Geoscape Balance Discussion v19 Experimental Build 6

[ventuswings]

I like the idea of headlights. Very simple, and also fits in with the idea of Scout car.

[Mermel]

I think the role of the damage dealer is already well defined.

There are a lot of ways to deal damage in a multitude of ways. Stun, AOE, Precision, Hypervelocity, you name it. So damage dealing doesn't feel like a thing that compells me to take a vehicle with me.

What remains are scouting and tanking duties.

Personally I would like to see vehicles primarily in the scouting department, as it is also kind of tanking in the sense of preventing damage through superior intelligence.

I have to admit, that I havn't seen any vehicle but the Hunter in action so far, so I can only comment on that one.

Bringing its sight range on par with the sight range of caesans should already be enough to make me very interestet in bringing one along instead of two recruits.

As for other characteristics and skills that would be interesting:

-Small hover drones taking up half a slot (So you're able to take two instead of a soldier) as fast, fragile and weak scouts even within buildings.

- Smoke screen launchers on vehicles

- Improved sight range during night (like thermal vision or headlights like mentioned above)

- Flare arrey lunchers on vehicles, scattering several flares in an area for high efficiency lighting

- expanded field of view

- A grenade that provides short 360° LOS where it is fired, like a lunchable camera

- Vehicle providing low cover

- Expanded sight range of course

Ram attacks as mentioned above seem like a bad idea to me. Their usefulness would at best be questionable, as the vehicle has to come into close combat with an alien to do the attack.

Thus the ram attack itself is highly situational and not really a point of sale. I would rather go for a lower hanging fruit that provides more general usefulness so the work invested would pay off and don't just fade away into "I never use that feature"

Edited August 8, 2013 by Mermel

[Max_Caine]

Okay, my chief experience is with the Scimitar and the Hunter in this version. (So much so I've gone and released a mod here!). I'm still fiddling with the Hyperion, so I'll talk about the ones I know best.

First off: Ram attacks sound cool and you could pull it off in the scout era, but once you hit the mediums, you'll never get close enough for a ram attack without taking a lot of damage. Seriously, even with, say, 90 APs you might run over one alien, but his budskis aren't far behind and oh my god it's SO easy to hit a vehicle.

Secondly: Did I mention how easy it is to hit a vehicle? This can't be understated. Especially with you have the Scimitar which has longer sides than it does a front. It's very important you don't let aliens "cross your T" (i.e. you be side on, they be front on), because those long flanks just beg to be worked over with a plasma gun.

----------------------

Ideas.

Here's an idea that can be implemented straight away: Secondary weapon slots. The legacy code is there, the functionality is present, the data structures are set up! You can modify what each vehicle carries. I mean for frag's sake the freaking Hyperion images both in the garages and in game have a primary and secondary weapon! (I'm surprised no-one has complained about this). So help us Obi-Wan! Give us a smoke grenade launcher for the Hunter! A machine gun for the Scimitar! The rocket packs we can see on the Hyperion!

Secondly, I would try and set up each vehicle so it remains useful outside of the era that it was made in. My suggestions are already there: Give the Hunter superior sight range (because it can then engage targets which can't see it, and it can provide critical intel to Xenonaut snipers). Make the Scimitar the toughest out of the three - both armour and HP, so you know it'll hang around. Make the Hyperion super fast, because it can work around enemy positions in a way that Xenonaut soliders usually can't.

Thirdly, vehicle HP is too low. The Hunter can get away with it in the scout era, but it doesn't take more than a few bursts during the medium era to reduce it to scrap. If the Scimitar is supposed to be the mid-era vehicle, then I would strongly reccomend upping the HPs to around 600-700 and boosting the armour rating to at least Wolf armour standard. This may sound excessive, but with the medums come the heavy plasma, lots of plasma rifles, sniper plasma and later on the plasma cannon. Vehicles can't hide and duck for cover like soliders can. Most of the time they have to take it, so they (Scimitar espcially) should be able to take it.

I've got more, but it's getting all tl;dr-y now.

[Ol' Stinky]

First off: Ram attacks sound cool and you could pull it off in the scout era, but once you hit the mediums, you'll never get close enough for a ram attack without taking a lot of damage. Seriously, even with, say, 90 APs you might run over one alien, but his budskis aren't far behind and oh my god it's SO easy to hit a vehicle.

Secondly: Did I mention how easy it is to hit a vehicle? This can't be understated. Especially with you have the Scimitar which has longer sides than it does a front. It's very important you don't let aliens "cross your T" (i.e. you be side on, they be front on), because those long flanks just beg to be worked over with a plasma gun.

For sure. But one of the reasons I don't like taking vehicles along is that I have to make breaches wide enough for vehicles. For example, on that default desert map where you start outside a military base with concrete walls, I never enter through the main gate. I always use an LMG to punch through a walls on the west side. A ram attack, assuming it hit all three tiles in front of the vehicle, would make it less of a hassle. At the moment, I feel like I'm trying to push a fat kid through a small hole.

Road rage shouldn't be a viable strategy anyway. Squishing the odd reaper, or making beeping sounds as you mow down all the non-combatants in a lightscout mission, is just a pleasant side benefit.

[StellarRat]

I'm in favor of more armor/hit point and better weapons. They are so easy to hit with burst fire that more toughness is a must if they don't have some other defense. I don't care if you reduce the sight range to make them not OP. A smoke generator would be cool too.

If you're going to leave the prices as is you should seriously think about making them recoverable like the jets are now.

I think the main thing you want to avoid is making a vehicle heavy strategy viable. They should be very vulnerable when there are too few Xenonauts in close proximity. That's why I think the sight range should be limited even for the Hunter.

A couple ideas for a better weapon(s). I'd be happy with any of these:

1. Give them a heavy machine gun (.50 cal or 20mm cannon even) instead of the .30 cal, with lots of ammo. You can do a fairly good job of simulating the .50 cal by just taking the infantry LMG and doubling range, damage, terrain damage and armor penetration while leaving the scatter and ROF alone.

2. Increase the number of rockets in the optional rocket laucher and decrease the TUs to fire.

3 Allow the pulse laser to fire more often (less TU) and have plenty of ammo.

4. Give them a 40mm automatic grenade laucher instead of the MG. It would act just like a rocket launcher, but you'd be able to fire more often and have a lot more ammo. You just have to simulate a grenade blast (just like a the current conventional grenade) instead of a full size rocket blast. It could also fire smoke and stun grenades (if that's possible with the current code game.)

I also like the idea of running over aliens, but realistically, it's very difficult to run over something that knows your coming. Dodging is something that a turn based system has a difficult time dealing with in a realistic manner. Androns might be the only thing that could easily be run over. I can see a lot of gamey abuse potential with this.

Edited August 8, 2013 by StellarRat

[Mermel]

-snip-

I think Max got it mostly right.

Keeping the Vehicles interesting throughout the ages should be a major concern.

Giving each of them a unique theme sounds about right. I just have to add that adding HP and armor to the hunter doesn't seem right, as it would make the light scout age completly trivial.

I'd rather see a research path to increase the health after the light scout age than making the hunter tougher from the start.

[Ishantil]

I used the Scout Car for a while, but eventually replaced it with two guys. The infantry option was better almost all of the time because you got two guys, two weapons (that could different) two sets of TUs, and two sets of hitpoints. Additionally, infantry can be healed and their stats are not static.

I've always felt that a vehicle crew should be treated the same way that any other unit, accuracy, and TUs should get better. A tank crew definitely gets better with experience.

In order to be an interesting and viable choice, a vehicle needs one or more of the following:

1. Unique capabilities (a weapon that is inaccessible on any other platform)

2. As much firepower as the two infantry it replaces (heavier weapons)

3. Enough TUs as it takes for a shot and move. Probably twice as many. The Scout Car should have 80 TUs, enough to move and enough to shoot.

4. Enough armor/hitpoints to justify it's size. Since it's a huge target and can be destroyed easily by auto-fire, it should be tough enough to justify the loss of two infantry members.

5. A main weapon and a secondary weapon. Most military vehicles have a purpose gun (20mm cannon, grenade launcher, rocket launcher) and an anti-infantry weapon (coaxial 7.62mm machine gun, etc). If a vehicle only has an anti-infantry weapon, it should be something like a vulcan cannon.

Lastly, there's nothing stopping the aliens from employing weaponry that with the same characteristics (such as the Reapers, Cyberdiscs, and such in X-COM)

Note: I have not seen any of the later game weapons platforms assuming there is something beyond the Hunter Scout Car

[lemm]

I generally use the vehicles for scouting and providing suppressing fire.

[Max_Caine]

What might be valuable is to give vehicles the same "wall crush" ability Androns have, so they can root out stubbon lil' tykes camping in buildings.

And a FYI for anyone who remembers that laser cannons used to have 8 shots. They now have 15, so Scimitars can keep up with the Big Boys.

[GizmoGomez]

I really love the idea of secondary weapons; sounds super awesome.

An automatic grenade launcher sounds awesome, smoke dispenser sounds awesome, a (secondary) machine gun sounds awesome, rockets on the hyperion sound awesome. Just give us lots of options (provided they make sense, of course).

One idea, concerning the automatic grenade launcher; would it be possible to have multiple grenade types? Like, we could have HE grenades, smoke grenades, and flares, maybe.

Maybe treat it as a rocket launcher, so we can have multiple ammo types? Then can we have a single loaded rocket be able to be fired multiple times? This way we could treat them like clips of grenades, so we can load the flare clip (at a TU cost) and fire it (at a TU cost) but subsequent firings wouldn't cost a reload TU cost because the clip is already in place.

[Ishantil]

I love being able to mix and match options.

I'm not sure how the UI works for secondary weapons, but it makes sense to make much of the weaponry for the Xenonauts into modular pods that have a standard turret mount. If you make a tank, it comes with it's integrated main cannon and Standard Secondary Weapon Option Mount 1E Mod 30 (see mounting instructions).

Why not use a modified version of the existing Xenonaut screen? Why not have armor upgrades for vehicles and have a total weight that reduces the TUs in the same way? That way, you can equip your vehicle the same way you do a trooper, weighing the possibility of an overweight vehicle against reduced mobility.

[smoitessier]

Come to think of it, it sounds like vehicles have way too few TUs, because a moving vehicle doesn't slow down (go less far) because it fired two shots. So I would add a bunch of TUs to compensate, unless you guys are thinking of implementing a new move/fire/dual fire system for vehicles.

[StellarRat]

Come to think of it, it sounds like vehicles have way too few TUs, because a moving vehicle doesn't slow down (go less far) because it fired two shots. So I would add a bunch of TUs to compensate, unless you guys are thinking of implementing a new move/fire/dual fire system for vehicles.

They can fire on the move, BUT depending on how fancy the gun stabilizer is you might not be able to hit the broadside of a barn with the main weapon. In WWII moving fire was nearly impossible on rough ground until late in the war when a few tanks got gyrostabilized main guns. I'm sure most of our vehicles would have that, but I'm not sure the Hunter would since it only has MGs. Of course, a man operated weapon (like a rifle or MG) can be stabilized by the person that is shooting it to a certain extent. My Army buddies tell me that manning a turret cuppola MG while traveling at speed is dangerous and painful as your body can slam into the gun if you hit a bump, etc... Edited August 8, 2013 by StellarRat

[Aaron]

I've already asked Sergey, our ground combat coder, to start looking into doing headlights; smoke grenades should be easy enough too. Giving the Hyperion the missiles it has on the model would also be fun, and we probably wouldn't need any more art for it, so if we get time I will look into that too.

Also Chris and I had a chat about them and I think we are going to rebalance the vehicle weapons to be single shot AOE style weapons which do lots of suppression but relatively modest damage, a bit like the alien plasma cannon; probably also set to the "incendiary" damage type so they are good at wrecking scenery.

I don't think we will be doing a vehicle crushing mechanic, I can imagine it taking a fair bit of effort to code (and debug) and it also seems like something that might be ripe for abuse.

Making destroyed vehicles recoverable like fighters (with a long, but free, "repair time") would be a nice way to differentiate them further from troops, and reduce the financial burden of building them; it would probably also just lead to them being used more often, as people will get more practice with them than the current system of building one, getting it blown away by a Sebillian on the first mission and going "oof, that was expensive" and never touching them again. It would also be significantly more work to implement, so again we will have to see if we get time.

[TrashMan]

Since the armored car has a turret with TWO .50 cal machineguns, then it SHOULD have the firepower of 2 soldiers. So either double the shots fired or halve the TU cost

[StellarRat]

Since the armored car has a turret with TWO .50 cal machineguns, then it SHOULD have the firepower of 2 soldiers. So either double the shots fired or halve the TU cost

Actually, it's twin .30s. Twin .50s would be awesome though!

[StellarRat]

I've been doing some thinking about AVs and the Hunter in particular. I don't think raising the sight range is a good route. My three reasons are:

1. Being able to see farther than any of your enemies is a HUGE advantage in Xenonauts since squad sight/fire is an acceptable tactic. Having a long viewing Hunter would further enhance that gameyness. That would make them OP IMO. We've already been down the "long sight" road with the Hunter a few versions ago that it was taken away for the same reasons I've mentioned.

2. It's not at all realistic. The view from inside a buttoned up AV is awful compared with standing out in the open. It's very restricted and narrow and time comsuming to switch views. I've been in a few and I just can't see how it could possibly be better except in certain cases where there is thermal imaging is used to penetrate smoke, dust, fog, and darkness. That didn't come along until after the Xenonauts timeframe.

3. Having an improved view doesn't really reflect the true advantages of AVs in combat. The real reason AVs are used are speed, firepower, and protection. The Hunter doesn't really have any of these compared to the soldiers on the ground. Quite the opposite in fact. They are easy to kill because they're large targets and can't take cover. They've barely faster then a mediocre ground pounder, and they have less firepower than a decent MG operator or rocketeer. Plus they take up two slots on the choppa and cost more than two recruits.

Someone suggested an upgrade path for the Hunter. I think this might not be a bad idea. You would think the armor at least could be improved once alien alloys are researched. It should be possible to bolt on/replace with alien armor plate since it is so thin and light. There could also be an earlier armor upgrade at the same time you get Jackel armor too. Also, I see no reason why a Heavy Scatter Laser or two regular Scatter Lasers couldn't be fitted to the Hunter instead of the Pulse Laser.

Edited August 9, 2013 by StellarRat

[Mytheos]

It seems like the Prop Range on Grenades being 10 limits the effect of grenades when thrown past a range of 10.

Like flashbangs dont work when thrown outside of a range of 10

[StellarRat]

It seems like the Prop Range on Grenades being 10 limits the effect of grenades when thrown past a range of 10.

Like flashbangs dont work when thrown outside of a range of 10

Sounds like a bug.

[StellarRat]

Also Chris and I had a chat about them and I think we are going to rebalance the vehicle weapons to be single shot AOE style weapons which do lots of suppression but relatively modest damage, a bit like the alien plasma cannon; probably also set to the "incendiary" damage type so they are good at wrecking scenery.

Great idea. A light cannon like a 25mm firing HE would fit the bill perfectly or the 40mm grenade launcher I mentioned earlier. It should have a fairly high ROF. I'm assuming it would miss quite often, but a direct hit should be deadly. Edited August 9, 2013 by StellarRat

[EchoFourDelta]

This is what I got excited about the other day when someone mentioned something about a chaingun. Autocannons ftw.

[StellarRat]

This is what I got excited about the other day when someone mentioned something about a chaingun. Autocannons ftw.

The main problem will be how not to make it OP. If it worked like a real Bushmaster it'd be way OP.

[Mermel]

Whatever is done to the vehicles, I just hope power creep doesn't hit the whole balance thing.

As for that, I like to take back any support for increasing sight range.

Drastically increasing total TUs and TUs needed to fire the main gun seem more appropriate, as it also promotes scouting with the hunter, but in that case with a certain degree of risk.

[EchoFourDelta]

That's part of the problem; just about any actual ground vehicle would stomp mudholes in the ass of the crashed UFOs and their crews.

[StellarRat]

That's part of the problem; just about any actual ground vehicle would stomp mudholes in the ass of the crashed UFOs and their crews.

Correct. But, I don't have a problem with balancing that out somehow was long as it's not completely illogical. I think a 25mm that fires maybe two or three times per turn on snapshot and has about half the power of a level 1 grenade wouldn't be out of line or a single shot 40mm with the same power as a grenade. It would need to have good range too, like a sniper rifle.

The OG AVs were quite powerful, but still had limited use as they couldn't fit into UFOs and bases. I seem to the remember the hover tank having 110 HP armor on the front and about 100 TUs and a nasty fusion rocket launcher. They were spendy and took a long time to build. So I don't think even a pretty dramatically improved set of AVs would be out of line.

Edited August 9, 2013 by StellarRat