Ground Combat Balance - V21 Stable Candidate

[Gauddlike]

There have been suggestion posted on how to test it.

The devs have tested it and found no problems, some forum members have tested it and found no problems.

You suggest you miss 5 times in a row every other mission but how many shots have you fired in those two missions?

How many of those shots hit?

How many times do you not miss 5 times in a row?

What was the range and average of the rng rolls to hit?

Were all of those shots at 95% accuracy or were some lower?

Is this on the same tileset or with the same cover in use?

Without data it is just assumption.

It may be a correct assumption but as it has already been tested several times and no error found more data is what is needed.

I would suggest saving the game each turn until you notice this problem again.

Then if you share the save others might test it for you.

If you want to test it yourself then once you have this save you could set the weapon in question to 1AP per shot with 1 damage and run the debugger.

Make a note of the roll to hit each time, for at least 50 attempts, more is better.

Note specifically any issues where the rng should be a hit but the shot is a miss and so on.

[Chris]

Yeah, if you're convinced something is wrong then it's best to use the debugger and try and work out what it is. That'll tell you what the random rolls are and the other parts of the calculation and it's simple enough to use.

Without wanting to sound dismissive, we've looked at the problem and can't see anything wrong...so until someone can show us evidence there is something wrong, I'm more inclined to believe it's perception than anything else. I seem to recall the Firaxis XCOM was accused of the same thing.

[Arghy]

Wow just had a reaper take 5 95% shots and goddamn survive, 4 bursts from AR's and 1 sniper shot. This has got to be the worst time ever to do a goddamn terror mission haha, last mission was me encountering grenades for the first time so 80% of the team is wounded so i gotta bring my hunter along!

Somehow my heavy carrying extra ammo gets fucking 1 shotted by a reaction shot FIRST STEP OUT OF THE CHOPPER, he had jackal armor to! There is now 9 sebs and a goddamn disk behind a bus with only my damaged hunter to hold them off while 5 guys tried to kill a reaper and somehow failed. I'm actually glad my shield dudes were wounded because i need more firepower haha, gonna revert to a save before hand and change that single heavy to a goddamn rocketman so i can just blow everyone to hell as my hunter suppresses them.

The hunter def needs more ammo and an autocannon turret acting like an explosion sniper round wouldn't be to bad either. I'd love to be able to bring ammo for the damn thing to, i'd load everyone up with crazy ammo then drop it off at the chopper! I already have 2 ammo slaves who carry enough rounds to kill 100 aliens to mimic the chopper carrying extra ammo haha.

[Selvhan]

I think the bug happen when the alien has been hit once. After that shot, all other snapshot will not hurt the alien. The only way I have found to "fix" that is to autofire and then my 95% to hit will start to wound when they hit.

It happened to me a lot of time so I don't think it's random. What are the chance to miss 10-12 95% shot ? And what are the chance that this situation happen more than once ?

How can I use the debugger ? Because I'm pretty sure It will happen again and I am curious to see what is happening !

[Max_Caine]

Using the debugger

[StellarRat]

Yeah, if you're convinced something is wrong then it's best to use the debugger and try and work out what it is. That'll tell you what the random rolls are and the other parts of the calculation and it's simple enough to use.

Without wanting to sound dismissive, we've looked at the problem and can't see anything wrong...so until someone can show us evidence there is something wrong, I'm more inclined to believe it's perception than anything else. I seem to recall the Firaxis XCOM was accused of the same thing.

It's unfortunate that a log file is not produced for various actions in the game (like shooting) without having to use the debugger then you could just say, "Please send us the log file." I find it difficult to believe that someone could miss 4 95% shots. The odds are 6 in 1 million. We're talking lottery win here. Edited March 25, 2014 by StellarRat

[Chris]

If you're missing twelve 95% shots in a row then something probably is wrong, but we can't reproduce anything like that. Just dumping the debugger output in a text file would give us something to look at though if it happens to you when you're playing. But until we've got some hard evidence to analyse we can't really do much about the problem even if it does exist.

[Arghy]

If its my post all those 5 95% shots hit the thing but it didn't die--it was my first time killing one since i captured my last 3 with sleeping gas. Also the terror attack is taking place in 'DILI' which i assume is a small area of Deli haha.

Is it intended that you can see inside of crashed spaceships? i figured it was intended because my dudes were peaking through bullet holes and such since i had to move them all over the outside of the spaceship to see everything. Its prolly a bug but it should stay! storming a goddamn 2 tile entry way when theres 6 fucking sebs/androns waiting for you is not smart at all.

[StellarRat]

If its my post all those 5 95% shots hit the thing but it didn't die--

I got two different posts mixed up. I've corrected it. The guy was thinking of said, 4 95% shots missed.

Did you actually hit with all three rounds from each AR burst plus one sniper round? Hitting something five times with Level 1 weapons and not killing it is VERY possible. They just don't do that much damage. Hitting a Reaper with 13 rounds of ammo is entirely different. I'd have to lookup the armor, HP, mitigation. etc... to know if that is reasonable.

Edited March 25, 2014 by StellarRat

[Selvhan]

I just failed my 1st terror mission. But there is three things I would like to say about it.

1st, the AI seem to be more intelligent and it seems to work as a team. That's nice to see.

2nd, I previously posted that alien gun need to stop suppressing all the time, well I say it again. I spend the entire terror trying to shoot back but when you are always suppressed, there is nothing much you can do. One of my soldier got suppressed 7 or 8 tiles away from the impact... that's really too much.

3rd, armour. Is it normal that light plasma rifle one shot most of the time my guy wearing wolf battle armour ? ( Veteran )

[lifehole]

I swear I've had more than 3 95% shots miss before. It seems situational, with all shots from a certain angle/pointblank range. e.g I have a man with a pistol pointblank range with snapshot with enough ap for like 2-4 shots, miss all of them. Then other soldier comes from side at one tile away and bursts and kills. It is possible that it is as the previous guy said that all shots after one will not work.

I don't use the debugger (but will from now on, just have to avoid hitting v, I guess.) and I've played basically all other xcom games/remakes extensively and never got weird stuff like that. It is MOSTLY at pointblank and usually always in the same turn.

[TacticalDragon]

I swear I've had more than 3 95% shots miss before. It seems situational, with all shots from a certain angle/pointblank range. e.g I have a man with a pistol pointblank range with snapshot with enough ap for like 2-4 shots, miss all of them. Then other soldier comes from side at one tile away and bursts and kills. It is possible that it is as the previous guy said that all shots after one will not work.

I don't use the debugger (but will from now on, just have to avoid hitting v, I guess.) and I've played basically all other xcom games/remakes extensively and never got weird stuff like that. It is MOSTLY at pointblank and usually always in the same turn.

I think that the own engine has problems calculating % of hit, I probe that the hit probability showed don't follow the % number.

[Arghy]

Yeah i hit the reaper with 4 AR bursts from point blank range and that fucker was still walking--not even going to try to kill them since stun nades work so well against them and they like to try and run through the clouds haha. This is why AR's should be able to do a larger mag dump, a 6-8 round burst for about 80% of your TU's sounds balanced.

[Skitso]

Tbh, this posts really should be on the other thread. However! Lidhuin, lifehole, I refer you to Skitso's concerns regarding the same thing, and his opinion after using the debugger. If you feel that the dice are rigged, then you need to test it strictly to remove all subjective bias.

Yes, I had an extended run with the debugger and my conclusion is that:

A. First few tiers of aliens have quite a bad accuracy -> missing shots even from close.

B. Missed shots from close always scatter to the same tile the target is standing -> the feeling of "that should have hit!"

These two combined gives at least for me the feeling there's something wrong even if there isn't. I've analyzed at least 100 shots and I'm now pretty sure there's nothing wrong with hit calculations. If GH manages to improve missed shots' scatter (at least it's on their "to do" list), then this is all good.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Skitso

[Arghy]

Wow did my first terror mission! hahaha YOU DID NOT BRING ENOUGH AMMO, TRUST ME. I had every single guy overloaded with ammo that i dropped to the ground once the mission began and i used so much ammo i had to scrounge corpses for guns and ammo. Stun gas is an excellent defense and i suggest bringing nothing but stun rockets and grenades though keep everyone with atleast 1 standard grenade because holy shit it will save your ass against disks! I had to shoot and scoot with my hunter because holy crap it cant hit anything if there is a single piece of cover in the way and it fucking blows up if a seb guard looks at it.

What i feel after doing that mission,

- sebs should not regen to full after they take damage, they should have a lower cap of total hps every time they take dmg

- drop ships need ammo bins!

- can we get an actual grenade launcher that has twice the throwing range?

- vehicles are incredibly anemic, out of 5 save scrums 3 times i lost my hunter in a single salvo

- civs running towards your drop ship and aliens chasing them would speed the game up and save you 20 minutes of 'find the last seb'

I then had an aerial terror attack in the middle of no where and none of my planes had range--you should get an option to pay for your interceptors to refuel in a country and extend their range. Its quite silly to be forced to settup multiple bases so you have range to cover every inch of the globe. Why the hell is aussyland its separate little area? i totally thought it was apart of asia then i realized, oh i need to build a base down there where it will most likely do nothing at all!

In flight refueling or using another country to refuel would stop the need to have bases all over the place at the cost of radar coverage and planes being on a long mission. I'd also love to see local forces shooting down scout ships then asking me if i'd like to assault the crashed ship so i can really use that drop ship range.

[Selvhan]

Being able to bring more stuff in your dropship would be very nice and very useful.

[Gauddlike]

It has also been suggested many times and ruled out by the devs just as often.

[lifehole]

The debugger is saying I am hitting, but there is no 'grunt/buzz' or movement from the alien, and no apparant damage? I just "missed" 3 95% shots and one 88%, even though the debugger says hit shot.

00047042	51280.48828125	[408] AI turn took 43.750000 sec	00047043	51285.28125000	[408] UpdateTilesLitMap(TRect) took 0.000000 sec, processed 12 objs	00047044	51285.28906250	[408] ICharacter::SetLOSFOW() took 0.000000 sec.	00047045	51285.30078125	[408] >>> Begin calc. projectile trajectory <<<	00047046	51285.30078125	[408] Target tile = (13, 6)	00047047	51285.30078125	[408] Unmodified accuracy calculation:	00047048	51285.30078125	[408]   range penalty (1.000000) = 1 - ( max(0, dist. to target (3.605551) - weapon range (10)) / weapon range (10) )	00047049	51285.30078125	[408]   shoot accuracy from props: 0.930000	00047050	51285.30078125	[408]   shoot accuracy (1.000000) = shoot accuracy (0.930000) * kneeling boost (1.200000)	00047051	51285.30078125	[408]   shoot accuracy (1.000000) = shoot accuracy (1.000000) - max(0, weapon recoil (0) / 100 - strength (0.740000) )	00047052	51285.30078125	[408]   weaponAccuracy (81.000000) = weaponAccuracy (65.000000) * accuracyModifier (1.250000)	00047053	51285.30468750	[408]   unmodified accuracy (81.000000) = shoot accuracy (1.000000) * range penalty (1.000000) * weapon accuracy (81.000000)	00047054	51285.30468750	[408] Damage for unit:	00047055	51285.30468750	[408]   damage mul. (1.000000) = ( weapon range (10) / max(weapon range (10), dist. to target (3.605551)) ) * difficult mul. (1.000000) * ai race damage bonus (1.000000)	00047056	51285.30468750	[408]   normal damage (48) = weapon damage (45) * random bonus/penalty (1.080000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047057	51285.30468750	[408]   stun damage (0) = weapon stun damage (0) * random bonus/penalty (1.160000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047058	51285.30468750	[408]   emp damage (0) = weapon emp damage (0) * random bonus/penalty (0.730000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047059	51285.30468750	[408] Terrain bullet score:	00047060	51285.30468750	[408]   terrain bullet score = 1.000000	00047061	51285.30468750	[408] short range hit bonus (28.733) = (5 - dist. to target (3.606) + 1) * short range hit bonus per tile (12)	00047062	51285.30468750	[408] chanceToHitTargetTile (93.533) = (unitAccuracy (81.000) * crouchingTargetMul (0.800) + shortRangeHitBonus (28.733)) * terrainAccuracy (1.000)	00047063	51285.30468750	[408] Random number (70) is <= chanceToHitTargetTile (93.533) => hit shot	00047064	51285.30859375	[408] >>> End calc. projectile trajectory <<<	00047065	51285.30859375	[408] CTileBasedSceneRenderer::SetNightForAllTiles_Human(TRect) took 0.000000 sec	00047066	51285.30859375	[408] CTileBasedSceneRenderer::SetNightForAllTiles_Human(TRect) took 0.000000 sec	00047067	51285.33593750	[408] UpdateTilesNightMode(TRect) took 0.125000 sec, processed 12 objs.	00047068	51287.01953125	[408] >>> Begin calc. projectile trajectory <<<	00047069	51287.01953125	[408] Target tile = (13, 6)	00047070	51287.01953125	[408] Unmodified accuracy calculation:	00047071	51287.01953125	[408]   range penalty (1.000000) = 1 - ( max(0, dist. to target (3.605551) - weapon range (10)) / weapon range (10) )	00047072	51287.01953125	[408]   shoot accuracy from props: 0.930000	00047073	51287.01953125	[408]   shoot accuracy (1.000000) = shoot accuracy (0.930000) * kneeling boost (1.200000)	00047074	51287.01953125	[408]   shoot accuracy (1.000000) = shoot accuracy (1.000000) - max(0, weapon recoil (0) / 100 - strength (0.740000) )	00047075	51287.01953125	[408]   weaponAccuracy (81.000000) = weaponAccuracy (65.000000) * accuracyModifier (1.250000)	00047076	51287.01953125	[408]   unmodified accuracy (81.000000) = shoot accuracy (1.000000) * range penalty (1.000000) * weapon accuracy (81.000000)	00047077	51287.01953125	[408] Damage for unit:	00047078	51287.01953125	[408]   damage mul. (1.000000) = ( weapon range (10) / max(weapon range (10), dist. to target (3.605551)) ) * difficult mul. (1.000000) * ai race damage bonus (1.000000)	00047079	51287.01953125	[408]   normal damage (50) = weapon damage (45) * random bonus/penalty (1.130000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047080	51287.01953125	[408]   stun damage (0) = weapon stun damage (0) * random bonus/penalty (0.580000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047081	51287.01953125	[408]   emp damage (0) = weapon emp damage (0) * random bonus/penalty (0.970000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047082	51287.01953125	[408] Terrain bullet score:	00047083	51287.01953125	[408]   terrain bullet score = 1.000000	00047084	51287.01953125	[408] short range hit bonus (28.733) = (5 - dist. to target (3.606) + 1) * short range hit bonus per tile (12)	00047085	51287.01953125	[408] chanceToHitTargetTile (93.533) = (unitAccuracy (81.000) * crouchingTargetMul (0.800) + shortRangeHitBonus (28.733)) * terrainAccuracy (1.000)	00047086	51287.01953125	[408] Random number (29) is <= chanceToHitTargetTile (93.533) => hit shot	00047087	51287.01953125	[408] >>> End calc. projectile trajectory <<<	00047088	51294.85937500	[408] >>> Begin calc. projectile trajectory <<<	00047089	51294.85937500	[408] Target tile = (13, 6)	00047090	51294.85937500	[408] Unmodified accuracy calculation:	00047091	51294.85937500	[408]   range penalty (1.000000) = 1 - ( max(0, dist. to target (4.472136) - weapon range (30)) / weapon range (30) )	00047092	51294.85937500	[408]   shoot accuracy from props: 0.880000	00047093	51294.85937500	[408]   shoot accuracy (1.000000) = shoot accuracy (0.880000) * kneeling boost (1.200000)	00047094	51294.85937500	[408]   shoot accuracy (1.000000) = shoot accuracy (1.000000) - max(0, weapon recoil (0) / 100 - strength (0.760000) )	00047095	51294.85937500	[408]   weaponAccuracy (131.000000) = weaponAccuracy (105.000000) * accuracyModifier (1.250000)	00047096	51294.85937500	[408]   unmodified accuracy (131.000000) = shoot accuracy (1.000000) * range penalty (1.000000) * weapon accuracy (131.000000)	00047097	51294.85937500	[408] Damage for unit:	00047098	51294.85937500	[408]   damage mul. (1.000000) = ( weapon range (30) / max(weapon range (30), dist. to target (4.472136)) ) * difficult mul. (1.000000) * ai race damage bonus (1.000000)	00047099	51294.85937500	[408]   normal damage (60) = weapon damage (45) * random bonus/penalty (1.350000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047100	51294.85937500	[408]   stun damage (0) = weapon stun damage (0) * random bonus/penalty (1.110000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047101	51294.85937500	[408]   emp damage (0) = weapon emp damage (0) * random bonus/penalty (1.390000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047102	51294.85937500	[408] Terrain bullet score:	00047103	51294.85937500	[408]   terrain bullet score = 1.000000	00047104	51294.85937500	[408] short range hit bonus (18.334) = (5 - dist. to target (4.472) + 1) * short range hit bonus per tile (12)	00047105	51294.85937500	[408] chanceToHitTargetTile (123.134) = (unitAccuracy (131.000) * crouchingTargetMul (0.800) + shortRangeHitBonus (18.334)) * terrainAccuracy (1.000)	00047106	51294.86328125	[408]   chanceToHitTargetTile > max value => chanceToHitTargetTile = 95.000000	00047107	51294.86328125	[408] Random number (33) is <= chanceToHitTargetTile (95.000) => hit shot	00047108	51294.86328125	[408] >>> End calc. projectile trajectory <<<	00047109	51299.77734375	[408] >>> Begin calc. projectile trajectory <<<	00047110	51299.77734375	[408] Target tile = (13, 6)	00047111	51299.77734375	[408] Unmodified accuracy calculation:	00047112	51299.77734375	[408]   range penalty (1.000000) = 1 - ( max(0, dist. to target (4.472136) - weapon range (30)) / weapon range (30) )	00047113	51299.77734375	[408]   shoot accuracy from props: 0.880000	00047114	51299.77734375	[408]   shoot accuracy (1.000000) = shoot accuracy (0.880000) * kneeling boost (1.200000)	00047115	51299.77734375	[408]   shoot accuracy (1.000000) = shoot accuracy (1.000000) - max(0, weapon recoil (0) / 100 - strength (0.760000) )	00047116	51299.77734375	[408]   weaponAccuracy (81.000000) = weaponAccuracy (65.000000) * accuracyModifier (1.250000)	00047117	51299.77734375	[408]   unmodified accuracy (81.000000) = shoot accuracy (1.000000) * range penalty (1.000000) * weapon accuracy (81.000000)	00047118	51299.77734375	[408] Damage for unit:	00047119	51299.77734375	[408]   damage mul. (1.000000) = ( weapon range (30) / max(weapon range (30), dist. to target (4.472136)) ) * difficult mul. (1.000000) * ai race damage bonus (1.000000)	00047120	51299.77734375	[408]   normal damage (64) = weapon damage (45) * random bonus/penalty (1.430000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047121	51299.77734375	[408]   stun damage (0) = weapon stun damage (0) * random bonus/penalty (0.810000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047122	51299.77734375	[408]   emp damage (0) = weapon emp damage (0) * random bonus/penalty (0.870000) * damage mul. (1.000000)	00047123	51299.77734375	[408] Terrain bullet score:	00047124	51299.77734375	[408]   terrain bullet score = 1.000000	00047125	51299.77734375	[408] short range hit bonus (18.334) = (5 - dist. to target (4.472) + 1) * short range hit bonus per tile (12)	00047126	51299.78125000	[408] chanceToHitTargetTile (83.134) = (unitAccuracy (81.000) * crouchingTargetMul (0.800) + shortRangeHitBonus (18.334)) * terrainAccuracy (1.000)	00047127	51299.78125000	[408] Random number (30) is <= chanceToHitTargetTile (83.134) => hit shot	

All of these shots apparantly hit, but the andron made no noise, no movement, and I don't think it took damage?

Edited March 26, 2014 by lifehole

[Lidhuin]

I think Androns have armour that deflects a certain amount of shots? And it doesn't take "real" damage until then?

[kabill]

The game should report 'resisted' if armour mitigated the shot entirely. (Also, I think the damage numbers in the log are in excess of an Anrdon's armour value.)

[Selvhan]

It happened to me again with a lot of laser auto fire on a Seb. I decided to not play iron because of this weird situation.

A weird thing happened in my last crash mission. I had a guy in a house ( no window , and the 2 metallic doors were close. ) and he got suppressed because my heavy weapon fired outside the building. I have no clue how this situation can be fixed. Does the sound of the weapon is enough to scare your own teamate from your own weapon ?

[Arghy]

Yeah i've had people get suppressed that were no where near the shots which is why i now move whoever opens the UFO doors as far away as possible.

[Chris]

Are all the people experiencing these ridiculous miss streaks playing on Veteran, and experiencing them against Androns? Remember that "RESISTED" doesn't appear on Veteran, just on Normal.

[Lidhuin]

Is there a reason for resisted not appearing on Veteran? Miss still appears (I think, right? That's my experience), so if it's a hit it's fairly obvious, if it's a miss it's fairly obvious, and if it's neither of those, it is necessarily resisted.

[Selvhan]

It happening to me on any kind of alien. Even with plasma rifles. ( Veteran ).

If the alien would make a move because of the impact but resulting in 0 damage, that would be fine. I would also suggest to simply remove the damage indicator. If you miss, it should be written miss, and if you hit, maybe there should be an indicator on where you hit ( even if it's random ). Blood should be the indicator of damage, if any.