Difficulty Curve Smoothing

[Chris]

I've been playing a lot of the new XCOM and one of the things I liked about it was the way that it did smooth the difficulty curve a little - such as you getting high-level soldiers as mission rewards and later in the game they joined as Squaddies instead of Rookies etc.

I think Xenonauts could benefit from some gentle smoothing of the difficulty curve in places to make it a bit less unforgiving. I was wondering if people had thoughts on these two ideas:

1) The quality (stat point average / rank) of the soldiers available for recruitment in the pool should gradually increase as the game goes on, up to a cap. This will cushion the blow of losing soldiers a little, though new soldiers should always be worse than what you already have. Perhaps the new soldiers would max out at Sergeant at the end of the game.

2) There's an issue with aircraft ranges and game balance at the moment. I want to encourage players to build multiple bases in the game, so the range of interceptors and radars can't be that large at the start of the game or there's no need for them. However, this leaves a situation where at the start of the game the player quite often is not able to intercept many UFOs because they don't enter their airspace. Which means very few crash site missions for people to play.

There's several ways around this - making early UFOs only spawn near the base is one thing we can do, but I don't like that level of "cheating". I like the events popping up across the world, showing you that there's a world outside your radar range that the aliens are attacking.

I propose that each UFO has a % value set for it, which is the % chance that it will generate a crash site instead of escaping to space if it successfully completes its mission - the logic being that that local air forces managed to shoot down the UFO. This would initially be set high, but would rapidly tail off and would be non-existent by the mid-game.

This would nevertheless give the player some breathing room. There'll always be a supply of crash sites early game (and thus stuff to research), even if the player is unlucky with their interceptors.

The main change here would be that the dropship will have to have a much longer range in order to be able to deal with the crash sites, but I guess I could live with that. I did want other bases to have their own troops etc, but I'm not sure it's going to be possible to force that without gimping other aspects of the game (not being able to reach terror sites etc as in the current builds) at the same time.

[HWP]

1) The quality (stat point average / rank) of the soldiers available for recruitment in the pool should gradually increase as the game goes on, up to a cap. This will cushion the blow of losing soldiers a little, though new soldiers should always be worse than what you already have. Perhaps the new soldiers would max out at Sergeant at the end of the game.

It could work, although it is a little strange.

I remember training being proposed. Here's an option: you can build a Virtual Reality training facility on your base. A little like psionic training in original XCOM. It's still advanced enough to plausibly require alien-based research.

That facility would never be able to improve soldiers' stats past the stats of their instructors (which are your combat-trained soldiers) minus a little. That explains how your recruits keep up with the game. Instructor assignment can be explicit (select one) or implied (based on the average stats of your top few soldiers).

They would have to take time training, that's a price you pay for taking losses, you still have to feel them as you can't get a good new soldier for some time. For an even harsher price you might have the instructor taken out of combat roster for the duration of their training.

Such a scheme also achieves a secondary goal of allowing you to up-train a backup team you kept from the early game, instead of necessitating firing them and hiring all-new troops.

Explicit instructor choice is more interesting, I think, it helps you shape your soldiers' stats a little, and you can recover from total squad loss with just one instructor left home. Still a precaution you have to take.

It's best if the training facility can only cover some % of the delta between recruit's stat and instructor's stat, so their initial stats still matter. It can be fixed, like 75% for a 1-month program, or it can be exponential, say 30% per week, so you can do a quick one-week program or you can run them for 4 weeks for 76% of the total difference covered.

I propose that each UFO has a % value set for it, which is the % chance that it will generate a crash site instead of escaping to space if it successfully completes its mission - the logic being that that local air forces managed to shoot down the UFO. This would initially be set high, but would rapidly tail off and would be non-existent by the mid-game.

That's very logical and highly realistic. It's how you would work in reality, at first the Xenonauts don't have a lot of advanced tech, regular air forces are bigger, they'd shoot the UFOs down and call you. It also allows the game to be much harsher in regards to player's aircraft, e.g. have them more expensive, because now losing them isn't the end of the world yet.

Best to keep everything about that feature customizable just in case, some will want to mod it out. But it's a feature that can add to both immersion and variety. I'm all for it.

The main change here would be that the dropship will have to have a much longer range in order to be able to deal with the crash sites, but I guess I could live with that.

Since your dropship uses regular jet fuel, it could refuel as it goes across the world.

A simple option to simulate that but keep the need for multiple bases would be significantly reducing the speed of your aircraft if they exceed their normal range - since they have to land or meet with a tanker for in-air refuel, that takes time.

Edited October 16, 2012 by HWP

[Fridge]

I propose that each UFO has a % value set for it, which is the % chance that it will generate a crash site instead of escaping to space if it successfully completes its mission - the logic being that that local air forces managed to shoot down the UFO. This would initially be set high, but would rapidly tail off and would be non-existent by the mid-game.

I like that idea, but you can also tweak that a bit by adding some sort of "terror" missions like the XCOM:EU Game has right now. make those UFOs land and spread Terror in cities /countries outside of your radar range, making the local authorities call for help which you have to clean up then.

[Skvid]

Crashsites could attract additional alien activity in that sector, so if you (or earths standart military forces as suggested) managed to shoot down 1 ufo there would be a chance that another one could show up to investigate.

This feature should be carefully tweaked as it can enable players "farm" ufos in one area, so the chances of additional ufo's should be set into reasonable values.

Another idea id really like to see incorporated in some way is ufo's interacting with eachother on geoscape. For example ufos could "delete" crashsite missions by getting there before the player and destroying all the evidence/rescuing surviving aliens or whatever.

So if combined with my previous idea this would force players into a lot of difficult scenarious and would pose some interesting managment problems.

[Gorlom]

1) The quality (stat point average / rank) of the soldiers available for recruitment in the pool should gradually increase as the game goes on, up to a cap. This will cushion the blow of losing soldiers a little, though new soldiers should always be worse than what you already have. Perhaps the new soldiers would max out at Sergeant at the end of the game.

I'm I misremembering or hasn't this been suggested and turned down by you already Chris?

I propose that each UFO has a % value set for it, which is the % chance that it will generate a crash site instead of escaping to space if it successfully completes its mission - the logic being that that local air forces managed to shoot down the UFO. This would initially be set high, but would rapidly tail off and would be non-existent by the mid-game.

an interesting solution. But that would pose the same problem as current terror missions, no? How would you reach these crashsites around the world if your range doesn't reach that far?

This would nevertheless give the player some breathing room. There'll always be a supply of crash sites early game (and thus stuff to research), even if the player is unlucky with their interceptors.

The main change here would be that the dropship will have to have a much longer range in order to be able to deal with the crash sites, but I guess I could live with that. I did want other bases to have their own troops etc, but I'm not sure it's going to be possible to force that without gimping other aspects of the game (not being able to reach terror sites etc as in the current builds) at the same time.

Oh right, you already thought of the transport range problem...

But won't this leave the transport unprotected? It would be kind of annoying if new UFOs appeared and targeted your transport on its way to a long distance crash site.

I like that idea, but you can also tweak that a bit by adding some sort of "terror" missions like the XCOM:EU Game has right now. make those UFOs land and spread Terror in cities /countries outside of your radar range, making the local authorities call for help which you have to clean up then.

Terror missions were already in UFO:EU (original X-com, not the remake) and has been in Xenonauts for a while. Have you missed that or are you talking bout some added difference from the already existing ones? Edited October 16, 2012 by Gorlom

[Betuor]

I don't think that dropships need bigger range. It feels more realistic this way. I also, myself, send at least one fighter to escort it to the crashsite so if I couldn't do that, I wouldn't ever try. Also, for the local forces crashsite, I think there should be heavy casualties and decrease your funding.

I do like the idea of upgraded starting soldiers. I think that is very logical.

[Jean-Luc]

Chris, please see point #1 in this thread. It's about making new bases cheaper and more available for specialized purposes but with certain limitations. It might make missions sites more reachable without having to increase Chinook range.

The main change here would be that the dropship will have to have a much longer range in order to be able to deal with the crash sites, but I guess I could live with that. I did want other bases to have their own troops etc, but I'm not sure it's going to be possible to force that without gimping other aspects of the game (not being able to reach terror sites etc as in the current builds) at the same time.

So the game would be balanced around only needing a single troop/dropship base? Not all terror missions need to be reachable and players should also strive to intercept terror ships in the air and prevent them from ever landing. I mean, how did X-Com handle all this?

[ElTee]

Regarding 1, if you do that, you should make it so "Sergeants" (assuming that's the end-game starting rank) can advance 1 rank through training. This way, the training mechanic doesn't completely disappear past a few months. I like HWPs' idea, but not the idea of it taking space. Especially when basic training already exists. Like I said, bases have a finite number of space and I never felt like I had more than enough.

2 sounds iffy and doesn't make sense from an in-setting perspective. Space for bases is still finite. If you want to encourage multiple bases, make them cheaper to construct and have the first few constructions be X% cheaper. You could also limit the discount to certain constructions, like Living Quarters, Hanger and Storage Space.

I'd rather you just add allied aircraft over a static % chance though.

1. You can, in the short-term, induct help from a countrys' airforce. Once you click Intercept, the option will appear if you have at least one of your own fighters. This should cost enough money that in the long-term, you're better off having your own equivalent fighter.

1A. Yes, you can induct dropships. The dropship will fly to your base, and then you assign your soldiers and fly off to the crash site. Again, this shouldn't be expensive but not something you"ll want to rely on. This would solve the "can't reach the crashsite" problem without giving them global range.

2. Competition. Can't down it/intercept it fast enough? The region downs it and you get no funding for it. This will hurt your relations with them, probably. The small benefit is that it won't add to the alien ticker, and the UFO won't be back.

2A. They"ll progressively get more advanced, just like how local allied soldiers will eventually get laser weapons. Sure they"ll start less advanced and always be behind the Xenonauts, but the chance of them being able to down it before you should still be possible if you slack off. IOW, they shouldn't be so behind of the curve that they can't attack UFOs.

They're A. A source you can rent aircraft B. Competition while also providing some small relief, since downed UFOs can't return to orbit and advance the ticker.

Edited October 16, 2012 by ElTee

[StellarRat]

My suggestion and opinions: I don't like the idea of soldiers being more "mature" as recruits as the game advances. They will already have much better weapons and other equipment (hopefully) as raw recruits than the senior soldiers did. That is a balancing factor on it's own. One thing you could do is give more experience points for killing tougher aliens. That way the new recruits would advance faster as the game progresses as the aliens will be tougher. You could also use some type of bell curve for advancement, you get more points when you are raw and less when you're an old hand.

As for the UFOs landing anywhere in world, etc... I do like the idea of native air forces shooting them down. My suggestion is to simply give an air force a certain percentage chance to shoot down each type of UFO both before and after a mission. I see no reason why they couldn't shoot a UFO on it's way in or out. Light scouts would "meat on table" while cruisers would nearly impossible for national air force to bring down. That way as the game progresses to larger alien ships the national air forces would become less and less useful. There should aways be a chance for "miracle" shoot down though (1%?) That would add some variation to the game.

I really think you ought to consider some form of jet cargo transport to allow the Xenonauts to reach places that are out of range of the Chinook. It should probably cost some money and potentially be risky just like transporting aircraft between bases. Extending range of the Chinook itself is very unrealistic and even if it had unlimited fuel it's simply too slow to reach many places. A nonstop trip of 10,000 miles would take it about three days!

Perhaps you could also consider making a cheap, radar and fuel depot construct that the Xenonaut air transport can use as a stop over on the way to distant landing sites and to improve coverage. It would basically be cheap one tile base that provides nothing other than radar and fuel (maybe a missile battery?) and could never be expanded, but could removed or replaced (in case you want to build a "real" base there) or it could destroyed by alien attack.

If you don't allow some type of global transport at the start of the game, I don't think that the Xenonauts should be heavily penalized for not going to site that they simply can't reach. Even politicians are occasionally smart enough to realize some things are impossible.

Edited October 16, 2012 by StellarRat

[ElTee]

Mhm, that's a good point. Personally, I don't like the idea of having a bunch of Sergeants being my new line of rookies anyway.

Personally, I don't like the idea of mechanics disappearing. Which would be the case if you increased the starting rank as is and StellarRats' suggestion on national airforces.

I like the idea of countries' airforces gradually improving. Not fast enough they can be on level with you, but not slow enough they essentially don't matter. This would also tie in with my suggestion of being able to induct interceptors/dropships for when you lose an aircraft and there's a UFO/crashsite around.

[Jean-Luc]

Instead of rookies ranking up across the board just throw in 1 or 2 corporals/sergeants into every soldier selection pool later in the game. Eliminating rookies completely would feel wrong somehow.

[Gorlom]

2. Competition. Can't down it/intercept it fast enough? The region downs it and you get no funding for it. This will hurt your relations with them, probably. The small benefit is that it won't add to the alien ticker, and the UFO won't be back.

This is a non issue since the suggestion was to have them spawn as a crash site instead of escaping to space when they would normally have escaped.

They're A. A source you can rent aircraft B. Competition while also providing some small relief, since downed UFOs can't return to orbit and advance the ticker.

They don't advance the ticker when returning to space. they advance it when they complete the mission which they do before getting shot down by local forces.

[ElTee]

This is a non issue since the suggestion was to have them spawn as a crash site instead of escaping to space when they would normally have escaped.

I"ll answer by quoting my own post.

I'd rather you just add allied aircraft over a static % chance though.

The entire premise of my idea was that there isn't a mere static chance of crash sites appearing and instead adding AI for NPC human aircraft.

They don't advance the ticker when returning to space. they advance it when they complete the mission which they do before getting shot down by local forces.

Huh. Didn't know that. Lemme fix that:

B. Competition while also providing some small relief, since downed UFOs can't start a research or terror mission.

[Gorlom]

My bad I missed that it was part of explaining a suggestion the first time I read that.

Can't say I find that competition part particularly interesting though.

(PS: technically the chance wouldn't be static since it is suppose to decrease over time. but this is just nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking )

Edited October 16, 2012 by Gorlom

[GoodGuyEddy]

Wait didnt Chris propose to have the two week boot camp to make rookies into competent(but not badass) soldiers a while back?

[HWP]

I like HWPs' idea, but not the idea of it taking space. Especially when basic training already exists. Like I said, bases have a finite number of space and I never felt like I had more than enough.

Well, taking space isn't really necessary, thinking of it. But how do you and other people feel about the principle - assigning experienced soldiers to teach a fraction of their acquired skills to trainees?

It can also help one bring up the stats of soldiers that are used in combat, but don't get to pass as many checks or kill as many aliens as others.

Edited October 16, 2012 by HWP

[GoodGuyEddy]

Oh and maybe give people multtiple bases at the start?

The only way a player would build multiple bases is:

1) You have so many researchable buildings that a single base would never be capable of housing them all.

Or

2) Let the players be swiming in money so that more bases become affordable.

Unless those two points dont sit well with you, then maybe give them about 3 bases to place at the start? That's definetly reinforce the "you are truly mankinds last stand" feeling. And that in conjunction with the event system and the previously proposed "airforce shooting down small ufos" idea, might really cement the feel that there is a world out there, and things now got real.

[StellarRat]

Wait didnt Chris propose to have the two week boot camp to make rookies into competent(but not badass) soldiers a while back?

Well, we had the training option, but then it was removed as useless. Personally, I think the current experience system is OK, but if it was to be tweaked for balance I made my suggestions in an early post here.

[StellarRat]

Oh and maybe give people multtiple bases at the start?

The only way a player would build multiple bases is:

1) You have so many researchable buildings that a single base would never be capable of housing them all.

Or

2) Let the players be swiming in money so that more bases become affordable.

Unless those two points dont sit well with you, then maybe give them about 3 bases to place at the start? That's definetly reinforce the "you are truly mankinds last stand" feeling. And that in conjunction with the event system and the previously proposed "airforce shooting down small ufos" idea, might really cement the feel that there is a world out there, and things now got real.

That's why I suggested a cheap radar and re-fueling station as a cheap alternative base. In the old XCom I could get by pretty easily with 5 bases. One held soldiers, research and jets (North Africa). One held jets and soldiers (North America.) The others were just airbases with radar and a two or three jets (South America, Asia, South Africa. That was pretty much all you needed to cover the entire globe and would buy you enough time to win.

[Voidfoam]

Hmm, i have nothing to add when regarding the Aircraft issue. I think its fine the way it is now, expect Chinook range-

On 1) i have a completely new(i think) idea. Maybe not highly realistic but more of a representation of realistic.

Mostly because i strongly dislike going into combat with a squad of say only colonels. The more chefs ...well you know.

In X-com you could attain only a certain number of officers depending on amount of soldiers. This is good.

Generally it took into late game to rank up soldiers.

Lets give the rookies passive bonuses to their stats from having high ranking officers on the mission. If the officer dies. Well the bonuses goes with him, though luck for the player and the rookies. This makes officers a valuable asset and something to protect, and would automatically improve the late game rookies to a fighting force to reckon with. In war snipers targets the patch on your collar for a reason, its not a grudge thing

The bonuses wont stack, if you have a captain, as the highest ranking one. Then he sets the standard. Not the two sergeants in the group. If the captain goes. Sergeants stats boost the rookies.

The bonuses diminishes when/if the rookie gains stats similarly to the officer himself. Lets say a rookie then becomes just as good or better under a captain or colonel. Well fine. When beloved captain Gareths face gets burnt into a mess of charred flesh and bones from that sneaky alien sniper, fear not for your future. There is now ample amounts of competent rookies to draft into officers. Loose them all late game! Well lets just say you are in for a rough ride.

You could argue that it is not realistic to have someone shoot better because of a present high ranking officer. But this could of course represent being led by a good leader. Anybody who has fought in the army or any other organisation knows the difference in a groups performance from this.

Cheers!

Ps. This would comfortably remove the need for say the training idea. Since of course these officers and veterans teach the new guys. although i would strongly prefer the training idea, before the mass of late game sergeants!

Edited October 16, 2012 by Voidfoam

[thothkins]

1) I'm not a fan of this one at all, as I feel it minimises the effort you've put into advancing the soldiers you started with. If rank progression is stat based, then this is also mocking the effort you've put in. Having a ranking cap on them though is also forced.

2) As the back story suggests that Xenonauts are the only one to bring down a UFO, having local forces do it all of a sudden seems odd. If I were POTUS, why would I be funding Xenonauts, if my own airforce can now do the job? I'd only have local forces involved in such things if there was a game mechanism in which to release the R&D to them for extra funding or some knowledge of their air capability improvements.

Increasing Chinook ranges (again) reduces impact of later craft & reduces requirements for additional bases. Having UFO conveniently appear near your bases is also far too forced.

Suggestions -

The aliens hordes have got through pretty much unscathed after their arrival. Simulating their alien smugness, why not simply increase the overall number of UFOs for the first week/few days around the world. This increases the chance of one landing somewhere within your Chinook range. Once the aliens know that they can be intercepted, they pull back (and begin to work harder on Scouts instead of Light Scouts say) after that week/few days. Altering the ticker rate for that period due to the increased alien activity and mission successes may be required.

Start the game at the first Xenonauts Interception. Just alter the text from the Balkans or wherever it was to something more generic. This is the mission where the Xenonauts announce themselves to the funding nations.At least this gives the player an intro to r&d as well as funding cycles. The rest stays as it is. Sometimes you can get a few extra craft within range and sometimes you won't. That's part of the game.

[Buzzles]

I like the idea of a few more crashsites at the start and you could explain the crashing at the start by adding something to the Alien Invasion research which expands the sentance of their aircraft not being suited for atmosphere:

"Alongside fact that the craft we've observed are not currently suited to atmospheric flying , we've also noted that certain meteorological events compound the issues they have resulting in smaller and less capable craft crashing down to Earth rather than escaping back to their orbital fleet. We do expect this to be reticfied quickly by the aliens, but it gives us a narrow window where we should be able to explore crashsites without having to shoot them down first"

I do disagree with the choice of just giving dropships longer range though, unless you're willing to explore the previous suggestion (in the Idea's forum) of trading cargo space for fuel as a choice the player can make to get to crash sites outside of his normal range.

However, I do recall talk at one point of a "nuke from orbit" option being added to crash sites and/or terror sites. I think if that option is possibly also available in conjunction with trading space for fuel, then there's going to be enough choices for the player which won't remove the desire for more bases as well as letting them "deal" with all the crashsites in some way, but I think the fact the player can't reach and complete every crash site with their troopers really adds to the feel that they're a bit overwhelmed and underequipped.

As for training, I agree with StellarRat. It should be rookies throughout the game, as they'll get the benefits of armour and weapons anyway, but with Jean-Luc's idea of occasionally throwing in Corporals and Sergeants into the recruiting pool as well. A % chance based on the ticker value?

Just handing out Corporals and Sergeants seems a bit of cop out and puts less emphasis on promotions and gaining experience.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Buzzles

[StellarRat]

If I were POTUS, why would I be funding Xenonauts, if my own airforce can now do the job?

I always assumed that the Xenonauts were super elite special forces (the best of best of best) that can do jobs the local military is not suited for, like capturing live aliens AND they have an equally elite team of researchers and engineers from all over the world that you simply can't get find in just one country. Kind of like the best of the best that worked on the Manhattan Project. So, I guess my answer would be why does the POTUS fund the SEALS or the Green Berets? Besides your own air force can't do the job really. Sure they can shoot down a UFO here and there, but they don't have the Ops and research people to win. All they can do is slow down the invaders slightly. Eventually, the UFOs will become too capable and only the advanced (hand built) Xenonaut craft will be able to bring them down. Edited October 16, 2012 by StellarRat

[HWP]

Exactly what he said. I don't buy the idea that at the beginning of the game you'd have craft much more advanced than what the rest of the militaries have. You are starting slow.

The point of Xenonauts is not to stand there holding the line. I don't know - don't want to know yet - what it will be in this game, but the point of the original X-COM was to hit Cydonia and cut off the invasion's cord. That's your purpose, not small fights here and there. And that's what regular military can't do.

Resist the invasion, they can probably do better than you, due to numbers.

[thothkins]

the backstory suggests that the Xenonauts keep ahead of the curve when it comes to tech, and pinches a handful of the best personnel available for the start of the game.

But beyond that, remember, you're hiring them from funding nations, so that's where the expertise is. As shown in your initial troops being better than the rookies. No doubt, if they had skills, your starting techs, scientists and pilots would also be better.

But the point above was that local forces should get to don't UFOs for you to investigate. Now as Xenonauts gets funding on the basis that only it can combat the alien threat, it's going to look silly if other people can do it too. "Here and there" is enough in the early game to get a decent start on the research after all.

While they may not have the starting handful of researchers and engineers, going by your ability to hire as many as space allows for in the game, would suggest they have plenty of resources of their own. With some downed UFOs to research, they won't be that far behind,. The question is, will that delay be en0ough to doom everyone?

As for throwing in the odd Sgt or Corporal, I'm not too keen. Going with having the best of the best approach, regardless of previous ability everyone should start their Xenonaut career at the bottom.