Build V12 Released!

[thothkins]

No, I'd rather persevere with a "broken" new build and test out the features than go back to something I already know about.

[Gorlom]

No-on ever wanted rid of them. They didn't want them added in the first place.

The user oktober has actually expressed an interest in modding the game to remove females. He feels its a bit too historically inaccurate to have females serve in the front lines. A few others have said they wanted to at least reduce the ratio of women to men.

[Citizen844]

How the heck can a game set in an alternate past be historically inaccurate?

[Gorlom]

Easy:When the military apparatus is using flint rocks and sticks for weapons in a computerized society in this alternate history for no apparent or logical reason. Without there being a point to it some people are bothered with it. Obviously he sees no point in having what he sees as physically unfit soldiers on the front line just because the world has been invaded by aliens.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Gorlom

[Oktober]

The user oktober has actually expressed an interest in modding the game to remove females. He feels its a bit too historically inaccurate to have females serve in the front lines. A few others have said they wanted to at least reduce the ratio of women to men.

I'd actually be pretty happy just being able to adjust that ratio. Having served with men and women, my primary issue is that most people in the military are people I wouldn't want next to me in a combat situation. There were a handful of women who seemed like they'd hold their own, and that's fine! Cut that percentage down to 10% and it'd feel more correct, to me.

Of course another problem I have with the issue is just that psychologically speaking, (and you can check sources on this), it's bad for men and women for women to be in combat. They're less likely to perform as needed in the heat of battle -- which, granted, can be an issue for men as well, though it tends to be less of a problem -- but more importantly, when women are injure in combat situations, men seem to have an instinctual need to abandon the mission in order to attempt to protect/save the injured woman. It's a hardwired instinct that compromises operational effectiveness.

The issue of women serving on the front lines is less about their incapability -- which again, occurs with men, as well -- as much as it has to do with simple good judgment. By removing them from the equation, there's one less variable which can cause mission failure. It's just bad business management to chuck them in the mix too, just for the sake of "equality."

[Gorlom]

my bad. apologize sir

[Oktober]

Nothing to apologize for. You're correct! I have expressed interest in removing the females from the game. But I'd also be okay with having them on the team, albeit in more limited quantities. I was building off of what you'd stated, not arguing with you.

[runequester]

There's some interesting analysis out there on both Soviet and Israeli military service, both of which let women serve in a variety of roles, including front line duty. Interesting reading in any event.

Given that culturally, army life is seen as a male pursuit, it'd make sense to make the ratio maybe 75/25. Having it higher than what I've seen around the world is reasonable in a game about hand picked operatives (that shoot like janitorial staff).

Edit: Despite general crashiness and broken'ness in the alpha (as expected), seeing aliens suppressed from a good burst of gunfire is quite satisfying. That little bit alone will make the game far more tactical.

Edited June 27, 2012 by runequester

[Knox1776]

I would simply make the argument that women in the US Military did NOT serve in a front line capacity during the Cold War time period, which is when this game is set. There is no need to go off on tangents that will likely derail the thread with political correctness issues.

However, keep in mind that XCOM is a multinational organization. Other countries, such as the Soviets and Israel, have no such issues with using women a combat troops.

Therefore, I would argue that having female combat troops is an acceptable factor in this game. If you don't like it, you are free to selectively dismiss troops that do not meet your "physical standards", whether it be action points, strength, or gender. Multinational organizations generally are not subject to any sort of discrimination legislation either.

As a former Army tank gunner during the first Gulf war, I never served with women either. However, I was glad they were around working in the REMF areas like supply. It made evenings at the enlisted clubs a lot more interesting!

[Knox1776]

Anyway, I came to this thread to see if there was any news for a next-build release date... Anything?

I am really enjoying seeing the progress being made. I am simply impatient for the next snapshot build.

[sectoid]

truly touched by this build.

[Oktober]

As a former Army tank gunner during the first Gulf war, I never served with women either. However, I was glad they were around working in the REMF areas like supply. It made evenings at the enlisted clubs a lot more interesting!

Xenonauts don't need this kind of distraction! They've got a job to do!

Also, my first two bases always seem to be on Crete and in Florida. I'm sure the guys'll find plenty of interesting leisure activities without beefy-lady coworkers getting in the way.

[thothkins]

If you don't like it, you are free to selectively dismiss troops that do not meet your "physical standards"

that's a creepy thought. Folks sitting around their X-Com type games only selecting soldiers with particular gender/ethnicity...

[Guest]

that's a creepy thought. Folks sitting around their X-Com type games only selecting soldiers with particular gender/ethnicity...

How so?

[Slippery Jim]

I am only going to recruit fat soldiers. I want to blow the monthly budget on food and toilet paper.

errr, maybe that won't be a winning strategy against aliens.

[Gus]

All soldiers must have yellow hair!

[Gauddlike]

And Guile style hair cuts, it worked before, why shouldn't it work again!

[Oktober]

Only feeling comfortable placing men in the line of fire is a far cry from Aryanism -- even, if not especially, within the confines of a videogame.

People cry about "equal treatment." Getting shot at is not a privilege. It's something that any sane person tries to avoid at all costs. Typically the people that excel in combat roles as psychopaths (clinically speaking). Normal people (men and women) that are forced to engage in combat generally suffer from PTSD. The few that don't suffer from "feelings" make great soldiers.

There's a whole range of arguments against placing women in combat roles. They're "sexist" in that the recognize the differences between women and men. They're still reasonable, since there are differences between women and men.

[Gauddlike]

If someone wants to take those risks, and is capable of doing so, then taking that choice away from them because of their gender, race, or any other reason is not a good thing.

Give people the choice and fit them into the roles they are suited for and let them get on with it.

This is however a computer game and has only the barest connection to reality.

There are relatively few games where the pursuits of the characters would be physically possible for any human.

That doesn't mean human characters should be removed, it means you need to suspend your disbelief and enjoy playing the game for what it is.

[Oktober]

...fit them into the roles they are suited for and let them get on with it.

Precisely. For the type of military service we're talking about here, 95% of males also are not suited for the work. Of primary importance is operational effectiveness.

Again, a certain type of mental illness is almost a prerequisite for success in special forces. (I'd recommend checking out On Killing.)

Beyond that, the physical requirements are prohibitive for most men, and all women. Even your ultra-fit, Olympic-level female athletes aren't designed for this type of work. It's not sexism, it's biology.

And psychology. From Wikipedia:

"In On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society, Lt. Col. Dave Grossman briefly mentions that female soldiers in the Israel Defense Forces have been officially prohibited from serving in close combat military operations since 1948. The reason for removing female soldiers from the front lines was due less to the performance of female soldiers, and more due to the behavior of the male infantrymen after witnessing a woman wounded. The IDF saw a complete loss of control over soldiers who apparently experienced an uncontrollable, protective, instinctual aggression, severely degrading the unit's combat effectiveness."

My Xenonauts don't need these distractions!

EDIT: On further reading of that same Wikipedia article there are listed additional reasons why and why not to use female soldiers. Particularly in Islam-ruled areas, men will refuse to surrender to female soldiers, whereas the women are much easier to handle if they're approached by female soldiers.

I'd be way more happy about having women on the team if there were a game-context reason for employing them. Higher resistance to psionics, something like that. Make them an asset to the Xenonauts, something to be excited about and jealously guarded, and I'll be behind it 100%.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Oktober

[Knox1776]

So any word on the next build?

[Stuman]

I can't believe you guys are having this discussion. It's a game. It's a game about fighting aliens. It's a game about fighting aliens in 1979. Oddly enough some of us were actually around back in them days. It didn't happen. I was in Uncle Sam's Misguided Children back in them days (now I know how my father felt when saying "them days") and never heard of an alien invasion. But I remember women in the military. I remember when a female team came in from Israel for a demonstration on tactics. Small arms, hand to hand that kind of thing. These chicks ask for volunteers and no way in hell was I going to fall for that but bigger than shit my platoon commander and platoon sergeant are like "Ok, how bad can it be?"

That was easy money. I could not believe there were guy's betting against the women in hand to hand. Small arms we held our own. We were used to shooting 200, 300, 500 yrd ranges. We did that all the time. But hand to hand. I just laughed my ass off. The Captain and the Gunny were frickin' rag dolls. In all fairness it was way before USMC line training but still they were Vietnam vets and had been trained in hand to hand. These ladies were not of any unusual size. They looked just like any other girl walking down the street. Couple of them were hot and yes we hung out at the E club after the demonstration. There were about 10 of them but there were couple hundred of them that were trained in the same fashion. That was in 77 or 78. I know I had my blood stripe. I just made NCO. It was a few months after that promotion. We took a couple of them to the NCO club. In retrospect if we were thinking we would have taken them to someplace nice. But you know, young and dumb.

The bottom line is male female, straight gay if you can consistently prosecute a target with the weapon you were trained on everything else is somebody crying because they don't have anything else better to do. The object is to defeat the enemy. And if your sisters in arms are hot.... all the better when it's over. (You really do need to see the big picture) OK I'll shut up now.

[Oktober]

"Expertise in krav maga" is not equivalent to "best choice for front-line soldier."

[sectoid]

So any word on the next build?

hopefully they don't NERF things like in Diablo 3.

[xcom]

I´m not sure if anyone managed to do it, but i just loaded a game sucessfully ! I was playing in ironman mode and just finished a ground combat then looked at some base screens and closed the game. Didn't quit the launcher then tried to load successfully. Then closed and quit the game completely and was able to load it again. I hope that helps debugging the problem.