Weapon Role Thoughts

[Ol' Stinky]

I think the range restrictions are fine. It's really a close range weapon. 50 yards is about the furthest you can reliably use one.

A shotgun requiring soldiers to be a few tiles away might be realisitic for all I know. I've never used one in real life and I doubt I ever will. It's a weapon's combat effectiveness that gets them moved out of the base's inventory, though, not their realism factor.

[vaultdweller]

Yeah, and it's that much more satisfying when you manage to get up close with a shotty. I just wish there were original fall out style death animations!

I always wish for more Fallout-style death animations in games, but I may biased.

A shotgun requiring soldiers to be a few tiles away might be realisitic for all I know. I've never used one in real life and I doubt I ever will. It's a weapon's combat effectiveness that gets them moved out of the base's inventory' date=' though, not their realism factor.[/quote']

I'm fine with shotguns being ineffective in open terrain, so long as they have enough range to be effective in interiors. When I play a game, I assume until shown otherwise that shotguns are a prime choice for close-quarters combat and ineffective elsewhere. In Xenonauts, I would expect shotgun weapons to be a prime choice for close-quarters combat, enough to justify bringing extra shotguns for base assaults and to make them my point men when breaching UFOs.

[Max_Caine]

If anyone watched my "How I crack alien bases" videos, you'd see that I deliberately equipped some soliders with both shotties and rifles. In a close-in environment i.e. UFOs and bases, shotties and pistols are worth their weight in gold, especially when breaching successive rooms (as you do with every capital ship). That x2 reaction modifier is insanely good, and both weapons do have their role. However, I'd never use a shottie outside of a close-quarters fight. Nu-uh. I'd rather have a pistoleer and a shield.

[KateMicucci]

I think the range restrictions are fine. It's really a close range weapon. 50 yards is about the furthest you can reliably use one.

It should be able to reliably hit an alien who's only standing on the other side of the room. Shotguns rely too heavily on close range bonuses which means walking right up to the alien's face.

To be clear I don't want the range of the shotgun extended, just a small accuracy improvement.

[legit1337]

I think the range restrictions are fine. It's really a close range weapon. 50 yards is about the furthest you can reliably use one.

Depends on the ammo you are using. Birdshot, yeah you aren't going to hit crap past 50 yards. Buckshot can go a bit further then that.

Slugs however can be accurate at up to 150 yards.

I think the shotgun should be reasonably accurate at up to 10 tiles. Past that it's accuracy should go down the toilet.

[Chris]

Nah, a shotgunner only really requires decent TU and maybe reasonable HP / RFL (though the latter is boosted by the 2x reflex bonus). It's a low-accuracy weapon so having mediocre accuracy doesn't matter so much as with other weapons.

Even a 40 accuracy soldier will have 70% to hit from a normal shot on an adjacent tile, and that means two of the three pellets hit...each doing almost as much damage as a successful AR shot. I guess it's an "advanced" weapon, but I think it's still pretty good.

[legit1337]

Nah, a shotgunner only really requires decent TU and maybe reasonable HP / RFL (though the latter is boosted by the 2x reflex bonus). It's a low-accuracy weapon so having mediocre accuracy doesn't matter so much as with other weapons.

Even a 40 accuracy soldier will have 70% to hit from a normal shot on an adjacent tile, and that means two of the three pellets hit...each doing almost as much damage as a successful AR shot. I guess it's an "advanced" weapon, but I think it's still pretty good.

Adjacent tiles don't happen very often. Most "close range" combat happens from 3-10 tiles. IMO a point blank shotgun blast should have a good chance of dropping even a seb. Two assault rifle shots isn't enough to do that I think...

Also, does the -50% to +50% damage range apply per pellet? IMO that makes a shotguns damage too random.

Edited March 7, 2014 by legit1337

[Chris]

Well, adjacent tiles will happen if you want them to happen. You just have to play a bit differently.

[kabill]

Also, does the -50% to +50% damage range apply per pellet? IMO that makes a shotguns damage too random.

That's actually not true. The more rolls you have, the more they will tend towards the middle and therefore the *less* random the results will be.

Simple example: rolling a 12-sided die gives you an even chance of rolling any single number, while rolling 2 six-sided dice will tend towards producing numbers in the middle of the range (6, 7, or 8) while extreme scores (2, 3, 11 and 12) will be much less frequent.

It's actually one of the strengths of the shotgun in Xenonauts at the moment that you're much less likely to get screwed by an unlucky low roll because of the multiple pellets.

(All this assumes all three pellets hit, of course!).

Edited March 7, 2014 by kabill

[Lidhuin]

It's the accuracy that turns me off' date=' with x0.3 for a snap shot and x0.55 for a normal. (Unless I've mucked up the install and am looking at the wrong file. It wouldn't be the first time I've done that.) I feel that having to get to 8 tiles is a pretty big requirement on its own, and accuracy could afford to be a bit higher to reflect that. Closing the distance and getting to do around the same damage as an assault rifle shot feels naff.

Stat-wise, a shotgunner needs good TUs, good accuracy and good reflexes, which is more demanding than what an LMGer needs (strength, acc), or an AR guy needs (TUs, acc). I don't know how much of a concern that is, but I figure it's something worth mentioning, too.[/quote']

The alternative patch has it so that snap shot is x0.25, allowing four shots in a turn with snap shot if you don't move at all. I feel that works pretty good (although so many alien shots, the pain).

I should also point out that a good LMGer only really needs strength to avoid getting bogged down. Accuracy is optional with that many shots.

[legit1337]

That's actually not true. The more rolls you have, the more they will tend towards the middle and therefore the *less* random the results will be.

Simple example: rolling a 12-sided die gives you an even chance of rolling any single number, while rolling 2 six-sided dice will tend towards producing numbers in the middle of the range (6, 7, or 8) while extreme scores (2, 3, 11 and 12) will be much less frequent.

It's actually one of the strengths of the shotgun in Xenonauts at the moment that you're much less likely to get screwed by an unlucky low roll because of the multiple pellets.

(All this assumes all three pellets hit, of course!).

Yes this is true. It is more likely to stay toward the middle of it's damage range. But it also means the disparity between a low damage shot and a high damage shot is higher. Consider the shotgun's total damage, now consider if it gets -50% on all three rolls. Or +50% on all three rolls. Yes, the damage has a weighted chance of staying toward the middle, but I am arguing that the ranges between the extremes is too much.

[Ol' Stinky]

Nah, a shotgunner only really requires decent TU and maybe reasonable HP / RFL (though the latter is boosted by the 2x reflex bonus). It's a low-accuracy weapon so having mediocre accuracy doesn't matter so much as with other weapons.

Even a 40 accuracy soldier will have 70% to hit from a normal shot on an adjacent tile, and that means two of the three pellets hit...each doing almost as much damage as a successful AR shot. I guess it's an "advanced" weapon, but I think it's still pretty good.

At the end of the day, I guess it depends on what you want close range/mid range to be. I'm with Legit in feeling that up to ~10 squares away is "close quarters" (just in a general sense, I'm fine with shotguns having 8 range). I don't like getting very close (under 5 tiles) due to the extreme risks involved if I miscalculate the situation - maybe my cautiousness is why I value ACC/RFL on assaults. Even with the x2 RFL bonus, I'm paranoid about losing the initiative or failing an important accuracy roll.

The alternative patch has it so that snap shot is x0.25, allowing four shots in a turn with snap shot if you don't move at all. I feel that works pretty good (although so many alien shots, the pain).

I should also point out that a good LMGer only really needs strength to avoid getting bogged down. Accuracy is optional with that many shots.

The x0.3/x0.55 I mentioned were the accuracy modifiers for snap/normal, not the TU costs. Sorry for the confusion, I should have made that clearer in my original post.

I'll concede the point about LMGs. (:

[kabill]

Yes this is true. It is more likely to stay toward the middle of it's damage range. But it also means the disparity between a low damage shot and a high damage shot is higher. Consider the shotgun's total damage, now consider if it gets -50% on all three rolls. Or +50% on all three rolls. Yes, the damage has a weighted chance of staying toward the middle, but I am arguing that the ranges between the extremes is too much.

The disparity is higher relative to a weaker weapon, but exactly the same for a weapon of equivalent damage.

I.e. if a shotgun does 25 damage per pellet base, then it has exactly the same range of damage as a 75 base damage weapon:

The lowest damage a pellet can do is 25*0.5 = 12.5.

So the lowest damage a shotgun can do (ignoring rounding) is 12.5+12.5+12.5 = 37.5

The highest damage a pellet can do is 25*1.5 = 37.5.

So the highest damage a shotgun can do is 37.5+37.5+37.5 = 112.5

Whereas a 75 damage weapon does 75*0.5 = 37.5 damage minimum and 75*1.5 = 112.5 damage maximum.

The range therefore is exactly the same. Whether or not that range is 'too extreme' is a fair discussion, but you're not talking specifically about shotguns but about the damage range for all weapons.

[Gauddlike]

If each pellet is rolled separately though then wouldn't that mean those extremes are less likely than with a single shot weapon?

You would need to roll -50% three times rather than once to achieve the worst damage and roll +50% three times instead of once to achieve the highest damage.

That seems to make the shotgun pellets sit more reliably in the middle of the damage range than a single bullet with the same total damage.

My maths isn't fantastic though so I could be wrong

Overall I like the suggested roles and they seem to make sense.

[kabill]

If each pellet is rolled separately though then wouldn't that mean those extremes are less likely than with a single shot weapon?

You would need to roll -50% three times rather than once to achieve the worst damage and roll +50% three times instead of once to achieve the highest damage.

That seems to make the shotgun pellets sit more reliably in the middle of the damage range than a single bullet with the same total damage.

My maths isn't fantastic though so I could be wrong

No, you're right. This was my original point!

[Gauddlike]

Ah good, guess I just lost track of the thread for a bit

[Skitso]

I'm returning a bit into the hot topic of LMG balance: While I enjoy the new 10 bullet burst in theory, it doesn't represent machinegun fire that well since you can select just one target and empty half of your belt in that tile.

With a LMG and half a belt, a soldier should easily cover a much larger area and hit multiple targets. This is why the burst should cost 50%TU's and have only 5 bullets each.

This way we could either shoot 5 bullet burst or use a full turn to fire half a belt (10 bullets) up to 2 different targets.

I would also maybe lower accuracy to further widen the spread and also buff the damage a bit.

EDIT: Or should LMG's targetting reticle be like a grenade aiming so that you select an area rather than one target? Then I could handle the 10 bullet burst.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Skitso

[legit1337]

The disparity is higher relative to a weaker weapon, but exactly the same for a weapon of equivalent damage.

I.e. if a shotgun does 25 damage per pellet base, then it has exactly the same range of damage as a 75 base damage weapon:

The lowest damage a pellet can do is 25*0.5 = 12.5.

So the lowest damage a shotgun can do (ignoring rounding) is 12.5+12.5+12.5 = 37.5

The highest damage a pellet can do is 25*1.5 = 37.5.

So the highest damage a shotgun can do is 37.5+37.5+37.5 = 112.5

Whereas a 75 damage weapon does 75*0.5 = 37.5 damage minimum and 75*1.5 = 112.5 damage maximum.

The range therefore is exactly the same. Whether or not that range is 'too extreme' is a fair discussion, but you're not talking specifically about shotguns but about the damage range for all weapons.

This would be true if a shotgun's total damage was equivalent to an assault rifle's. It isn't...

Each pellet does equivalent damage to one assault rifle bullet. The higher damage per pellet base, the more the disparity between low and high damages.

Assault rifle base damage - 75

Lowest - 37.5

Highest - 112.5

Difference - 75

Shotgun base damage - 225 (if all pellets hit)

Lowest - 112.5

Highest - 337.5

Difference - 225

Not sure if these numbers are accurate, but they illustrate my point. The difference between the shotguns low and high damages is too much to be reliable. Is the weighting toward the middle enough of a balance for this?

Edited March 8, 2014 by legit1337

[KateMicucci]

How is the damage potential of 3 pellets any different from a burst?

[legit1337]

How is the damage potential of 3 pellets any different from a burst?

It isn't. And that brings up the fact that a burst's damage output may have too wide a range as well.

[kabill]

This would be true if a shotgun's total damage was equivalent to an assault rifle's. It isn't...

Each pellet does equivalent damage to one assault rifle bullet. The higher damage per pellet base, the more the disparity between low and high damages.

Assault rifle base damage - 75

Lowest - 37.5

Highest - 112.5

Difference - 75

Shotgun base damage - 225 (if all pellets hit)

Lowest - 112.5

Highest - 337.5

Difference - 225

Not sure if these numbers are accurate, but they illustrate my point. The difference between the shotguns low and high damages is too much to be reliable. Is the weighting toward the middle enough of a balance for this?

Sorry, I think we've bee arguing about different things. I thought you were suggesting there's something specific about multiple hits which produces a larger variation in damage. This is true, but only because the higher the damage, the larger the absolute range will be.

Your problem, then, seems to be with the 50-150% damage range rather than shotgun-weapons specifically. Which is fine, just not at all what I thought you were suggesting.

[legit1337]

Sorry, I think we've bee arguing about different things. I thought you were suggesting there's something specific about multiple hits which produces a larger variation in damage. This is true, but only because the higher the damage, the larger the absolute range will be.

Your problem, then, seems to be with the 50-150% damage range rather than shotgun-weapons specifically. Which is fine, just not at all what I thought you were suggesting.

Correct.

My problem isn't with the 50-150 model for single shot weapons, but on the spiky, random amounts of damage from weapons that have a high base damage output (like shotguns).

Edited March 9, 2014 by legit1337

[Chris]

But the 50 - 150% damage variance affects all weapons equally, right? Because you still have to do a fixed amount of damage to kill each alien.

So shooting the same alien three times with an AR would have exactly the same chance the alien not being killed as with three pellets from a shotgun blast (assuming everything hits)...you'd just spend more TU doing so with the AR.

The variance is actually most likely to cause you major problems on high-damage single shot weapons like the rocket launcher.

[Chris]

The real argument against variance with shotguns is that if a shotgunner gets a bad variance roll and his target survives, that usually leaves him standing face-to-face with an alien and unlikely to survive the alien turn.

[kabill]

The real argument against variance with shotguns is that if a shotgunner gets a bad variance roll and his target survives, that usually leaves him standing face-to-face with an alien and unlikely to survive the alien turn.

Yeah, I think that was the point (which I totally missed at first!).

In practice, though, I've not seen this happen often with shotgun weapons. Personally, I think they do what they do quite well at the moment.