workshop & economics

[a_beorning]

IMHO, workers in a workshop unable to feed themselves are economical nonsense

Original XCom workers were allowed to build and sell items (medpacs for example) with profit - maybe too big profit.

Maybe good way is somewere in middle?

When workers are idle (do not build weapon/craft/etc) and there is some spare room in a workshop,

they can produce (and automatically sell) some abstract "general commodities"

Numbers for produsing cost, working time and sell price for general comodities must ensure workers salary plus workshop upkeep plus 10-20% profit (but no more - to avoid temptation of building pure-industrial bases )

[Gorlom]

Why must they be able to sell at profit? wouldn't simply mitigating but not eliminating costs make more sense? from a game play perspective.

[Max_Caine]

a_beorning, the engineers are paid a wage each month, and there's an operating cost for every workshop in use. No engineer goes hungry, if that's what you mean. If you mean "why can't I sell things for a clear profit", that is an issue that is occasionally raised, but the plain fact is, Chris wants sources of revenue to come from a) the countries that support Xenonauts, and b) from UFOs themselves. You need to make a more compelling case for setting up an industrial base.

[a_beorning]

Max_Caine

Situation: My engineers waiting for new aircraft to be invented or new hangar will be built.

They have nothing to do at this week.

They are able to build anything from pistol to jet interceptor

Why they cannot build some furniture/TVsets/Cessna's/you-name-it to make me some money in between?

It's not a way for player to make money (profit will be minimal with a glance to overheads), but a possibility to eliminate idle time losses.

[Arturius]

Whooaa, I do not think that making Pryus cars or anything similar fits in the mood of this game

From my playing experience in Alpha I would say that workshops are idle for only about first two weeks.

When you research the MiG, then grenades, and more stuff, they will be operating at full capacity.

(at least in my base: as I aim to have less personel that is occupied with something, rather than having many idle technicians/engineers)

Now, I do believe that items manufactured in workshops should be sold at tiny,tiny,tiny profit.

[Gorlom]

It's not a way for player to make money (profit will be minimal with a glance to overheads), but a possibility to eliminate idle time losses.

Why is that important?

What you effectively want to do is eliminate wages and workshop rent. I think the game would be poorer for that.

[a_beorning]

Arturius

Totally agree about Pryus - it's not only out-of-mood but completly anachronical

So - abstract "commodities for market"

Tiny profit - just what I suggest.

Sell price = (buildCost + (numberOfTechnicans*completionTimeInMonths)*(MonthlySalaryOfTechnican) ) * (1+profitCoefficient)

For normal game items, profitCoefficient = 0 ... 0.05 - there are no big market for anti-ufo planes

For commodities, profitCoefficient= ~0.2 (maybe depend on difficulty level)

[Ol' Stinky]

Why is that important?

What you effectively want to do is eliminate wages and workshop rent. I think the game would be poorer for that.

I think he just wants to mitigate technician costs in the early part of the game when production's not constant. I don't think he's advocating OG X-Com laser cannon farming; the player wouldn't turn a profit by "building wealth" (like the ability in Civ IV), just effectively reduce the technicians' wages during downtime. That means it's a choice ("do I need help to pay the bills this month?") rather than the obvious way to play ("why wouldn't I set up a laser cannon farm so I don't have to worry about funding?").

I do agree that you shouldn't be turning a profit off of techs, though. Hiring too many techs should hurt your economy.

[a_beorning]

Gorlom

Wages and workshop rent will NOT be eliminated.

When my technicans build MiGs or lasguns, wages and rent are spending normally.

What I (xenonauts boss) get for my money? I get MiGs and lasguns.

When they do not build MiGs or lasguns (already enough lasguns or no place for more MiGs) they still spending wages and rent.

What I (xenonauts boss) get for my money when technicans are idle? Nothing, nihil, null.

I want my money back - isn't it natural?

And boss who have normal employees and normal facility always can get at least zero-profit - or he is not a good boss

Why game would be poorer?

Did a possibility to make and sell medpacs made old good original X-Com any poorer?

[a_beorning]

Ol' Stinky

You got it!

I want to compensate only workshop and technicans idleness - not total base maintenance!

A base filled with only workshops and living quarterts must be profitless (and by the way defenseless)

[Gorlom]

Gorlom

Wages and workshop rent will NOT be eliminated.

When my technicans build MiGs or lasguns, wages and rent are spending normally.

What I (xenonauts boss) get for my money? I get MiGs and lasguns.

You say one thing, but I hear something completely different, that you want to do away with wages and rent and instate a production cost for usable equipment. In your example there is no wage or rent but a cost for the items you need. You are effectively buying the items (with a wierd delivery schedule) instead of producing them.

When they do not build MiGs or lasguns (already enough lasguns or no place for more MiGs) they still spending wages and rent.

What I (xenonauts boss) get for my money when technicans are idle? Nothing, nihil, null.

I want my money back - isn't it natural?

Maybe but how does it impact the fun of playing? You are effectively removing an aspect of management in the game. Thereby reducing the fun for the players that enjoy that kind of thing.

And boss who have normal employees and normal facility always can get at least zero-profit - or he is not a good boss

In a capitalistic world where the goal is profit yes. You aren't playing SimFactory though. You are playing "Xenonauts: a strategic planetary defense simulator" Profit or money back is not even secondary on the list of priorities.

Why game would be poorer?

Did a possibility to make and sell medpacs made old good original X-Com any poorer?

Yes, in my opinion it did. And from your explanation of your suggestion I get the impression you want to take it even further by automating the production of commercial goods whenever the player controled production is idle?

Circumventing a game mechanic you have designed by another mechanic is just plain weird.

I'm sure you can mod in something that will be satisfactory to you in the end. But I do not think such a feature fits into any modern game. At least back in 94 it was somewhat of a secret, today it will not be a secret for long. It will just be an odd design choice that you could just as well use to rationale away the money resource all together.

We could have employes be rewards from missions rather than hired (Just like in EU"012), productions costs alien tech/material and building bases costs political power.

See? no need for money anywhere.

Ol' Stinky

You got it!

I want to compensate only workshop and technicans idleness - not total base maintenance!

Then why do you want them to make a profit?

Edited February 20, 2013 by Gorlom

[thothkins]

I do think there's a significant lull at the beginning of the game in the workshop. There should be something for them to manufacture. It's much the same as having starting research. It gets the player used to that part of the game and to be comfortable with it as early as possible.

It's something that has struck me in every build. With item farming effectively removed, and MIG research taking some time to complete, it seems neglected at present?

EU1994 had a few items to start with such as Medikits, but it's odd why you wouldn't just have them available. There's no need to manufacture them really. It would have to be something available technically at the time, so no research, be useful, but not to be farmed for profit.

jury rigged motion scanners? Cost more to make than their available component parts and not of much use beyond the Xeno-hunting business. Just ask the folks on the Nostromo, also from 1979.

Other ideas would be that you buy a basic interceptor and the engineers are the ones who modify it to be able to take out a UFO? Might be awkward if you lose a few interceptors and have to wait too long for the engineers to modify new ones.

Whooaa, I do not think that making...cars or anything similar fits in the mood of this game

Unless they are Avrocars of course

[Hansmorg]

I can think of a simple solution, no more unlimited ballistics. That would mean that your workshop would need to produce ammo and guns the first couple of weeks, until you start with the pew pew weapons.

The issue with that though is that it makes little sense lore-wise as you are supported by the entire world, and one would imagine they could spare you a handful of guns and ammunition, to fight off the alien menace. It's just an idea though, you did need to buy ammo for the starting weapon(s) in the original x-com after all.

[thothkins]

yeah, the idea that the funding nations would charge you for ammo would be odd was the idea there, I'm sure. Having said that though if the whole world was supporting you then they'd give you more than 10 scientists, engineers, a couple of planes and a single base of operations

[a_beorning]

You say one thing, but I hear something completely different

If you read in my words something I did not write, why do you bothering to read? You can just imagine imaginary posts from imaginary me

In your example there is no wage or rent but a cost for the items you need.

Where did you read it?!

Building normal things (guns, planes etc) in my example has no difference from how it is now.

Building cost + technican's time (means salary)

You aren't playing SimFactory though. You are playing "Xenonauts: a strategic planetary defense simulator" Profit or money back is not even secondary on the list of priorities.

What do you suggest? Eliminate money from game at all?

Profit is not a priority for gamer. But profit is a tool for (imaginary) Xenonauts director. A tool allowing him to arm his soldiers.

$100k obtained now means one interceptor more next month.

I understand your fear of "money farming cheat". I had already write how to avoid it.

Then why do you want them to make a profit?

Because I had seen socialism. From inside

"Components supply is delayed? Factory is stopped, workers playing chess, but still get paid".

Such methods bring my country to bankrupcy and defeat in a Cold War.

I do not want such defeat for humanity - even in a game.

[erutan]

I think one way around this is to basically require everything that makes a profit to contain a component you get from a UFO like alien alloys, elenium, etc (and have things like MiGs etc be non cost effective due to profit vs time to build). This way you can't endlessly spam items due to the fact you will a) run out of resources b) harm yourself down the road as you won't have reserves when you hit the next tier.

It would add another layer if balanced correctly (short term gain at the cost of long term efficiency), this is something EU12 did to a certain extent and I think the basic idea could work well. Someone that just sold their resources to expand bases could find themselves in a death spiral of not being able to keep up tech tier wise with increasing aliens, but could make a little money in a pinch.

Another option might be those "yo this region wants 10 laser rifles" for cash/rep but a huge loss of resources that EU12 had.

[Gorlom]

If you read in my words something I did not write, why do you bothering to read? You can just imagine imaginary posts from imaginary me

You took me to literally. What I meant was that I saw the effects of your suggestion to be something other than you see.

Where did you read it?!

Building normal things (guns, planes etc) in my example has no difference from how it is now.

Building cost + technican's time (means salary)

Same thing. They (your explanation and mine) are interchangeable, the differences are only semantics.

What do you suggest? Eliminate money from game at all?

No but you might as well if we go by your suggestion. Money has no weight if it doesn't need to be managed. Didn't I respond talking about how produce for profit could motivate doing away money as a resource? It is my opinion that YOUR suggestion leads to that, not mine.

Profit is not a priority for gamer. But profit is a tool for (imaginary) Xenonauts director. A tool allowing him to arm his soldiers.

$100k obtained now means one interceptor more next month.

You are making assumptions about the balance (that has yet to be done) in the game. You are making assumptions that if you allow for profit there will not be cutbacks elsewhere making that profit not be any real profit and only bring you back to the original level you would have been at without the profits in the first place.

I understand your fear of "money farming cheat". I had already write how to avoid it.

You never did. As long as you talk about profit you never ever do.

Because I had seen socialism. From inside

"Components supply is delayed? Factory is stopped, workers playing chess, but still get paid".

Such methods bring my country to bankrupcy and defeat in a Cold War.

I do not want such defeat for humanity - even in a game.

First of all it your emotions regarding socialism/communism should not dictate gameplay mechanics design.

Secondly if you feel so strongly about it just fire the engineers when you aren't using them. Capitalism ho!

Thirdly why is the profit part necessary to combat socialism? I asked you why mitigation wasn't enough and I have never gotten an answer.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Gorlom

[Chris]

In the next build the Invasion / Mig research should happen in about three days, so those guys should be busy building a MiG within 72 hours of the game starting. Hopefully it won't be such as issue then.

[GizmoGomez]

So, let me get this straight, and correct me if I'm wrong.

Gorlom, you'd rather there be a way to cover simply the base wages and upkeep of the workshop, with no extra profits made.

a_beorning, you'd rather there be a way to make a small profit on specific items, with limitations in place to avoid the laser cannon farming that UFO:EU had.

Well, as far as I've seen, Chris wants income to come from selling UFO junk and from the funding nations.

Improving relations by higher performance in the field gets you more money from the nations, so the only way I can see (save becoming better at killing aliens and saving civvies) to increase profits (without deviating from Chris's system) is by improving the value of the UFO components you salvage.

Why not have there be selling UFO components for a profit (as Chris already has), but if you spend engineer man-hours to "improve" the components, you can sell them for more?

Like, after researching an item, say a Power Source, you can research "Power Source Conversion" (or whatever) which unlocks the "Converted Power Source" for the engineers. This would take time and consume a Power Source, but would improve the value of the base Power Source, by converting it for human (non Xenonaut) use (so it can connect to human devices/power grids, or something along those lines.)

It'd be worth more because anyone buying the regular Power Source would have to research it and convert it themselves, so you're simply doing some of their work for them, and thus you get paid more.

Example values (making numbers up here)

Power source - $1000

Add in X engineer man-hours:

Converted Power Source - $1000 + some additional profit.

This could be done with power sources, nav systems, and the like (I don't actually know what all the UFOs give you, as I've not progressed very far in game.) There shouldn't be a way to improve on elerium, er, alenium, because that doesn't make any sense. Alien Alloys could make sense, though, if you made them into prefab shapes from their base form, whatever it is (probably kind of inconsistent and unusable, as they're technically wreckage.)

Balancing the man hours needed and the raise in value would happen in the beta. It'd give your engineers something to do, spending their salary toward increasing profits of selling UFO parts, instead of paying them to sit and play chess, or to make mundane Cessnas or televisions or what have you.

This is almost self balancing, in that you have to do well in actual missions to get UFO components, so there's no way for you to not do missions and just farm money.

TL;DR

Why not give (otherwise unoccupied) engineers jobs improving UFO components that would increase their value somewhat, but not too significantly?

[Gorlom]

Gorlom, you'd rather there be a way to cover simply the base wages and upkeep of the workshop, with no extra profits made.

Preferable to profit. But rather not have either, I don't want it to cover the costs.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Gorlom

[erutan]

@gizmo that seems effectively the same as producing items that require components in terms of gameplay. It's not a bad idea, but it seems a little overcomplicated.

If you can make $1k per alien alloy, but it takes 1 day of engineering, $5k in costs, and 4 alloys to make a laser pistol that sells for, say, $10-11k then you have the choice of making more of a profit off of UFO salvage while using engineer hours, but it's not zomg game breaking ala 150 engineers just spamming out medikets in XCOM. Eventually you'll run out of alloys (and be screwed for supplying your troops/planes) and have a bunch of engineers on the payroll eating money, but short term you can get a little more cash for a time investment vs just selling parts. (all numbers are fake just for conversation).

The problem with medikits in XCOM was that they required no scarce materials and sold for nearly double what it cost to make, so there was no downside to making them. If you make a smaller % off of manufactured items + they cost alenium/alloys that you desperately need for your own troops then I see that as a valid strategic choice.

Even if you "cover costs" for a while - guess what, if you keep it up you're out of your reserves for alloys/alenium + you can't make any more. If resources are as tight as they are in EU12 this will be a legitimate concern.

[a_beorning]

Gorlom

Maybe I was too emotional, sorry.

When I said about profit it was not "profit from a whole game point of view". It is a profit from base commander point of view.

(Yes, I know there is no such unit "base commander" in terms of game mechanics. It's imaginary person in imaginary world where events of game take place)

Game is not a SimFactory and player is not a manager - but base commander is!

What order will give base commander to workshop when it's impossible to make some more weapon?

"Do something usefull and sell it, so your wages will not be spent in vain. Make some profit!"

It's a question of inner logic of events.

From our (gamers, developers) point of view, for good game balance, this profit must be small enough - sell price for commodities produced in a week will be just several percent more then worker's wages for the same week.

It is not enough to mantain a whole base (so there will be no "Money Farms").

It's a method for workshop not to lose money when idle.

For workshop, such operation is "making profit".

For base and for Xenonauts organisation as a whole, its just mitigation of expences.

Secondly if you feel so strongly about it just fire the engineers when you aren't using them.

And how much will it cost?

With current game mechanics I will spend at least twice in comparison with idle workers, and will have to wait 3 days before I get them back.

[erutan]

Gorlom

From our (gamers, developers) point of view, for good game balance, this profit must be small enough - sell price for commodities produced in a week will be just several percent more then worker's wages for the same week.

The problem with this is that it creates an incentive to have infinite engineers - if you have something you need to produce, then it is faster, if not then you still make more money compared to having less engineers. The only way around this is:

a) make it so you recoup a portion of costs

b) make it so you are dependent on scarce resources from UFOs so there is a limit to manufactured goods / opportunity cost

those are not mutually exclusive.

IRL funding councils would be sending all their scientists and engineers for free to help ramp up production so advanced weaponry could be shared with normal armies, and things like plasma weapons would have an incredibly insane markup. The only way around this is scarcity of base materials.

[a_beorning]

GizmoGomez, Erutan

Selling UFO junk - raw junk or "upgraded" - is OK, but some minor trouble.

This income is irregular and not player-dependent.

For example, I had two weeks with alien fighters only. I shot them, they were destroyed - not crashed.

No crash sites, no junk recovery, no income.

End of month - nations are ready to pay more, but before they pay I cannot pay wages and maintenance. Game over.

Chris

Maybe on end-of-month calculation deduce maintenance cost AFTER income from nations, not before?

[erutan]

@a I'm pretty sure EOM income is a lingering bug.

imho if you can just stack engineers and not have to worry about income then a major part of the game is broken. that element of randomness is part of what makes this type of game memorable/interesting/frustrating/enjoyable.