Ground Combat Balance - V22 Experimental 9

[KevinHann]

Aww I was so relieved I could shoot them down if I ever got a clear aim at them, thought it was better to have them suppress and hide to support the real alien firepower. Will have to see how it works now but while playing 21 stable I was thinking they would be formidable foes with some improvements in AI, not health.

[kabill]

Aww I was so relieved I could shoot them down if I ever got a clear aim at them, thought it was better to have them suppress and hide to support the real alien firepower.

They actually seem to be really good at doing that. I did a terror mission earlier where I had two drones doing some fairly good skirmishing and they were a bit of a pain to corner and kill without leaving my soldiers exposed to a counter-attack.

[KevinHann]

I guess I'll just have to pack another Rocketeer in the team then.

[Chris]

I like the way the Light Drones are working at the moment, yeah. They're pretty annoying, which is how they should be.

I'm not entirely sure psionics are working as they should be early game, either. GJ and I are looking into that at the moment.

I am also continuing to do a lot of work on the balance and am expecting to put a new build out tomorrow with a slightly smoother difficulty curve. Caesans are also getting an accuracy buff and Sebillians are getting a nerf to their HP scaling and suppression resistance. Even well-equipped troops struggle to deal with multiple Sebillians because they're hard as nails AND can regenerate AND can see through smoke AND are really hard to suppress.

[Caaygun]

They also have an annoying tendency to two-shot unsuspecting soldiers with potshot bursts from beyond the LoS.

[KevinHann]

I like the way the Light Drones are working at the moment, yeah. They're pretty annoying, which is how they should be.

I hope Medium Drones and the final ones are also getting some sort of a buff or characteristic role as it was always the Light Drones that made an impression on me and the others were never ever a particular problem.

Caesans are also getting an accuracy buff and Sebillians are getting a nerf to their HP scaling and suppression resistance. Even well-equipped troops struggle to deal with multiple Sebillians because they're hard as nails AND can regenerate AND can see through smoke AND are really hard to suppress.

Sebillians seem on track to becoming the game's trademark enemy. I cannot but raise the question if the aliens you engage at a later stage such as Harridans and especially Wraiths pose greater challenge and threat than the Lizards from Space. I sincerely hope they do and stand on their own as what is supposed to be the elite troops of the invading army!

[ventuswings]

In fact, maybe move the "ignore smoke" quirk from Sebilians to other mid-game enemies like Harridans? Either Xenopedia entry should be changed to inform player about this whatever you decide!

Having Harridan jetpack fixed would also definitely make them stand out and make them pose greater challenge, hope it can get done.

Edited May 26, 2014 by ventuswings

[kabill]

In fact, maybe move the "ignore smoke" quirk from Sebilians to mid-game enemies like robotic Androns (though they are supposed to be the original 'tough as nails' race due to their high HP plus high armor value)?

Having Harridan jetpack fixed would also definitely make them stand out and make them pose greater challenge, hope it can get done.

Agree about the see-through-smoke ability. Sebillians could easily stand to lose it since they have so many other things going for them.

Harridans actually would be my choice, partly because they lack a lot of flavour compared with the other races and partly because it will complement their strong accuracy. Having them as really dominant snipers who can only be negated through avoiding LoS feels fitting, to me.

EDIT: I see you beat me to it with your edit!

[Max_Caine]

I don't know if people are aware, but Harridans do have a +2 tile sight advantage as one of their racial characteristics. No-one else has that.

[Gauddlike]

Pity they can't also fire while in the air to really make them stand out.

[KevinHann]

I don't know if people are aware, but Harridans do have a +2 tile sight advantage as one of their racial characteristics. No-one else has that.

I'm still unimpressed. It doesn't visibly make then a more dreaded version than the lower tier aliens, nor especially hard to take out. Harridans never ever stood out for me in 21 Stable. Perhaps the changes and AI boost later on would make it different but from what I see in discussions absolutely no one is talking about higher tier units like Harridans, Wraiths, bigger Drones. Sounds like they don't leave much of an impression.

Hope I'm wrong!

[Solver]

Well, Harridans used to insta-kill anything regardless of cover with hypervelocity rounds. And Wraiths used to arbitrarily kill anyone by teleporting in front of them and unloading.

[Max_Caine]

We've come a long way since then. TBH the support races need more face time, IMO.

[kabill]

TBH the support races need more face time, IMO.

Recent builds have had higher ranking aliens moved forward by a UFO type, but that's not happened with Harridans and Wraiths. Perhaps that would be a good idea?

[KevinHann]

Recent builds have had higher ranking aliens moved forward by a UFO type, but that's not happened with Harridans and Wraiths. Perhaps that would be a good idea?

Correct me if it's different on your version, but I really feel the difference when I face a Sebillian Leader; when I see a higher ranking Harridan or Wraith I couldn't care less, they feel about the same level of threat/difficulty to dispose.

The only alien units to stand out for me at all are Sebillians, Light Drones and perhaps the psi Ceasans. All the rest feel a bit like more material to shoot at/be careful not to end up in direct line of fire.

I'm hopeful you guys will just come out and tell me it's much, much different in the experimental builds. I could live with some bothersome bugs if all the aliens or at least most of them are upgraded into something characteristic and memorable.

[kabill]

Hm, that sounds more or less like my experience.

Sebillians and Androns are the two main 'flavoursome' species for me. Even though they overlap a lot (they're both 'tough' races), they still manage to feel different. For Sebillians, its a combination of their regeneration and ability to see through smoke which makes the difference, since you need to concentrate firepower to make sure they go down and it's not possible to negate them using smoke. For Androns, it's mainly their suppression immunity that makes a difference for me, since it means you can't negate them with suppression which is a key tactic in UFO assaults.

In comparison, Caesans and Harridans don't really do anything for me. Caesans have actually been a bit better in the latest build, but that's mainly due to their AI which seems especially good at exploiting hiding places at the moment*. Hopefully, come final release, psionics will be working as well, so I've got some hope for Caesans (and, as others have argued elsewhere, having a mook race isn't necessarily a bad thing).

But Harridans continue to lack character for me. It doesn't help that their key feature - flight - hasn't been implemented yet. But as they are at the moment, they feel just like Caesans. And even with flight, I'm not sure that's going to change very much since I don't see flight giving them much of an advantage. So I think it would be nice to see them with something extra - maybe some armour to simulate their armour! Or seeing through smoke - so that they stand out a bit more.

(I'm leaving aside Wraiths, as I've practically never gotten to fight them. And Reapers, but they're awesome and so much more terrifying than their equivalents in other X-Com games)

* Had an excellent moment the other say where I brought a soldier around the corner of a small shed. So used to aliens being out in the open, I was supremely confident that there wouldn't be anything in the shed waiting to shoot my soldier. A plasma blast later, and the soldier is a corpse on the floor. No other outcome was more deserved!

[Solver]

Could Harridans be made immune to fire damage, and to gas? This could work nicely with their whole enclosed-armor-suit thing.

Wraiths could become interesting with some extra AI work for them. Give them a preferred strategy of hit-and-run. So that they prefer to shoot first and then teleport to safety, instead of firing another shot. This would give them quite a unique role, although I could see them becoming annoying to hunt down.

On a somewhat related notice, I wouldn't mind higher-level races occasionally showing up in a smaller ship, just like the original game, where Ethereals would sometimes run a mission in a large scout.

[Max_Caine]

Harridans do have chemical damage type armour, so they're protected from stun gas.

[KevinHann]

I did forget about Androns, sorry. They do feel different even on 21 stable. Given the AI has surely improved they should be alright.

This idea about Wraiths shooting then teleporting to safety sounds interesting. I've never been forced to hunt down an alien to the point it becomes annoying, never! So something in that direction would be refreshing variety rather than bothersome inconvenience. My experience with them is... well, they teleport around my team and I just shoot them down next turn. Heavily disappointing!

I don't quite see how Harridan immunity to fire damage and gas is going to improve them significantly (mainly because I simply am past using those by the point I encounter them). Flying would establish them as something unique but unless the AI makes more of it that I can of Sentinel armor it wouldn't be enough to put them on par with the top dogs (lizards) of the game.

Of course we should consider they usually complement another race so it's important how they function in combination with someone else's skillset.

[Solver]

True, immunity to fire for Harridans would be mostly cosmetic, and I've already been corrected that they are in fact immune to gas. Flying is certainly something that makes them stand out, but I can't see that being much of an advantage. Shooting isn't allowed when flying, and most maps don't really provide good high-ground vantage points.

[KevinHann]

Is it possible that a specific map pack would give Harridans (or your flying troops) significant advantage? Like a couple of key spots you'd fight to occupy strategically? Or the elevated floor combat mechanics would obstruct this from happening even if it is physically there?

Although I guess just putting these in and having Harridans able to fly wouldn't be enough, it would probably also need specific AI.

[Gijs-Jan]

As Skitso's inbox is full: (He PM'ed me on the Harridans / upper floors & Alien Morale)

Actually, I've been working full time the past week on Harridan flying & upper floor behavior.

From the AI perspective it's all finished now, however it unveiled a whole host of new bugs we are currently dealing with.

(Harridan hover glow animation not finishing, funky LOS bugs for lower -> upper floors, etc)

Alien Morale is more the gamelogic side of things, and the current AI should pick it up once integrated.

I'm not sure on whether it'll make it in before the game is released.

[llunak]

Alien Morale is more the gamelogic side of things, and the current AI should pick it up once integrated.

I'm not sure on whether it'll make it in before the game is released.

If this makes it in, could you please check that this doesn't make aliens too susceptible to "perfect" ground missions? What really annoyed me in the OG on Superhuman difficulty was that I almost never had to fight leaders, since when I finally got to them, I first had to kill so many alien soldiers that all leaders had freaked out by that time, dropped their weapons, started running around aimlessly and it was like shooting harmless puppies.

And, thinking of it, I'd frankly prefer if aliens didn't suffer from morale problems. According to e.g. the alien interrogation Xenopedia article, they're not afraid to die, so what morale problems should they have anyway?

[KevinHann]

If this makes it in, could you please check that this doesn't make aliens too susceptible to "perfect" ground missions? What really annoyed me in the OG on Superhuman difficulty was that I almost never had to fight leaders, since when I finally got to them, I first had to kill so many alien soldiers that all leaders had freaked out by that time, dropped their weapons, started running around aimlessly and it was like shooting harmless puppies.

And, thinking of it, I'd frankly prefer if aliens didn't suffer from morale problems. According to e.g. the alien interrogation Xenopedia article, they're not afraid to die, so what morale problems should they have anyway?

I second this, it would be disappointing if the last aliens on the map were the easiest to kill due to panic.

[ventuswings]

I kept arguing alien morale conflicts with the lore and does not add much to the game, but some group of people seem to want it for some reason... Considering there's only days left before the release, I'd personally appreciate it if they focused their efforts on other projects but I'm sure they have far better work schedule than my cursory suggestion.