Chris Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Maybe the accuracy needs a bit more of a nerf then. I'll have a play with it and see if it's worth knocking another 5% - 10% off the accuracy. I do quite like the large bursts if I'm honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Maybe the accuracy needs a bit more of a nerf then. I'll have a play with it and see if it's worth knocking another 5% - 10% off the accuracy. I do quite like the large bursts if I'm honest.I like the longer burst just fine now that we get thirty rounds. As far as accuracy, if you're smart enough to put the MG in the hands of the right soldier it does seem slight OP, but in hands of a weaker soldier it's definitely inaccurate enough. My suggestion is raise the recoil a little more instead of nerfing the final accuracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ol' Stinky Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 I like the longer burst just fine now that we get thirty rounds. As far as accuracy, if you're smart enough to put the MG in the hands of the right soldier it does seem slight OP, but in hands of a weaker soldier it's definitely inaccurate enough. My suggestion is raise the recoil a little more instead of nerfing the final accuracy. Yeah, although I've always liked the effect of 10 bullet bursts. (I still think 6 pellet shotguns look better than 3 pellet shotguns as well. Just sayin'.) Ramp up the recoil some more and if that fails, make the penalty more severe. It seems fitting that STR is key to using an LMG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legit1337 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 (edited) I like how when I suggested the MG get an accuracy nerf 3 weeks back to balance the 10 round bursts, the loss of heavy weapon penalty, and possibly an increased mag size everyone shouted me down. But now when I've dropped it it is suddenly going forward almost exactly how I proposed it. My opinions:I know you want to keep endgame LMGs from being totally broken with predator armor but 20 round magazines on them totally break immersion. If you need to balance it nerf something else about it (suggestion: accuracy). They don't have to be totally inaccurate bullet hoses but it should be possible to miss every round in the burst. This^ plus other posts in a thread that I can't find. Right so my ideas are dumb and won't work, right up until they are implemented, at which point they are genius balancing decisions that someone else came up with. I don't care about credit, I just find it odd that when I make the proposal it is totally wrong just because I happen to be the one making it. Edited March 19, 2014 by legit1337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arghy Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Is there any plan to flesh out the current weapon selection atleast visually or will the current weapon selection be there for launch? The game would be infinitely more replayable if you'd have warsaw/NATO weapons/vehicles with some other options sprinkled in there. They dont even have to be unique either, you could have 5 different precision rifles with different characteristics but all equaling the same gun. I'd love to see SMG's make an appearance as that line between pistols/shotguns and some variety in the rifle class with something like the CTME/FAL for more long range work and some AKU/M4's as your lighter variants of your standard AR's. I realize that mods will likely fill this role but if there is enough demand theres no reason to incorporate atleast a few ingame so you dont have people installing mods on day 1. There is so much room for tactical min/maxing in the gameplay so a rifle thats lighter but less accurate or an automatic pistol would change up gameplay so much. You can even add a future bounce to everything but saying their rechambered for a unified cartridge. Encase you needed some ideas this is a great website to get actual stats of the guns, http://world.guns.ru/index-e.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ol' Stinky Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I like how when I suggested the MG get an accuracy nerf 3 weeks back to balance the 10 round bursts, the loss of heavy weapon penalty, and possibly an increased mag size everyone shouted me down. But now when I've dropped it it is suddenly going forward almost exactly how I proposed it.This^ plus other posts in a thread that I can't find. Right so my ideas are dumb and won't work, right up until they are implemented, at which point they are genius balancing decisions that someone else came up with. I don't care about credit, I just find it odd that when I make the proposal it is totally wrong just because I happen to be the one making it. No-one thinks your proposals are wrong because you're making them. Please don't take the discussions here personally, because there will be times that people disagree with you. Is there any plan to flesh out the current weapon selection atleast visually or will the current weapon selection be there for launch? The game would be infinitely more replayable if you'd have warsaw/NATO weapons/vehicles with some other options sprinkled in there. They dont even have to be unique either, you could have 5 different precision rifles with different characteristics but all equaling the same gun.I'd love to see SMG's make an appearance as that line between pistols/shotguns and some variety in the rifle class with something like the CTME/FAL for more long range work and some AKU/M4's as your lighter variants of your standard AR's. I realize that mods will likely fill this role but if there is enough demand theres no reason to incorporate atleast a few ingame so you dont have people installing mods on day 1. There is so much room for tactical min/maxing in the gameplay so a rifle thats lighter but less accurate or an automatic pistol would change up gameplay so much. You can even add a future bounce to everything but saying their rechambered for a unified cartridge. Encase you needed some ideas this is a great website to get actual stats of the guns, http://world.guns.ru/index-e.html There's going to be a Soviet weapon mod (I wonder what other mods will ship with the game? There's an "advanced start" folder in the mod directory) but it's hard enough to balance the weapons we've already got, throwing a whole load of variants in will make it that much harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I find more variants within the set weapon archetypes kind of pointless to be honest. The difference between a weapon that does 25 damage at 18 range and one that does 28 damage at 20 range is pretty much undetectable when playing. You could probably get away with having two of each weapon type, maybe one set up for accuracy and one for damage, but any more than that and it is just picking the weapons for their pretty pictures. For the differences to be worthwhile to me they need to be unrealistically large and then you start encroaching on the other archetypes. For meaningful weapon variants there needs to be a lot of variation possible in how weapons are handled and that is pretty basic. JA2 for example has a lot of variation possible between its weapons and ammunition types so each weapon can be made to feel distinct. That was never in the design specs for Xenonauts though, it was always meant to have distinct weapon tiers and distinct weapon archetypes. I am sure modders will come up with something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arghy Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Having all my soldiers use the same 4 damn guns over and over shooting the same amount of bullets is incredibly dull and the flexibility of their loadouts are really weak. I'd atleast like to see some paratrooper variants of the guns that are lighter so i can better adapt each soldier to whats going on. For instance in my game now i have 8 suits of jackal armor and the attrition rate is getting really high to the point where i have 2 hunters. I'd love to be able to recruit strong newbies then stick them with light weapons and lots of armor to improve their chances but as it is all i can do is try to change around their clips and grenades. I'd love to equip them with AKU/M4's because the difference between the shotgon/pistol and the rifles are friggin huge. The gun difference between tiers is also horrid--advanced weapons are expensive as hell, why not give heavy rifles and LMG's as a stop gap between them? You'd start out with AK74/M16's then as your soldiers got stronger and better you'd move up G3/AK47's then as you begin fleshing out your troops with laser weapons the remaining soliders can use RPK/drug mags. Keep upgrading the ballistic weapons so their not better then the new tiers but their better then the vanilla weapons. Snipers could carry pistols as their backup then upgrade to auto pistols/SMG's and eventually use semi auto rifles to fire faster and more often. Its unrealistic to equip everyone with advanced weapons until your in mid/late game so thats half the game you've been playing with the same boring 4 guns. If they had 15-20 guns to choose from then you might not even want to get the better weapons because you could have perfected your tactics using the huge gun selection and research can cater to this game play with things like improved AP rounds, drum mags and advanced composite guns. The missile launcher also could use some love, keep the current gustav but add in RPG's that are lighter but weaker, LAW's for 1 use missiles, underslung grenade launchers that are light and allow you to shoot grenades for a cheaper TU cost, full blown grenade launchers. They would be balanced by their weight and destructive power--you can already do this with the current gustav so nothings changing but your adding so much more flavor to the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 It is however outside of the design plan of the game so won't happen in the vanilla version. It is a likely path for modders although some of what you mention looks to be impossible due to the way weapons work in Xenonauts. Personally I find it uninteresting to have 15-20 guns with little difference between them but if you have ideas on how to make this into an interesting mod then making a new thread in the modding section would be a good place to get those ideas into one place. There is a definite gap between the shorter range weapons like the shotgun and the assault rifle now, especially at the higher tiers since the original laser+ carbines were changed to be shotguns. I can't remember if Chris said those would be making a comeback though, if so that would be welcome. I would prefer to just balance the costs of weapons rather than add new tiers in between. If tier 2 weapons are too expensive to be able to equip your squad with then the problem is likely to be that they are too expensive, not that a new tier 1.5 is required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 I like how when I suggested the MG get an accuracy nerf 3 weeks back to balance the 10 round bursts, the loss of heavy weapon penalty, and possibly an increased mag size everyone shouted me down. But now when I've dropped it it is suddenly going forward almost exactly how I proposed it.This^ plus other posts in a thread that I can't find. Right so my ideas are dumb and won't work, right up until they are implemented, at which point they are genius balancing decisions that someone else came up with. I don't care about credit, I just find it odd that when I make the proposal it is totally wrong just because I happen to be the one making it. Your arguments were based pretty much entirely round the MG's needing to be changed for realism purposes, though, whereas other people have made arguments that the MG's need to be changed for gameplay balance purposes, so the purpose of the changes are different. I'm much more likely to make large changes to a weapon to correct perceived balance issues than perceived realism issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 Is there any plan to flesh out the current weapon selection atleast visually or will the current weapon selection be there for launch? The game would be infinitely more replayable if you'd have warsaw/NATO weapons/vehicles with some other options sprinkled in there. They dont even have to be unique either, you could have 5 different precision rifles with different characteristics but all equaling the same gun.I'd love to see SMG's make an appearance as that line between pistols/shotguns and some variety in the rifle class with something like the CTME/FAL for more long range work and some AKU/M4's as your lighter variants of your standard AR's. I realize that mods will likely fill this role but if there is enough demand theres no reason to incorporate atleast a few ingame so you dont have people installing mods on day 1. There is so much room for tactical min/maxing in the gameplay so a rifle thats lighter but less accurate or an automatic pistol would change up gameplay so much. You can even add a future bounce to everything but saying their rechambered for a unified cartridge. Encase you needed some ideas this is a great website to get actual stats of the guns, http://world.guns.ru/index-e.html We're not planning to do this. Adding a large variety of different weapons with a small difference between them makes it really confusing for beginners ("What's the difference between the M-16 and the AK-47? Does it matter which I choose? WTF?"), whereas a few different archetypes are quick and easy to understand. This is an X-Com game rather than a Jagged Alliance style game, so the weapon selection and customisation stuff is deliberately more limited. Though as you've said, extra starting guns will get modded in very quickly. There's artwork for them already for people to use in the game directory. I just don't think it adds enough to the gameplay to make up for the needless complexity it adds, so it won't be in the vanilla game. However, I do expect it to be one of the more popular mods...I just think more people would rather play without it than with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legit1337 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 (edited) Your arguments were based pretty much entirely round the MG's needing to be changed for realism purposes, though, whereas other people have made arguments that the MG's need to be changed for gameplay balance purposes, so the purpose of the changes are different.I'm much more likely to make large changes to a weapon to correct perceived balance issues than perceived realism issues. Authenticity, not realism, but regardless... (paraphrasing) Me: "I think MG mags should be given at least 10 more rounds for authenticity's sake. The 10 round burst and the loss of heavy weapon penalty made the MGs a bit too deadly, the accuracy on the MGs should be nerfed a little to balance these changes, plus the increased mag size." Chris + A few others: "Nah, that is a dumb idea... MG accuracy is fine, and the mag size is fine too." 3 weeks later... Everyone: "Thanks for the increased mag size on the MG chris, it feels much better now. Mind nerfing the accuracy on the MG a bit to balance all the current changes?" Chris: "Excellent idea guys, It'll be in the next build." Me: "..." Edited March 21, 2014 by legit1337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted March 21, 2014 Author Share Posted March 21, 2014 Let's not continue this debate please. Nobody has a personal vendetta against you or anything like that. You're also not paraphrasing my argument correctly. I never said accuracy on MGs were fine, I just said I'm not willing to change it just so we can increase the clip size back up to 50 and you could be more content with the authenticity of the weapon. You're additionally being overgenerous in paraphrasing your own argument. Your first two posts in this thread (I didn't read any further because you started talking about rockets after that) just mention that large belts break the immersion for you, yet you're now claiming you made a nuanced gameplay argument about heavy weapons penalties and accuracy. If you'd made the first post you claimed you did in the above post, the accuracy changes may well have been made earlier because they're actually supported by gameplay reasoning rather than your subjective opinions on what constitutes an acceptable level of "realism". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legit1337 Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 You're additionally being overgenerous in paraphrasing your own argument. Your first two posts in this thread (I didn't read any further because you started talking about rockets after that) just mention that large belts break the immersion for you, yet you're now claiming you made a nuanced gameplay argument about heavy weapons penalties and accuracy. Not in this thread no. But in one of the ground combat balance threads that has since been deleted or moved, I made the argument both about authenticity of 50 round mags and the gameplay balances of removing the heavy weapons penalty, + the new 10 round bursts. It was the very first thread when the %TU system was introduced. I remember because both you and Kate Miccuci responded to me that it was a bad idea. Let's not continue this debate please. Nobody has a personal vendetta against you or anything like that. I'm sorry but it seems that way when my balance suggestions are ignored out of hand, and then when someone else makes the exact same suggestion (regardless if it is not for the same reason) it is implemented. You're right though, we shouldn't derail the thread further, I'll leave it at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selvhan Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Pistols : - Should be average at short range and bad/impossible at long range. - Should automaticly replace the current weapon if that current weapon cannot allow a reaction action and if a reaction fire is triggered of course if you have the Time Units require. The primary weapon should go either on the ground or in the back backpack. That would make the pistol more useful. because right now I prefer to have grenades and/or more rockets instead. Shotgun : - Should be good at short range, and average at medium range. Long range impossible. Assault rifle : - Should be average in all range. - snapshot ( should be called the Double Tap and should fire two bullets ), full auto that should fire at least 5 bullets and the normal shot/aimed shot that should fire only one bullet. Machine gun : ( It depends on what calibre you're using... ) - Should be average in short, good in medium and average on long range. - Penalty to reaction fire - Burst ( 2-3 bullets ) and full auto that currently fire 10 bullets and it perfectly fine for me. Sniper Rifle : - Should be average in short, very good in medium and good in long range. Rocket launcher : ( Rocket launcher should have a backfire effect... ) - Bad in close, good in medium and average in long range. - No reaction fire possible - snapshot and aimed shot. You should also be able to able/unable reaction fire based on the % chance to hit. Why ? Because the shotgun reaction at medium range is currently terrible and it would be really better at shorter range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 The assault rifle double tap cannot be done, the game doesn't allow more than a single type of burst fire per weapon or for the single shot modes to fire multiple rounds. The machine gun cannot have different burst fire modes for the same reason. It also already has a reaction fire penalty. I dislike the suggested pistol mechanic because I prefer choices to equip weapons for specific situations be left to the player. It would not make the pistol more useful to me as that mechanic is already possible it just relies on the player choosing to do it rather than the game doing it for you. If I am in a situation where a reaction shot with a pistol would be preferable over using another equipped weapon then I can just equip the pistol. That has the added benefit of making reaction fire more likely due to the higher reaction modifier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arghy Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I've been regretting the MG due to its inability to fire more then once per turn--perhaps a single shot low TU cost snap shot? If the rifle has to choose from a 3 round burst or a higher burst i say give it a good mag dump burst and make snap shot even cheaper so you can mag dump with a burst or snap shot to get the same effect of a double tap/3 round burst. The engines limits totally validates multiple weapons! you cant make a weapon do it all so why just have 3? the standard AR with a 3 round burst, an AR with a 5-6 round burst and a SMG style weapon that has nothing but a 4 round burst. You can have LMG's that dont have such a stiff movement penalty at the cost of a smaller burst, same with the sniper rifles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Then you reach the point where there are just a big clump of weapons with no real differences between them. An assault rifle with a longer burst and an lmg with a single shot are basically the same weapon. Why would you want a single weapon that does it all? Surely that would be the new heavy plasma that you give to every squad member regardless of their role. That is not the design goal of the devs. They wanted clearer role delineation and identifiable archetypes. The player should know when they pick up an assault rifle of any tier that it will have a short burst and adequate single shot accuracy, that an lmg will have a long burst at the expense of movement, that a precision rifle will have good long range accuracy but limited use up close. Blurring those lines is not what the whole design of the weapon tiers has been about since the game was started. It is mod territory to change it, especially at this stage of the game. Several people have modded variations on that theme so far and I am sure there will be more complete mods once the game is not undergoing so many rapid changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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