

[StellarRat]

Wait, grenades do less damage the longer your throw? Hell, that solves half of StellarRat's worries!

Yeah, it does, but it makes absolutely no sense at all. If true, it's a bug as far as I'm concerned and it really needs to be repaired before beta otherwise all the weapon values balancing could end up wrong. Should be easy to fix. Max if you're right you should file a bug report, seriously. I doubt Chris wants it to work this way. The same is probably true of all explosive weapons, demo charges, rockets, etc... Edited March 26, 2013 by StellarRat

[Max_Caine]

Hang on a sec! The only thing I know that range definately does affect when it comes to grenades is suppression! I haven't a scooby* whether that applies to stun damage, normal damage, chemical damage....

*scooby doo - clue

[StellarRat]

Hang on a sec! The only thing I know that range definately does affect when it comes to grenades is suppression! I haven't a scooby* whether that applies to stun damage, normal damage, chemical damage....

*scooby doo - clue

OH SHOOT! I jumped to a conclusion based on the other comments! Maybe Chris can clarify this for us. In any case, it shouldn't affect suppression either. Edited March 26, 2013 by StellarRat

[Gauddlike]

You could have a quick play by reducing the grenades range to a low level and then throwing it at your troopers who are at a much greater distance.

If they manage to hit but no real damage is generated you know that range reduces explosive damage.

If it doesn't then Stellars concerns over grenade throw range have a new direction though as they would be the only weapon (except perhaps the rocket launcher) that have damage unaffected by range to target.

If it does then you have the problem that grenades are behaving unrealistically.

Balance is a headache eh Chris

[Sathra]

Been trying out the new build after my long enforced break (life interrupt). From what I've seen so far the balance seems pretty good. The aliens shooting from across the map through buildings is new (is it a bug?), and caused a massive change to how I played after the first terror mission. Which I had to play 30 times due to hidden movement freezes. Lots of refinement. No casualties by the end of that boot camp (Androns with only ballistics).

What to add...hmm...troops do seem to rank up really fast. They still feel vulnerable, but I had multiple colonels around the time I started using laser weapons. Including a sniper in Wolf with 100 TU. Might be something to look at, since by the time I could build 6 suits of Jackal, everyone could wear it without any real weight problems.

Shotguns are hard to use. When you can get them all set, they are amazing but getting to that is a bit difficult. Will have to see when combat shields are in, and the possible flashbang problem is fixed.

Currently I play with modified TFTD tactics. Scout ahead, spot alien, walk out of visual range, shoot it with everyone. This avoids the whole reaction fire and 'shots through buildings' problems, and has dropped casualties to about 1 every 8 missions before Jackal. Not sure if its quite how it should be played, but putting it out there for more info.

[thothkins]

I've found that in 19.1 the shotguns have been relegated to unused back up weapons by my breach guys. Simply not enough enclosed map opportunities to make decent use of them. Probably related to the minimal number of industrial maps I've had.

[crusherven]

I've actually been using the shotgun a lot more since they upped the damage. I'm pretty sure my assaultman has the highest kills (I only bring one). It's the best weapon I've found for checking corners, and even on the farm map with hedgerows there's plenty of those. I don't know if it's as effective on veteran, but it's a highly reliable killer at close range.

I agree that ranks are pretty out of control. Seven majors shouldn't comprise half my squad. If major is my highest rank, I should really only have one or maybe two. It's more than OK to limit promotions based on how many troops you have of each rank--it should ideally look a lot like a pyramid, with Cpl's and Sgt's being the most plentiful.

I'm also noticing a very strong tendency for the aliens to be far away from my craft. This takes all the tension out of the first turn, because I can very safely have everyone sprint away mostly without even thinking about aliens for a turn.

Am I the only one who would prefer medikits to heal twice as much for double the TU's? I'd rather not have to click quite so many times.

[Akrakorn]

Crush, if you right-click while holding the medikit you can change the amount of TUs you want to use. That way you only need to click once to fully heal a trooper.

[thothkins]

but it's a highly reliable killer at close range.

ah, my shotgun guys seem to be slightly dead before the missions get to close range. That would it.

[crusherven]

Smoke grenades and/or suppression helps a lot. Maybe too much... throwing smoke on an enemy and running up to them seems pretty safe. Even if you don't kill them, the enemy tends to retreat if you get close. That's a slight flaw in the AI, IMO. The aliens always save time for reaction fire, even when they would be better off blasting a nearby soldier and then running. I like that smoke grenades feel (and look!) useful, though.

Side note, I love the arctic map. Probably not the best map to test my all-shotgun team on, but I like it.

[thothkins]

I got shot to bits when I tired the smoke grenades on a landing ship. After it working well enough with a cruiser, I'm thinking it was perhaps due to a scout alerting them further in the map. The resulting barrage of fire simply passing through obstacles perhaps wasn't due to the aliens actually seeing much.

The toxin grenades have come in handy a few times too. Just missed two of my own troops with a fumble though. Whew!

[Assoonasitis]

Yo, I don't know much, but I know it's a bunch of horse hockey that aliens can just be shootin' me through they ships with closed doors an' all that.

Also, not a balance thing, but I like that Jonathan Frakes is on the Hidden Movement screen. Having Commander Riker looking over my squad is a real morale-booster.

[StellarRat]

So, I spent hours playing yesterday and I think I can make some general balancing comments now.

1. Planes are too expensive in relation to how much money you receive for capturing the "average" UFO at the start of the game. It's taken me over a month of light scout "captures" to lease a new Condor.

2. Jackel armor: WAY TOO EXPENSIVE for what you get. Six suits cost as much as a Condor and take as long to build as a MIG-32? No way. Price should be around $10K or less. Maybe the later armors should be $$, but Jackel is just outrageous.

3. Missions: Lt. Scouts, a bit too easy even with level 1 weapons and beginner troops. However, since we can't set the difficulty level of the game right now I might be happy with the difficulty turned up a notch. I recommend the very first light scout missions be really easy like two Caeseans with pistols, then after that give them three or four alien crews with rifles. This comment might be invalid when the AI is done too. We'll see.

4. Shotgun, vastly better with the new higher damage. Works like I think a shotgun should now i.e. realistic. Probably fires too fast and holds too much ammo, but those are "realism" issues that I can probably live with. Realism-wise shotgun shouldn't fire any faster than snapshot with assault rifle, shouldn't hold more than 8 rounds per clip, and reloading should take an entire turn (50 TUs).

5. Ammo: I played 10-15 recovery missions and have yet to have to reload a single weapon other than the rocket launcher. In theory this makes sense as the number of aliens is low and the type of fighting we are doing is quite deadly. More just a general comment than anything else. It's probably completely realistic.

6. Demo charges: Way too weak against structures. I haven't use them against aliens, but they are too weak in the role they are supposed to fill. It took two charges to open a single tile gap in a concrete wall and two charges to blow a hole in the wall of an office building. I recommend an increase in power to allow a single charge to open up at least a one tile hole in any normal structure. Right now the rocket launcher is at least a good at breaching, but this it not right.

7. Rocket launcher causes too much fire (specially if you compare it with a demo charge.) Right now even solid concrete starts on fire after rocket hit. I can see considerable amounts of smoke (kicked up dust, etc...), but the amount of fire is excessive. Probably should only have fire if something flammable is hit like a propane tank or chemical barrel. Maybe a SMALL chance of fire if wood crates, furniture, paper, or plastic pipes get hit too. Right now rocket launcher is almost like a dual blast and incendiary weapon.

8. I just have to say again, Gijs-Jan has done a fantastic job on the AI. I'm impressed and almost scared to see the final version in action. Three huzzahs for him!

Edited April 1, 2013 by StellarRat

[StellarRat]

Yo, I don't know much, but I know it's a bunch of horse hockey that aliens can just be shootin' me through they ships with closed doors an' all that.

Also, not a balance thing, but I like that Jonathan Frakes is on the Hidden Movement screen. Having Commander Riker looking over my squad is a real morale-booster.

From what I can tell they shoot through just about anything from time to time. I've had shots go through solid walls, UFO doors, etc... definitely a bug. There is also a bug with throwing grenades and charges over other objects.

[StellarRat]

ah, my shotgun guys seem to be slightly dead before the missions get to close range. That would it.

Sounds like you need to scout more carefully and play slower. I had the same problem until I settled down and started playing using "serious" military tactics. Your shotgun guys should not be "in front" until you are ready to enter a UFO or clear a building.

[thothkins]

Sounds like you need to scout more carefully and play slower.

I think it's more that they always get shot through the walls of the UFO, to be honest.

[Assoonasitis]

I think it's more that they always get shot through the walls of the UFO, to be honest.

Which, as has been noted, is total horse hockey.

[StellarRat]

I think it's more that they always get shot through the walls of the UFO, to be honest.

Oh, well, since I cleverly saw your posts BEFORE I started yesterday I was able to avoid some of the fire coming out the doors.