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Chris

Gameplay Feedback - Stress & Soldier Panic System

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Hi these are my thoughts on this topic.

Whilst i understand and agree to stress (entering a mission) i believe that this coupled with additional stress from time in combat is too much.

 

My people can do a couple of battles and then are ruined for a long time. 

 

My view is that these are combat trained personnel, and the "stress" impact is making me rush missions in order to reduce the stress levels, whereas in reality it should be about creating covering fire and not rushing into an area and hoping that you dont get shot

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Stress is an interesting element of the game, but it needs to be a combination of a number of factors, i.e.(Bravery, Reflexes, and Hit points), and recovery should also be link to the same. This is so that you will have more unique characters in the game, and give your a better dynamic's experience, within the game.

At the moment you know that a character will be out of the game, after 4 missions, which means you need to hire more troops, so you have to build more barracks, and this takes up space in the base complex, which reduces what else to can build, later in the game, and at this time in the game, you have a finite number of base squares to build in. Then you need more power??

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, it´s a job-Site the Devs working on. It´s not finished yet until Early Access beginns and there can be like in other not finished Parts come changes, refits or reworks. But I aggree as an active Beta-Tester that 4 Missions are to less, esp. with the to less dayly Base-Stress-Dropping, dosen´t matter in active or passive Duty.

Panic is good, there you have many many ways to drop it. There only some finetunings have to be done after the missing implementations. It´s similar now like in XCOM: EU / EW, but with many new implementations in Xenonauts 2.

Edited by Alienkiller

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20 hours ago, Ruggerman said:

Stress is an interesting element of the game, but it needs to be a combination of a number of factors, i.e.(Bravery, Reflexes, and Hit points), and recovery should also be link to the same. This is so that you will have more unique characters in the game, and give your a better dynamic's experience, within the game.

At the moment you know that a character will be out of the game, after 4 missions, which means you need to hire more troops, so you have to build more barracks, and this takes up space in the base complex, which reduces what else to can build, later in the game, and at this time in the game, you have a finite number of base squares to build in. Then you need more power??

I think one of the main goals of xen 2 is to force the player to make tough strategic decisions on the geoscape. In xen 1, you pretty easily build things like all of your interceptors(I like building 2 condors and 2 foxtrot for every base) and base structures in the first month and grind out every UFO to get above the experience and resource curves. 

In xen 2, systems like stress, power, and more base structures gotten after research prevent the player from doing all of the things above and forces the player to make tougher decisions on the geoscape. 

In xen 1, grinding out every UFO you can was the most optimal option. However with the edition of stress, that is necessarily the best option anymore and allows the player more options that can be considered just as optimal to each other. You could let your soldiers rest which allows you to save money, power, and base space at the cost of losing valuable exp and alien materials. You could also put in the effort to accommodate space for extra soldiers so you can go on more missions at the cost of power, money, and base space. 

Do I agree that this system could improved upon? Of course. I agree that the recovery of stress should be linked to a soldier's stats, that would help to differentiate the soldiers a little better. This system also encourages hiring more soldiers, so a squad creation system should be in place so it would be convenient to be able to easily easily switch squads on the fly to take out a lot of micromanagement.

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On 4/8/2021 at 1:37 PM, nickeck said:

My view is that these are combat trained personnel, and the "stress" impact is making me rush missions in order to reduce the stress levels, whereas in reality it should be about creating covering fire and not rushing into an area and hoping that you dont get shot

I completely agree. I have already written something like this, but for some reason it is not taken into account.

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Posted (edited)

Stress, Panic and all other Limitations are a MUST HAVE Thing in that Gerne. There is no alternative.

The first Games, where 90 % of the Elements were not showable (like in old X-Com-Row and similar Fan-Games) could only show the Money and Materials-Limiter. The only Alternative in that Time for the missing Stress and other showable Limiter-Systems the Devs had only the Option to take out the Soldiers for minimum 1 Month.

I and the big Medium to old Player-Generation, which begunn Gaming in the beginning 1980s like such Systems, because you have to use your Brain and Think therefore what you will do. Not an 08/15-Rush like in Command & Conquer-Series and in Xenonauts 1. Such 08/15-Games where no Brain etc. get used is more for the young-child-Generation growing up. That´s why the World and Humans get Dump more and more. The Generation today are to much petted and wanna have everthing easy. Not to much thinking or handmoving. That makes me very very very :mad:.

I´m a Backer and an Betetaster from Xenonauts 2 to get an Game with such limitations an not an 08/15-Mainstream-Shit. If you wanna have 08/15-Mainstream-Shit take 1 or 2 Year Devoloped Games from EA and such Publishers where 1 or 2 Patches comming and everything is finished (No Modding, No medium to longtime Support etc.).

That´s why Stellaris, Hoi 4, the new XCOM-Row, Motorsport Manager, the Mafia-Row, the Civilization-Row, UFO ET-Row and similar good Games which are in the 10 % fully playable Games with long Time Support are the game market Leader from that Gerne.

Good back to Topic. Follwoing Limitations Xenonauts 2 MUST HAVE:

1. Less lootet Materials (implemented) :)

2. Less Manpower, therefore you have to use your Brain for save Humanity (implemented) :)

3. Limitation on Bases and Money (implemented) :cool:

4. Special Missions which limit your Personal more for direct firefights (which get implemented again in XCOM 2 WotC and for Tests looonnnggg before in the UFO-After-Series) :)

5. UFOs don´t show up so often [like it´s now] and don´t get automatically salvaged and researched. They have to be investigated from Technicans as well as Scientists (a whish from the Communiy and the Players / as well as an important Refit-Solution for big remaining Problems the Devs still have with the Loot- and Bonus-Systems)

6. UFOs need then for R & D special secret Hangars where R & D can be done. Either seperate in your Bases or on the Outposts. Means you can only have limited UFOs but more new Material (not to much but maybe 30 to 40 % more from the big UFO-Parts) and more smaller Secrets like Magnets, Grenades etc. in the boxes the UFOs have. Belongs on the Damage the UFO have.

6a. Alien-Bases Looting and Terror-Site / Raid-Site / Special-Mission-Site Looting need something similar. Maybe as an special Mission with Scientists and Engeeniers.

7. Stress for the Soldiers on Missions like they are now as Basics, but not the Round-Based-Stress for the Mission every Turn. There I totaly agree with you Guys. An other Option is to make it like in XCOM 2, where the Stress make the Soldier more and more useless until she / he had a limited break. (already annanouced from the Comrades)

8. An faster Stress-Reduction like in XCOM 2 or Phoenix Point. There the Reduction is soluted very good. Harder it will be here in Xenonauts 2.

The only Aspect I see is to wait for UFO2ET and look how good the Devs here soluted the Stress-System for the Soldiers. The Release is not far away. It´s the direct Competitor with the same Base-Principle to Xenonauts 2. [Soldiers, Vehicles, etc.]

And 3 other Thing they all have common:

1. Every good Feature from the Predecessor comes with upgrades, reworks, Graphic-Refits etc. back to save Development Time. And with the bugfixes the Modders have found in the Predecessor.

2. They have the Limitations such Games must have for the Player as well as Aliens in both Games.

3. The Aliens have a plan why the Attack Earth for the Storyline:

a) they need much Ressources from our Star-System and / or on Earth (UFO ET-Row, UFO-After-Row etc.)

b) Need the Humans directly for overliving (like in XCOM 2 with the ampulla) and a new Homeworld (XCOM EU / XCOM EW, XCOM: Buerau, XCOM 2) with limited Humans as their Special-Forces [Advent] as an Army against an bigger Threat

c) Need a new Homeworld without Humans and finding their missing Comrades as well as fleeing from an bigger Threat (old XCom-Row)

Short said: If you play the Games long enough (UFO ET or the old X-Com-Row as the best example), then you don´t have time to make all Ground Missions with UFOs about several Resasons. So you have to either pass UFOs to concentrate on the important things (Terror-Sites, Raid-Sites, Secret Missions) to reduce Panic etc. as well as save Material- / Manpower and Money. As well as the Final-Stage to win the Game. Otherwise you loosing the Game before you reach the Middle-Stage.

And Xenonauts 2 is beside XCOM: Bureau (Tacticshooter of the new XCOM-Row) the first one from that Strategy-Part-Games where you have more then 1 Final-Option. Minimum for Xenonauts 2 will be 3 announced Final-Options. XCOM: Bureau give you 4 or 5 if I remember me correctly.

Edited by Alienkiller

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4 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

Stress, Panic and all other Limitations are a MUST HAVE Thing in that Gerne. There is no alternative.

The first Games, where 90 % of the Elements were not showable (like in old X-Com-Row and similar Fan-Games) could only show the Money and Materials-Limiter. The only Alternative in that Time for the missing Stress and other showable Limiter-Systems the Devs had only the Option to take out the Soldiers for minimum 1 Month.

I and the big Medium to old Player-Generation, which begunn Gaming in the beginning 1980s like such Systems, because you have to use your Brain and Think therefore what you will do. Not an 08/15-Rush like in Command & Conquer-Series and in Xenonauts 1. Such 08/15-Games where no Brain etc. get used is more for the young-child-Generation growing up. That´s why the World and Humans get Dump more and more. The Generation today are to much petted and wanna have everthing easy. Not to much thinking or handmoving. That makes me very very very :mad:.

I´m a Backer and an Betetaster from Xenonauts 2 to get an Game with such limitations an not an 08/15-Mainstream-Shit. If you wanna have 08/15-Mainstream-Shit take 1 or 2 Year Devoloped Games from EA and such Publishers where 1 or 2 Patches comming and everything is finished (No Modding, No medium to longtime Support etc.).

That´s why Stellaris, Hoi 4, the new XCOM-Row, Motorsport Manager, the Mafia-Row, the Civilization-Row, UFO ET-Row and similar good Games which are in the 10 % fully playable Games with long Time Support are the game market Leader from that Gerne.

Good back to Topic. Follwoing Limitations Xenonauts 2 MUST HAVE:

1. Less lootet Materials (implemented) :)

2. Less Manpower, therefore you have to use your Brain for save Humanity (implemented) :)

3. Limitation on Bases and Money (implemented) :cool:

4. Special Missions which limit your Personal more for direct firefights (which get implemented again in XCOM 2 WotC and for Tests looonnnggg before in the UFO-After-Series) :)

5. UFOs don´t show up so often [like it´s now] and don´t get automatically salvaged and researched. They have to be investigated from Technicans as well as Scientists (a whish from the Communiy and the Players / as well as an important Refit-Solution for big remaining Problems the Devs still have with the Loot- and Bonus-Systems)

6. UFOs need then for R & D special secret Hangars where R & D can be done. Either seperate in your Bases or on the Outposts. Means you can only have limited UFOs but more new Material (not to much but maybe 30 to 40 % more from the big UFO-Parts) and more smaller Secrets like Magnets, Grenades etc. in the boxes the UFOs have. Belongs on the Damage the UFO have.

6a. Alien-Bases Looting and Terror-Site / Raid-Site / Special-Mission-Site Looting need something similar. Maybe as an special Mission with Scientists and Engeeniers.

7. Stress for the Soldiers on Missions like they are now as Basics, but not the Round-Based-Stress for the Mission every Turn. There I totaly agree with you Guys. An other Option is to make it like in XCOM 2, where the Stress make the Soldier more and more useless until she / he had a limited break. (already annanouced from the Comrades)

8. An faster Stress-Reduction like in XCOM 2 or Phoenix Point. There the Reduction is soluted very good. Harder it will be here in Xenonauts 2.

The only Aspect I see is to wait for UFO2ET and look how good the Devs here soluted the Stress-System for the Soldiers. The Release is not far away. It´s the direct Competitor with the same Base-Principle to Xenonauts 2. [Soldiers, Vehicles, etc.]

And 3 other Thing they all have common:

1. Every good Feature from the Predecessor comes with upgrades, reworks, Graphic-Refits etc. back to save Development Time. And with the bugfixes the Modders have found in the Predecessor.

2. They have the Limitations such Games must have for the Player as well as Aliens in both Games.

3. The Aliens have a plan why the Attack Earth for the Storyline:

a) they need much Ressources from our Star-System and / or on Earth (UFO ET-Row, UFO-After-Row etc.)

b) Need the Humans directly for overliving (like in XCOM 2 with the ampulla) and a new Homeworld (XCOM EU / XCOM EW, XCOM: Buerau, XCOM 2) with limited Humans as their Special-Forces [Advent] as an Army against an bigger Threat

c) Need a new Homeworld without Humans and finding their missing Comrades as well as fleeing from an bigger Threat (old XCom-Row)

Short said: If you play the Games long enough (UFO ET or the old X-Com-Row as the best example), then you don´t have time to make all Ground Missions with UFOs about several Resasons. So you have to either pass UFOs to concentrate on the important things (Terror-Sites, Raid-Sites, Secret Missions) to reduce Panic etc. as well as save Material- / Manpower and Money. As well as the Final-Stage to win the Game. Otherwise you loosing the Game before you reach the Middle-Stage.

And Xenonauts 2 is beside XCOM: Bureau (Tacticshooter of the new XCOM-Row) the first one from that Strategy-Part-Games where you have more then 1 Final-Option. Minimum for Xenonauts 2 will be 3 announced Final-Options. XCOM: Bureau give you 4 or 5 if I remember me correctly.

Woah there buddy, that's going a little off the rails dont you think? 

Yes I agree that there needs to be limitations in order to allow more interesting decision making in the geoscape. In xen 1, doing every UFO was the most optimal choice since you get more funds, materials, and soldier exp making any other decision mostly worthless. Systems like stress help to create strategical diversity because grinding every UFO isn't the most optimal option anymore. 

All I'm saying is these systems can be improved upon to make the game more interesting. For example, several have stated that the current implementation of stress makes them rush missions, which doesn't encourage them to slowly outflank and out smart the aliens. Instead, it makes them make poor decisions because they are quickly rushing into every fight. 

A way to improve upon this is that soldier stress doesn't slowly grow as you complete the map. Instead, it grows as your team see themselves and their comrades die, get fatally wounded, suffer through a psionic attack, get suppressed, etc. This system promotes an efficient style of play, which means that this discourages turtleling especially against psionic enemies and it discourages running into fights mindlessly.

Another nitpick I have with stress is that I dont want to take a bunch if time to replace a bunch of soldiers on the drop ship; instead, I would really like a squad system that allows me to replace everybody in two clicks. 

I have some nitpicks for the current base building system as well. I would really like to be able to directly upgrade buildings to their superior for a lesser cost and time because it saves me from destroying buildings just to build another one. From the footage I've seen, the early game encourages you to build a couple generators to allow you expand you base with future unlockable buildings (the expanded radar for example), but that investment would be a waste once I start building aluminum reactors. If this system were used, then you can feel free to make these early investments and wont regret it when you get a superior building. 

Point is, most of these new mechanics are great, but there are ways that they can be improved to make the player experience better.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, in some Parts where the Game needs Upgrades, Refits, Reworks and similar. There I aggree.

Upgradeable Buildings should be upgradeable (like Generators, Medical, Workshop, Research, Living and similar. The better Radar you have to build up seperately, for several Reasons already more then enough announced. But the third version of Radar you can upgrade from second one (explenation why you need the big ones are more then enough). The old Radar-Room you can refit then in an other useable Room (Defense / an other useable Buildung you have or you wait for an special Building which give you Informations about the Aliens on Terror Sites, Raid Misssions, UFOs etc.).

There I advice Stellaris as well as XCOM 2 / XCOM 2 WotC. They handle that Part very very good.

 

What the switching from Soldiers to the Transport belongs is following: The Idea with the full team change allone is nonsene. As an Option in the Game-Settings it´s ok for the Players which wanna have it, but not for all, esp. for them which can handle that single Soldier-Changes-System asleep.

1. Reason: You limit a full Team doing their job, because of only 1 or 2 Soldiers get to much Stress or whatever. That Team is blocked for about 1 Month fully. = not acceptable for an old X-Com / new XCOM / UFO-ET-Series-Player!

2. Reason: You get more Micromanagement then lesser. Why? The Answers are easy.

- If you get an Team where you can switch the soldiers altogether in the Transport then you reduce that Micromanagement on the first look. In the following second and more locks you see the extrawork.

- The extrawork is following: You need an single-Switch for Soldiers in the Teammanagement, which makes more extrawork as it is now.

- First and Main-Disadvantage: announced in 1. Reason!

- Secoond Main-Disadvantage: Teams block Soldiers with Special Training / Special Equipment earlyer or later. You miss an Main-Important Special Mission only, while exactly that Soldier are assagined to a Team! = Absolutely NO GO!

- there are much more why an Team Management is not good. Only with very very much Extrawork incl. swichtching the Main-Disadvantantages to satisfyable Advantages (and they must be very very satisfyable) an Team-Management-Thing can be implemented for all.

I and many others don´t see an Reason to implement an System which has to much Disadvantages to relive the good working exsisting System we have.

 

The Stress-Raising / Stress-Reduction is an other Theme, where we can implement already existing Features without to much effort.

1. Yeah, good Idea with the Dying- / PSI- and similar effects. That is an effect, where all prevouis Games set only as Panic, because they don´t have an Stress-System. Only XCOM 2 / XCOM 2 WotC implemented such an similar System the first time as well as Phoenix Point later on at the End of the Missions.

2. Yeah, the other Advantage to use more of that System is from an Competitor (XCOM 2 / XCOM 2 WotC). Instead raising the Stress-Level every Round in Battle there is an very easy solution. Like an Comrade already announced link the Stress-System with the Bravery etc. Parts from the Soldier. It has an same effect then like the very very good exsiting Stress-System from XCOM 2 / XCOM 2 and Phoenix Point, where the Soldier get tired and lack in concentration instead. 

3. To raise the Soldier / Soldiers again to full Operation Level they get breaks in the Living Quarter and an not integrated Buildung yet. After near Outposts get upgraded they are useable for the Stress-Limitation too and have an big effect, esp. for the medium / high stressed Level Soldiers.

Short said: There are much Potential open to use the Stress-Feature.

 

The Panic-Raising / Panic-Reduction from an Soldier in Battle and on Geoscape uses the same effect. Panic is reduced to bravery, but rasing from the same Battle-Effects like Stress. The Reduction is coupled on the same Things, which reduces the Stress too.

 

 

Edited by Alienkiller

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4 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

Yeah, in some Parts where the Game needs Upgrades, Refits, Reworks and similar. There I aggree.

Upgradeable Buildings should be upgradeable (like Generators, Medical, Workshop, Research, Living and similar. The better Radar you have to build up seperately, for several Reasons already more then enough announced. But the third version of Radar you can upgrade from second one (explenation why you need the big ones are more then enough). The old Radar-Room you can refit then in an other useable Room (Defense / an other useable Buildung you have or you wait for an special Building which give you Informations about the Aliens on Terror Sites, Raid Misssions, UFOs etc.).

There I advice Stellaris as well as XCOM 2 / XCOM 2 WotC. They handle that Part very very good.

 

What the switching from Soldiers to the Transport belongs is following: The Idea with the full team change allone is nonsene. As an Option in the Game-Settings it´s ok for the Players which wanna have it, but not for all, esp. for them which can handle that single Soldier-Changes-System asleep.

1. Reason: You limit a full Team doing their job, because of only 1 or 2 Soldiers get to much Stress or whatever. That Team is blocked for about 1 Month fully. = not acceptable for an old X-Com / new XCOM / UFO-ET-Series-Player!

2. Reason: You get more Micromanagement then lesser. Why? The Answers are easy.

- If you get an Team where you can switch the soldiers altogether in the Transport then you reduce that Micromanagement on the first look. In the following second and more locks you see the extrawork.

- The extrawork is following: You need an single-Switch for Soldiers in the Teammanagement, which makes more extrawork as it is now.

- First and Main-Disadvantage: announced in 1. Reason!

- Secoond Main-Disadvantage: Teams block Soldiers with Special Training / Special Equipment earlyer or later. You miss an Main-Important Special Mission only, while exactly that Soldier are assagined to a Team! = Absolutely NO GO!

- there are much more why an Team Management is not good. Only with very very much Extrawork incl. swichtching the Main-Disadvantantages to satisfyable Advantages (and they must be very very satisfyable) an Team-Management-Thing can be implemented for all.

I and many others don´t see an Reason to implement an System which has to much Disadvantages to relive the good working exsisting System we have.

 

The Stress-Raising / Stress-Reduction is an other Theme, where we can implement already existing Features without to much effort.

1. Yeah, good Idea with the Dying- / PSI- and similar effects. That is an effect, where all prevouis Games set only as Panic, because they don´t have an Stress-System. Only XCOM 2 / XCOM 2 WotC implemented such an similar System the first time as well as Phoenix Point later on at the End of the Missions.

2. Yeah, the other Advantage to use more of that System is from an Competitor (XCOM 2 / XCOM 2 WotC). Instead raising the Stress-Level every Round in Battle there is an very easy solution. Like an Comrade already announced link the Stress-System with the Bravery etc. Parts from the Soldier. It has an same effect then like the very very good exsiting Stress-System from XCOM 2 / XCOM 2 and Phoenix Point, where the Soldier get tired and lack in concentration instead. 

3. To raise the Soldier / Soldiers again to full Operation Level they get breaks in the Living Quarter and an not integrated Buildung yet. After near Outposts get upgraded they are useable for the Stress-Limitation too and have an big effect, esp. for the medium / high stressed Level Soldiers.

Short said: There are much Potential open to use the Stress-Feature.

 

The Panic-Raising / Panic-Reduction from an Soldier in Battle and on Geoscape uses the same effect. Panic is reduced to bravery, but rasing from the same Battle-Effects like Stress. The Reduction is coupled on the same Things, which reduces the Stress too.

 

 

I mean, they can make it so it is relatively easy to switch soldiers between or out of teams/squads. I'm just saying that this system would just cut out all the micromanagement needed to fill the dropship. This system would also be fully optional to use so you dont have to manage squads is you dont want to.

I dont follow and how micromanaging single soldiers is much more work than micromanaging an entire team. Your points 1 and 2 dont make sense to me. 

I mostly agree with your additions to stress, 

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Posted (edited)

We will see what the Devs bring in with the next Versions beginning with V.19. We can only give Suggestions and Solutions, but the Devs reading the Forum in Xenonauts 2-Part. What they are doing with it belongs to them.

But what is working here works in the Games from Paradox too. It take longer in medium to bigger Companys, but the Problemchild there (Hoi 4) get now with the next big Patches and DLC a full refit. The cool thing on Xenonauts 2 is, that X2 is still in Buildup-Phase and can reworked, refited and upgraded with only 1/6 or much lesser of the Time an full playable Game have.

Edited by Alienkiller

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