Difficulty Curve Smoothing

[hellig]

If the crash is out of reach, let them hire some jets to reach, parachute out, as it has been stated before, add in jean lucs idea about cheaper bases, so if they para out you will have to make a base nearby to collect them again, it will also encourage people to make more bases, and the ball is rolling:)

A dirt track to land on, quickly erected barrack, a mobile radar installation as the first cheap start of a new base

Also stellars idea seems the best to train new rookies. the bell curve

Edited October 18, 2012 by hellig

[Blaster]

I agree with the general consensus regarding 1).

Blanket upgrades to recruits doesn't sit well with me, feels bland and would leave me questioning it as a player. Occasional sergeants etc. in the recruiting pool is the perfect compromise, and would generally make the recruiting pool just more interesting.

Rather than have this increase over time, I would prefer a set chance for their appearance in the pool that doesn't change, or changes depending on country relationship. If you're good to a country, having that country willing to provide its more valuable troops makes sense (player rewarded for their efforts, game reacts to your decisions, all positive things!).

Like most x-com players, I've always prepared for and accommodated for casualties by rotating members anyway and I haven't considered it a problem at all, but a fun part of the game.

Regarding 2) I agree with you that I don't like the idea of the 'cheating' ufo positioning. The geoscape would lose a lot of credibility if I knew that was going on and would lesson the impact of my decisions on where to place my base(s). I'm not against the idea of alien craft occasionally crashing on their own accord or due to non-xcom forces, but to really solve the problem I would suggest:

-To seriously consider Jean-Luc's ideas regarding cheaper base creation. It wouldn't need to be as complicated or game-mechanic changing as making the player pay for different sized chunks of land (although that would be awesome), just reducing the initial cost of new base deployment (say to something as cheap as 300,000) while slightly increasing the cost of the actual buildings would allow us to make specialized refuelling spots for the chinook. (simple entrance+hanger, maybe storage/living quarters)

-Increase the length of time alien crafts stay landed, thereby increasing the number of ground missions without necessarily increasing the number of crashed air craft. I don't think I've actually managed to attack a single alien that wasn't a terror mission or a crashed craft. Is it even possible?

-I know that this has been out-right dismissed before, but since I like the idea and think it would fit in nicely with specialized bases I'm going to suggest it again: missile batteries having AA capabilities on the geoscape. I really don't think this would replace the functionality of interceptors. Interceptors would still have the advantage of being far more versatile, more range, and slightly less likely of giving away exact positioning of your base. Just a simple short-range measure that doesn't make bases feel helpless while your air support is still getting its legs, and letting your chinook leave the base with slightly more safety. Having your chinook shot down is probably the most cold-hearted thing the game can deal to you.

Edit: regarding chinook range, with cheaper bases this wouldn't be a problem, but the game should let you know that a destination is out of range before setting off for the target. I've accidentally messed up a couple terror missions this way!

Edited October 19, 2012 by Blaster

[steelwarrior]

1) I like the idea of getting some veterans from countries with good relationship while time progresses just not to high leveled (under avaerage of existing squads) and not too many.

2) Having locals shoot some UFOs at the beginning and some crashing as they are adopting and having longer landing times as they are just starting their research of earth would be all reasonable and ok within the lore - later on ships are better accustomed to the earth and to big for local forces...so one has time to gain cash and build more bases...

Locals offer for shot down/crashed/long time landing UFOs their transport as they want the specilist to take over...so the number needs to be balanced for those missions to not change to much of the all over game balance...

[TrashMan]

1) I have to disagree wiht you guys. The idea that there is no one competent on the planet doesn't sit well with me.

What exactly IS the problem with getting better recruits? (other that someones bruised ego).

What exactly IS the problem with training (devised by your own best soldiers).

I don't get it.

Recruit a guy and put in in for training.

It makes sense.

It has a cost ($ and time)

It's not overpowered (1-2 ranks more than what you get)

2) I wouldn't change the Chinook range. Actually I would deliberately prevent all but the most modern dropships from being able to reach everywhere. It will reinforce the need for more than 1 base and 1 strike team.

Speaking of which, has anyone ever built a workshop or laboratory in another base?

[Buzzles]

Speaking of which, has anyone ever built a workshop or laboratory in another base?

Yes. I don't bother with labs in the second base as the first if often big enough (or I have a second lab in the first) and research is "global" anyway, but a workshop and a set of tech's are handy for replacing MIG losses and eventually buidling up a stock of Alenium Missiles and Torpedos in the second base is very handy.

[Buzzles]

Double post, but I'm cool like that so I'll use it:

@Chris,

If you want to make the start of the game a bit more friendly, drop the speed of Scouts down from 2300 to 2100.

The F17's then actually have a chance of engaging when they start appearing on the map, rather than making people sit and wait until they've got MIG's (minimum of 13 or 14 days due to having to build hangers), yet still make MIG's the better option to use as they're guaranteed to actually make the interception.

[thothkins]

1) I have to disagree wiht you guys. The idea that there is no one competent on the planet doesn't sit well with me.

What exactly IS the problem with getting better recruits? (other that someones bruised ego).

What exactly IS the problem with training (devised by your own best soldiers).

I don't get it.

The game starts not only with the Xenonauts not only being the best of available soldiers, but the only one's who have spent decades looking at the alien problem.

Soldiers in other countries, although potentially very good, don't have the focused purpose that Xenonauts have.

For a large part of the game, Xenonauts are the only ones who conduct regular missions against the aliens. There are exceptions where the Xeno-commander doesn't or can't send a chinook. But the vast majority of combat is conducted by the Xenonaut troops.

Personnel from other armed forces may gain experience against alien forces form the missions the Xenonauts leave. But they are nowhere near the experience progression afforded the Xenonauts. The invasion comes in progressive waves, so it's not as though there's a country early on in the game that has had to for a resistance movement to fight off alien hordes. So, there's no way for someone in the local forces to build up huge levels of experience that you can see in the game.

In the late game, local forces are going to be able to take down the small UFOs. After a while of this, it would make some sense that recruits would come in at a little higher, stat wise, than the original hiring pool. But not by a huge amount, not as much as your starting soldiers, and certainly not at a higher rank. The rank is obtained as part of the Xenonauts organisation. You could have been a number of ranks in your previous organisation, but should start afresh when joining the Xenonauts.

As for issues with training, it's simply because there isn't going to be any training in the game.

I agree on the chinook issue though. I'd much rather simply increase the percentage chance of UFOS anywhere in the world for the first week, to enable a few missions, than see the range of the starter craft increase.

I've built a workshop or two at secondary bases. I've done this fairly early on. This was to have facilities and stocks in place before the waves of alien craft started shooting down the transport planes.

[TrashMan]

The game starts not only with the Xenonauts not only being the best of available soldiers, but the only one's who have spent decades looking at the alien problem.

Soldiers in other countries, although potentially very good, don't have the focused purpose that Xenonauts have.

Xenonauts get their soldiers from other countries.

And all the military forces of the world are fighting the aliens on their own too.

Not to mention fighting aliens or sodliers - elite is elite. You wont magicly become stronger or more accurate or faster just because you are fighting aliens. Higher stats and ranks are nothing strange.

Your argument is invalid.

For a large part of the game, Xenonauts are the only ones who conduct regular missions against the aliens. There are exceptions where the Xeno-commander doesn't or can't send a chinook. But the vast majority of combat is conducted by the Xenonaut troops.

As I said before - the militaries of the world are fighting when they can. The UFO's you shot down is only part of hte overall struggle.

Personnel from other armed forces may gain experience against alien forces form the missions the Xenonauts leave. But they are nowhere near the experience progression afforded the Xenonauts. The invasion comes in progressive waves, so it's not as though there's a country early on in the game that has had to for a resistance movement to fight off alien hordes. So, there's no way for someone in the local forces to build up huge levels of experience that you can see in the game.

Experience is experience. A well trained soldier is a well-trained soldier.

Doesn't matter in whos army or SpecOps group, doesn't matter that much against whom.

There's a physical peak a human body has and Xenonauts of whatever agency can't go above it. In other words - there is absolutely no justificatio nwhatsoever why a Xenonauts would be faster, stronger or more accurate than any SpecOps soldier anywhere in the world.

Waht a Xenonaut does have is special equipment and tactics.

[thothkins]

Xenonauts get their soldiers from other countries.

And all the military forces of the world are fighting the aliens on their own too.

Not to mention fighting aliens or sodliers - elite is elite. You wont magicly become stronger or more accurate or faster just because you are fighting aliens. Higher stats and ranks are nothing strange.

Your argument is invalid.

The forces of the world aren't also fighting the aliens on their own. How many boxes appear in the early game saying that "Local forces take care of crashed scouts" are there? That would be none. How many other nations are able to take out alien craft at the formation of Xenonauts. That would be none again.

My above post states that later troops should have higher stats that the original soldiers available from the pool because of their time spent fighting aliens late in the game. But that's late in the game.

Increasing soldier stats are supposed to be a reward for missions against the enemy. In practice, I suppose you could always run around the Chinook for half an hour and dust off again. However, I guess the devs didn't want to simply have static stats all the way throughout the game. After all, if they are already the best of the best, why have their stats increase at all? Once thought is that it's because they are up against an enemy beyond the training undergone by other forces in the world.

There are special forces units that a variety of other ranks join, but once they join they start off at the bottom rung of the new organisation. That's the way I see Xenonauts anyway, and I think it provides a good reward curve for your troops. As I've said, just bringing in higher ranks takes the shine off of that a bit.

As I said before - the militaries of the world are fighting when they can. The UFO's you shot down is only part of the overall struggle.

Which comes down to nuking terror sites and possibly investigating sites that the Xenonauts can't/ don't reach. A comparatively small number. As I mentioned before.

But hey, what would I know with my "invalid" arguments.

[TrashMan]

The forces of the world aren't also fighting the aliens on their own. How many boxes appear in the early game saying that "Local forces take care of crashed scouts" are there? That would be none. How many other nations are able to take out alien craft at the formation of Xenonauts. That would be none again.

Boxes don't have to appear.

Aliens land with or without your permission and knowledge and someone has to deal with them. The military.

The miltary has a LOT of airplanes that aren't much worse than your starting ones.

If your 1 plane can shoot down an UFO, than a 100 of theirs can too.

My above post states that later troops should have higher stats that the original soldiers available from the pool because of their time spent fighting aliens late in the game. But that's late in the game.

After all, if they are already the best of the best, why have their stats increase at all?

They aren't necessarly the best of the best. Xenonauts have to prove themselves to get more funding.

Remeber, this is Cold War era. Not much trust. They still trust their own militaries more than you.

So not getting the "best of the best" early on makes sense.

The militay gives you some decent enough soldiers to shut up the polticians, and keep the best for themselves.

[ElTee]

Eh. I think Chris was too wish washy and is making it way too ambiguous whether they're 'the best of the best with the most high-tech equipment', and then your 3 F17s can take out a scout ship.

So, ignoring the setting is really the best choice when discussing gameplay.

[HWP]

Xenonauts have to prove themselves to get more funding.

And what if your actions in the game only eroded their trust in you?

[thothkins]

Aliens land with or without your permission and knowledge and someone has to deal with them. The military.

The miltary has a LOT of airplanes that aren't much worse than your starting ones.

If your 1 plane can shoot down an UFO, than a 100 of theirs can too.

But the local forces aren't able to deal with them, that's what Xenonauts are there for. I don't know why the local forces are quite as useless as they are, but that's the picture the game paints for you. There's not a single UFO that you see skip across the globe, giving events, that suddenly stops because the locals have either shot it down or killed everyone that landed in it. At least in the early to mid game range anyway.

Likewise, if any of the funding nations had been able to down a single UFO with all of their available aircraft, the game wouldn't be called Xenonauts. If it were the purpose of the game would be...

"You run a covert, fringe organisation that has been rendered utterly obsolete by the nations it was going to blackmail. You have 6 months to wind the facility down and sell off the stock."

But the airforces of the entire world were unable to touch them (shades of that poor Japanese defence force in the original).

So not getting the "best of the best" early on makes sense. The militay gives you some decent enough soldiers to shut up the polticians, and keep the best for themselves.

Fair point. In this case, it's just the way the story of Xenonauts has been presented. Due to their focused anti-alien training the Xenonauts are the best of the best of the best (cue Red Dwarf salute), while the funding nations supply the best of the best, to receive anti-alien experience with the Xenonauts.

In real life, the locals would be running parallel defence options while trying to steal Xenonaut technology. Any Xenonaut recruit would automatically be a spy for their funding nation. Xenonaut funding would have a variable related to how much technology the funding nation had ripped off for it's own programme and how successful their research was. If that meant that the soldiers provided weren;t quite as good as they had to spend time in spy school, then perhaps that's what would happen. Would the commander pick them form the hiring pool though?

[ElTee]

See, that's why you should just ignore the setting when discussing gameplay, since the setting itself just doesn't make too much sense.

[thothkins]

Oh it's certainly a lot easier to tweak some text than it is to alter the game play that's for sure But keeping a broadly consistent set of ideas tying up what the game is about is also important, to provide a cohesive game.

[ElTee]

Well, see, there's a few things.

1. There's only so much Chris would be willing to or can do to paint the setting. Chris does not want to go out of his way to make NPC aircraft and a bunch of scout craft that are only meant to get shot down by them, for example.

2. The fact is that 3 F17s, regardless of whatever new technology will not be on the same level as the entire airforce of the USSR or USA. You can't really reconcile "Xenonauts are the only ones able to take on the aliens" with "An extremely small, international organization during the Cold War that uses human-technology who is the only hope for mankind since only they can take them on". It just isn't believable, so all you can do is suspend your disbelief.

Unless, you scale back the Xenonauts from being "humanitys' only hope" to a "global organization created by the Warsaw Pact & NATO/UN meant to: A. capture and reverse-engineer alien technology B. Come up with a means to counter-attack the alien fleet."

[thothkins]

With you on the first one. It's about the Xenonauts, primarily the battlescape. Behind that, there's only so far that resources will allow.

I have no problem with 2. The back story works for me there. Xenonauts have been analysing what evidence there was form the Iceland Incident. They have at least some idea about the alien craft capability. So, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they worked over decades to have a small selection of customised craft that have a chance of taking down the smallest UFO.

Customising new craft in 3 days, is a bit of stretch though. Suspend disbelief button on Unless they've got the modifications down to a F1 fine art form.

[HWP]

It's also that the resources required to develop meaningful improvements to a fighter aircraft are enormous. One of those F-16's costs your annual budget. And, in 1979, F-16 as a finished service aircraft was just one year old. No time really.

All you could realistically do, in terms of technology, is apply on a silver coating. Maybe add ablative protection on the leading edges, shield internal wiring in extra foil, do some software improvements. Game lore says bigger fuel tanks, well, maybe if you rip out a lot of avionics.

Why even an F-16, rather than the bigger, faster F-15? Yes, the former has its advantages, but F-15 is faster. MiG-25 is faster still.

Your planes might be more survivable, but you know what happens when two attack a light scout, it can't even shoot back.

[TrashMan]

And what if your actions in the game only eroded their trust in you?

You loose. They give the money to their militaries or some other organization.

[TrashMan]

But the local forces aren't able to deal with them, that's what Xenonauts are there for. I don't know why the local forces are quite as useless as they are, but that's the picture the game paints for you. There's not a single UFO that you see skip across the globe, giving events, that suddenly stops because the locals have either shot it down or killed everyone that landed in it. At least in the early to mid game range anyway.

Abstractions. You don't see EVERYTHING that goes on, nor should you.

If the army shot an UFO, who sez they have to inform you?

Remeber - Xenonauts are not part of any military technicly. So you stand in direct competition with the militaries of the world.

Likewise, if any of the funding nations had been able to down a single UFO with all of their available aircraft, the game wouldn't be called Xenonauts. If it were the purpose of the game would be...

"You run a covert, fringe organisation that has been rendered utterly obsolete by the nations it was going to blackmail. You have 6 months to wind the facility down and sell off the stock."

But the airforces of the entire world were unable to touch them (shades of that poor Japanese defence force in the original).

By that logic, no country would every use SpecOps units. After all , is htere anything a Spec Ops units can do that an entire army can't? Not really.

Special forces are about EFFFICIENCY. That doesn't mean that no one can do what they can - they just do it BETTER.

FFs, Xenonauts aircraft only have minor improvements, and use the same starting missiles as other militaries.

Fair point. In this case, it's just the way the story of Xenonauts has been presented. Due to their focused anti-alien training the Xenonauts are the best of the best of the best (cue Red Dwarf salute), while the funding nations supply the best of the best, to receive anti-alien experience with the Xenonauts.

In real life, the locals would be running parallel defence options while trying to steal Xenonaut technology. Any Xenonaut recruit would automatically be a spy for their funding nation. Xenonaut funding would have a variable related to how much technology the funding nation had ripped off for it's own programme and how successful their research was. If that meant that the soldiers provided weren;t quite as good as they had to spend time in spy school, then perhaps that's what would happen. Would the commander pick them form the hiring pool though?

And who sez this isn't happening?

There's a LOT of soldiers in teh world and the militaries have more than enough reasons to not give Xenonauts their best.

[Name]

1) I think in eh begging you should get "experienced" soldiers from the Iceland indecent but they dry up quickly

2) Maybe allow the Chinook to refuel for an inflated price say 100,000 OR 100,000,000 (O GODS THE INFLATION!!!!!!)

3) I don't mine having random crash sites pop up every now and then.

4) Yes I am back and I know you all missed me

[thothkins]

Abstractions. You don't see EVERYTHING that goes on, nor should you.

If the army shot an UFO, who sez they have to inform you? Remeber - Xenonauts are not part of any military technicly. So you stand in direct competition with the militaries of the world.

Actually, all those little events that you see across the globe give lots and lots of information about enemy craft activities. Although Xenonauts aren't part of any one military, the world seem all too happy to give them their best soldiers and infinite equipment.

I'll be sure to use "abstractions" as an utter fob off argument for something else though. Thanks for that. Right up there with "You're trying to confuse things with facts."

Special forces are about EFFFICIENCY. That doesn't mean that no one can do what they can - they just do it BETTER.

FFs, Xenonauts aircraft only have minor improvements, and use the same starting missiles as other militaries.

Well, the point was really talking about the aircraft there, rather than special forces. Regardless of how minor the improvements were, they were enough to make the difference between shooting one down (Xenonauts) and not shooting anything down (every one else). More about technology than numbers or efficiency (unless it's fuel efficiency).

And who sez this isn't happening? There's a LOT of soldiers in the world and the militaries have more than enough reasons to not give Xenonauts their best.

Since there's a point later on in the game that the local forces are supposed to take over small craft, then there is a point when they do get their paws on the technology. Xenonauts doesn't look as though it's set up to share much of the research and the make at a loss manufacturing will prevent even more of that technology getting out there for others to play with.

There's a thread on military skull duggery out there for further ideas on this. Post 4 for starters.

[TrashMan]

Actually, all those little events that you see across the globe give lots and lots of information about enemy craft activities. Although Xenonauts aren't part of any one military, the world seem all too happy to give them their best soldiers and infinite equipment.

Information on alien activities? Yes. But from what sources do they come from?

For all you know you could be getting them from news reports.

And alas, Im afraid that giving you a huge supply of rifles and some soldiers really doesn't sound to me like giving you everything and "the best".

I'll be sure to use "abstractions" as an utter fob off argument for something else though. Thanks for that. Right up there with "You're trying to confuse things with facts."

It's a game. They are always abstracted.

Well, the point was really talking about the aircraft there, rather than special forces. Regardless of how minor the improvements were, they were enough to make the difference between shooting one down (Xenonauts) and not shooting anything down (every one else). More about technology than numbers or efficiency (unless it's fuel efficiency).

Again, since you fail to prive any proof that everyone else is incapable, (despite haivng practicly the same equipment) then it does not stand.

[Gauddlike]

Even if Xenonauts have the only air force capable of taking out alien craft in a close to even fight it doesn't mean no one else will try.

For example the US air force would likely throw everything they had at a craft approaching Washington.

They wouldn't sit back and wait for the Xenonauts to come save them, especially if the only Xeno base was in China or somewhere equally distant.

It may be that Xenonaut forces are designated to take over air interception as part of their charter.

That would only apply in the funding areas local to their bases though.

If Xeno radar coverage is not present then I would assume local forces to be handling air defence.

They may be taking more losses than Xenonauts would (due to their improved aircraft) and would probably be handling their own ground missions in some manner (artillery, air strikes, conventional military).

If that is the case they may be more than happy for you to arrive and be handed the responsibility.

[GoodGuyEddy]

In real life, the locals would be running parallel defence options while trying to steal Xenonaut technology.

Why would they do that if xenonauts already give them all their info?