Pistol & shield.

[Mordobb]

I may have been lucky and unlucky.

Right now the accuracy system seem solid, i like it a lot.

There s only 2 things i noticed.

Aliens shots seems to bypass the shield in direct front shot too much. (ie they don t damage the shield and my soldier is wounded killed)

Pistol seem to have a range a bit too good compared to rifle. I would shorten the pistol range a bit.

Just 2 cents.

[Nickboom]

I agree with the shield thing I honestly want it to be blocks 80% of damage all the time and to the people that say "Thats not realistic" How is getting shot DIRECTLY front where the shield is and the shot completely bypasses the shield and hits the guy.

[GizmoGomez]

The reason it bypasses the shield and hits the guy is because the guy got shot in the arm, or the leg, or the head, or some other spendage that sticks out slightly from the edge of the shield. If you want it to be realistic, then make the shield block, like, 80% of all shots, plus an additional 5% more when crouched. It should be really difficult to be shot "through" the shield.

It should block more damage, you are right Mordobb.

[Tobbzn]

In v19, I haven't had a single shot pass my shield, which is somewhat amazing. Also, alien pistols actually seem MORE accurate than regular pistols, even when used by Xenonauts, so shields are awesome <3

[Mordobb]

Well trained soldier don t pop up head or arm, hand at maximum this when there s no gunplacer on the shield. I think 80%/90% to shield would be good.

If its a question of portraying the shield weakness then makeshots more damaging to the shield so he disapear quicker.

Well so far 7 shot to the shieldbearer.

6 bypassed the shield 1 stopped on it, shield always in front of the alien.

5 death, 3 wouded. All pistol shooters.

Im on steam with experimental enabled, not in front of the game not sure its SC3 or an experimental build.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Mordobb

[Chris]

It should be an 80% chance to stop a frontal shot already, from memory. That's certainly the intention.

[Nickboom]

@Chris I dont think we are asking for 80% chance to stop a shot we are asking for 80% of the damage to be stopped from every shot (if it hits the shield of course) The current system implies that 20% of the time the shield bearer just sticks his head out and gets shot right in the face.

[EchoFourDelta]

That's more believable then 20% of every shot melting through and slowly slaughtering the soldier; it stops it or it doesn't, and has a much better chance of stopping it than not. This not only keeps the trooper safer in the long run, especially if they're wearing stronger armor, but follows more in spirit to what a ballistic shield's actually supposed to do, in addition to keeping your soldiers out of medical.

[GizmoGomez]

@Chris I dont think we are asking for 80% chance to stop a shot we are asking for 80% of the damage to be stopped from every shot (if it hits the shield of course) The current system implies that 20% of the time the shield bearer just sticks his head out and gets shot right in the face.

I don't think anyone but you is asking for that, mate.

You do realize that the shield wouldn't cover every part of the bearer's body, especially if he's standing up. Those 20% of the shots that hit and deal full damage are hitting the body parts extending past the shield. I don't see how this is difficult to understand.

@Chris:

Is there a bonus to crouching? Like, because the shield covers more of the body, it blocks more of the shots? I'd recommend 90% or even 95% of shots should be blocked.

So, +10% or 15%. This would apply to the diagonal chances too.

[Mordobb]

Then i ve been extremely unlucky.

cause all myshield bearer get shot under circunstances that shouldn t happen so much.

The death ratio remember me a bit of the tunnel rats during viet-nam.

I better research that first armor soon or noone will want to bear the damn shield.

Would bearing the shield with 2 hands help conceal the soldier more ?

Could such idea become food for thoughts ?

[Nickboom]

I don't think anyone but you is asking for that, mate.

You do realize that the shield wouldn't cover every part of the bearer's body, especially if he's standing up. Those 20% of the shots that hit and deal full damage are hitting the body parts extending past the shield. I don't see how this is difficult to understand.

If that so then I wasnt I informed that vital organs are now in arms and legs. Surely the xenonaut holding the shield is smart enough to keep the shield protecting the important stuff, so even if the shots are suppose to be arm and legs shot then they should have the damage toned down as well.

[maackey]

I'm also a bit disappointed at how often shots pass through shields at the moment, especially when my soldiers are crouched and directly facing the shooter. I would imagine 95% of all frontal shots would be blocked, at the very least when crouched -- as the shield can still be pretty easily broken with a couple rounds of plasma fire. The lighter weight is nice and actually lets me use them, but I still find myself trying other breaching tactics as they just aren't reliable enough.

A handful of soldiers in various instances died in a single round from plasma pistol burst reaction fire as I was trying to assault the light scouts. If my soldiers are going to get blown apart anyway I might as well equip them with shotguns or an HMG so they can at least deal *some* damage before soaking up reaction fire and dying.

[EchoFourDelta]

The arms and legs are both host to large arteries that leak pretty damn bad if they get torn. If you're wearing armor that covers your torso, they become the chief vulnerability aside from your head.

Hits to the arms and legs are almost as lethal as getting holed somewhere in the torso; it doesn't much matter where you get shot, or with what - it can flat-out kill your ass.

[Elydo]

I'm going to restrain my impulse to go into the potential mechanics of plasma damage upon a human body, heh.

Is there a reason shields don't get an upgrade with alien alloys, when wolf armour is developed? Or do they and I just haven't noticed?

[bullock]

Is there a reason shields don't get an upgrade with alien alloys, when wolf armour is developed? Or do they and I just haven't noticed?

Actually there is an evolution but not working properly

[EchoFourDelta]

I'm going to restrain my impulse to go into the potential mechanics of plasma damage upon a human body, heh.

Is there a reason shields don't get an upgrade with alien alloys, when wolf armour is developed? Or do they and I just haven't noticed?

I imagine that it'd be like being struck at velocity by a large, semi-liquid mass of burning white phosphorous.

"HAH, good thing it only hit my arm! Oh wait..."

Remember: If John McClane can no-sell a contact shot to the shoulder, you can too!

[Max_Caine]

Oh dear, my pet peeve has once again arisen.

Le sigh.

The shield doesn't last very long against a withering blast of plasma fire. That's okay. I expect that. I'd be very surprised if a withering blast of plasma fire didn't leave the squaddie next turn thinking, "mama, if you ever prayed for anyone, pray for me now". What is very annoying is that I've given up, or at least right up until shields went ultralight, had given up a considerable amount of firepower in return for what I thought was protection. So, if I'm going to choose protection over firepower, then I expect that protection to protect my squaddie, not every so often let a shot through that inevitably kills said squaddie. Or I'd rather have the firepower, to be honest. Best form of defence, and all that?

[Tobbzn]

No protection is 100%. The main benefit of the shield is that you can have cover anywhere, and it further improves current cover.

As for firepower, in the late game you can easily have backup weapons and enough TU to switch. In fact I find it to be the safest way to move snipers. Early game stick alien plasma pistols on your shieldbearers. The penalty is odd and your accuracy is actually better than with ballistic pistol. Your firepower will be the highest in your squad.

[Nickboom]

Of course tobbzn but how does a shot pass completely through a solid shield and land a shot equal in power to one on someone with out a shield if we are saying the it hits arms and legs arguement then the damage should be greatly reduced (and yes arms and legs bleed but one doesnt just go OH MY ARM and drop dead they live for a couple of minutes unless the arm is totally removed.)

[Max_Caine]

Using explotable flaws in the system is valuable up to the point where those flaws are exposed and plugged. It's great to use alien weapons - I in fact loot the bodies of the dead for their weapons because those are more valuable than the weapons I bring onto the field. That's not supposed to be the intention of those weapons, but intention be damned when the opportunity is available. If alien weapons become "as intended" then what value do I place on them as suitible options for firepower? In fact, thanks for reminding me - I'd been meaning to raise that point about alien weapons for a while now (done).

Regarding the benefit of a shield. Now that the shield is ultralight, it is certainly is more benefical for occasional use rather than dedicated use. Previously, when it was weighing in at 20kgs, it was very difficult to carry anything other than a pistol and still have APs to do much more than plink away. As I said, it was a tradeoff between firepower and protection, because the damn thing was so heavy. However, I am going to wait and see if it will stay ultralight before I can make a proper judgement.

But regarding protection, and the 100%-ness or not, I wouldn't trust it to stop a shot when I needed it to. It's a question of reliability. The shield does not last long - even against plasma pistols, it will take 4 shots before it's destroyed. If my shield does not last for very long and has a 1 in 5 chance of letting shots through, then I'm not going to use it in high-risk situations where the protection of a shield should mitigate those risks, because there are much better ways of handling those risks than leaving them to a on-again, off-again shield.

[Elydo]

@Nickboom - Actually one of the potential traumas induced by high energy plasma would be disruption of the nervous system. Thermal shock would also be a factor, not necessarily because of heat damage to the wound (which would have been vapourised) but spreading out from the wound location. Kinetic impact would be impossible to hypothesis, we don't know the properties of a packet of plasma like that. In addition, the damage inflicted would depend on the energy state of the plasma ('Cold' or 'Hot'. A flame, for instance, is a 'cold' plasma. 'Hot' plasmas constitute stars.) as well as potentially the strength of magnetic bottle containing the plasma as well. Suffice to say however, a man standing with a ballistic shield would be able to tolerate hits upon the shield, though the shield would lose integrity. The shield does not fully cover him however, and being hit on the foot would probably cost him his foot, maybe his leg below the knee. If hit in the arm the damage is much closer to the trunk of the body and so associative effects have the potential of being much more severe.

[Nickboom]

Im sorry but I dont think normal plasma is that lethal to an arm and a leg because they seem to be able to take a shot to the chest with plasma and after 9 days in the hospital their ready and pumped up to go.

Edit: I see what you mean if it hits higher on the limb but still thats not like getting a *direct* hit from plasma and the damage should be reduced.

[StellarRat]

A true hit from plasma hot enough to instantly burn through steel, etc... would result in a steam/metal vapor explosion on the target wherever it was hit. Your guy would probably be blown off his feet and like have his shield implanted into his body. Additionally, the flash would probably blind him. IRL, every hit would likely be fatal or at a minimum (plasma pistol) would render your soldier combat ineffective no matter what type of fancy armor he was wearing. The only thing that could probably take a hit and keep going would be power armor or vehicles.

[Elydo]

It would really depend, part of a lighting strike is a plasma burn and they're pretty small, though very deep. It's typically the electrical element that is fatal.

In terms of a projected bolt, it would depend on the dynamics of the bolt and any interaction with a target. Any sort of explosive surface vapourisation of the target could dissipate the majority of a small enough bolt before the greater part of any damage potential was inflicted. On the other hand, a tightly confined bolt with a properly configured magbottle could direct the plasma onto the target as a shaped jet as the bottle came into contact with the target and ruptured, cutting through damn near anything. With the associate electromagnetic disruption of living flesh and unhardened electronics. Not to mention potential radiological effects from the plasma substrate.

Can you tell I'm a sci-fi guy?

The point being that we can't really know. It's not as easy as looking at an arc welder and saying "Now imagine that fired at someone" Plasma itself is a particularly useless term when it comes to specifics, a bit like saying "bullet" with no other information to go on. Not to mention I have no idea at all about the convection properties of a contained packet of plasma moving through atmosphere. The visual effects would be as bright as lightning though, again a lightning bolt is in effect a plasma column generated by the high electrical charge ionising the air.

Suffice to say it's plausible enough that the shields would provide protection without damage bleeding through (ceramics or similar), at least until the integrity of the shield was gubbed. The shield itself does not provide full coverage however, even from the front, and the potential exists for any hit to be severe even to an extremity.

[StellarRat]

Actually, IRL the Xenonaut lasers would have a similar effect on the aliens at least with our current technology. The weapons would be fairly similar for most intents. But, hey, it's only a game!