Geoscape Balance Discussion v19 Experimental Build 6

[kabill]

Are you meaning that it could be modded back in, or something else? I'm fairly sure I know how it could be modded - just wanted to check you're not referring to something else.

[Max_Caine]

Well, it can very easily be modded back in, because I believe (I'm not sure - I'm not at home atm) that the data to manufacture grenades etc. was not removed from manufactures.xml when they were changed to an upgrade. If that's the case, then all you should need to do is set the appropriate items to normal in items.xml.

[kabill]

Awesome, thanks.

[xcomnaut]

I dont know any good way to balace if everything would be craftable. My workshops doing nothing most of the time too. In EU1994 that time was used to make money

[Max_Caine]

No-one builds vehicles except me then?

[xcomnaut]

No-one builds vehicles except me then?

I dont use vehicles, never used in EU1994 too. Vehicle takes 4 spots but dont give that much advantage. Even 1 soldier is better than 1 vehicle at the moment. I think vehicles will be next "stealth buff" target.

[kabill]

I've literally never used a GC vehicle in any of my games. Partly this is prejudice (I've seen some people on here say they suck) but also because I'd rather save my money for building hangars/planes! If it wasn't necessary to build an additional base facility to use them, I might consider it, but the garage is a barrier too far for me to care to use them.

[Max_Caine]

4 spots, xcomnaut? They take 2 spots. Which means you're one man down.

[xcomnaut]

4 spots, xcomnaut? They take 2 spots. Which means you're one man down.

Ah, maybe 2. Used them so long ago I forgot how many spots it takes Still I prefer 1 soldier to 1 vehicle anyway.

Edited August 6, 2013 by xcomnaut

[svidangel]

Yeah, vehicles would have to be much tougher, or have some pretty spiffy ability to make up for not skilling up two more soldiers. Brought this up for a rifle buff, but it would work here too to have the vehicle able to fire for free (0TUs) once per turn and have good movement and sight range.

[xcomnaut]

Yeah, vehicles would have to be much tougher, or have some pretty spiffy ability to make up for not skilling up two more soldiers. Brought this up for a rifle buff, but it would work here too to have the vehicle able to fire for free (0TUs) once per turn and have good movement and sight range.

Im thinking the same. More TU, more health, more sight and maybe some new ability like radar.

[Max_Caine]

More health? You do know how many HPs a Hunter has, right?

[xcomnaut]

More health? You do know how many HPs a Hunter has, right?

300 = 1.5 AlienPlasmaRifle burst or 1 AlienBattleRifle burst or 6 AlienPlasmaPistol shots.

[Max_Caine]

Are you accounting for armour? I don't have the values in front of me, but the Hunters I use survive considerably longer than the values you have quoted me (taking random damage into account).

[xcomnaut]

Are you accounting for armour? I don't have the values in front of me, but the Hunters I use survive considerably longer than the values you have quoted me (taking random damage into account).

No , I used numbers without armor. But armor is like 20 or so. Anyway, what advantage do you get from using vehicle? Of course if its just fun to use it, no justification needed.

But lets talk about usability.

1. Vehicle is 2-3x easier to hit;

2. not enought TU to be useful as scout;

3. even 300 health + armor is not enough to use as shield for soldiers;

4. takes money and production time to replace;

5. gives -2 points when destroyed instead of -1 for soldier;

6. very weak damage;

7. does not level up as soldiers;

8. cant access many places because it take 4 tiles;

For me - 1 soldier is better than 1 vehicle.

[Max_Caine]

We should really take this over to the GC thread, but you're preaching to the choir, as I accidently posted my experiences of 19.6 vehicles in this thread. I can't honestly justify using a vehicle, but I do so anyway.

[smoitessier]

If we could get a little more alenium from downed ufos, I could be interesting to use your stockpile to make torpedoes and missiles, and perhaps even magazines for weapons and grenades and rockets, the cost could be even free, but would keep your worshops busy at least

[Dranak]

If we could get a little more alenium from downed ufos, I could be interesting to use your stockpile to make torpedoes and missiles, and perhaps even magazines for weapons and grenades and rockets, the cost could be even free, but would keep your worshops busy at least

We have different definitions of interesting then, because I don't really enjoy having to manufacture ammo. I'd rather see them continue with tweaks that make early game manufacturing more appealing (now it's at least somewhat reasonable to build lasers, but you don't get them for a month, but I think that's more an issue of light scouts lasting too long).

As for what Aaron asked in the OP, I find 15 scientists to be more than sufficient until mid-Dec. I've building a second base on day 1, then building both up to have 3 Foxtrots and a Charlie (plus support structures) which takes me late Oct/early Nov to get up. After that I stop and pump out some ground upgrades (mostly armor, since at this point I'm close to plasma weapons). The higher numbers/more deadly aliens is definitely a good step towards making there at least feel like a choice/trade off between bases and ground equipment.

I do kind of like the suggestion someone else made about if we keep the huge number of light scouts in the game, making it be so that there's a second hidden tier of light scouts that have 1-2 alien soldiers (with plasma rifles) on them, which would both increase variety/difficulty and allow for earlier lasers (which could make for a more interesting choice on whether or not to start manufacturing).

[kabill]

We have different definitions of interesting then, because I don't really enjoy having to manufacture ammo.

While it's probably too late for new features now (for both time and balance reasons) you could possibly overcome this by having the ability to set standing orders for engineering such that the engineering crew will maintain a stockpile of munition. For example, you could set an order to maintain 10 Alenium Torpedoes meaning that if the stockpile dips below that, the engineers will automatically start constructing them until the stockpile is replenished. That way, the micromanaging is seriously reduced.

Alternatively, specifically for explosives/missiles, you could have a one-shot engineering project which then upgrades all the relevant items rather than getting the free and instant buff that you get at the moment. That way, there's some cost with upgrading these things but you don't have to micromanage.

[Ol' Stinky]

While it's probably too late for new features now (for both time and balance reasons) you could possibly overcome this by having the ability to set standing orders for engineering such that the engineering crew will maintain a stockpile of munition. For example, you could set an order to maintain 10 Alenium Torpedoes meaning that if the stockpile dips below that, the engineers will automatically start constructing them until the stockpile is replenished. That way, the micromanaging is seriously reduced.

If they did that, though, it's basically a button you press once per game and never think about again. I can't remember which of the hacks for X-Com '94 it was - XComUtil? - but it included an option to manufacture an infinite amount of items. I'd set that on the laser cannon sweatshops and never visit them again.

I like the second option, and wouldn't mind seeing it extended to more passive effects, like advanced medkits.

[kabill]

I'm not sure that 'not thinking about it again' is necessarily a bad thing - indeed, that's pretty much the point! It's simply a mechanisms to ensure a resource cost for using advanced munitions with minimal messing around.

Having 'upgrade' engineering projects does lend itself to a variety of different things, though, which actually might make it more interesting. In fact, it would pretty much do the same thing as the Foundary projects in XCOM 2012. I'd not spotted that.

[Ol' Stinky]

It just seems to me that setting alenium missiles/torpedos to a high priority and having them produced asap automatically is not really all that different from the current situation of all alenium+, all the time. I might wonder why my spanking new set of armour isn't ready yet or something and go investigate, I suppose, but that'd be about it since I wouldn't change the order priorities. As far as financial resources go, I'd rather be docked the money when I get back to base and rearm; as far as the resource of time goes, I'd rather have aircraft take longer to re-arm depending on the tech level of the missiles/torpedos and the number of engineers available. In the latter, yeah, a "prioritise repairs" button would be useful, since you react to alien incursions and not act.

I don't think I'd be crazy to suggest that most of us posting in this thread have a long list of what's wrong with XCom '12, but did I like the foundry projects. The one you got for mutons was extra ammo capacity for ground battles, iirc, and having something like that here would be welcome for both ground and air combat (laser+ guns for gc, cannons for air). It's true that passives run the risk of being stupendously dull - I don't think anyone's ever said "Hell yeah, +1.5% damage with laser weapons! Awright!" and then pumped their fist after playing something like Gal Civ 2 or most games with talent trees - but it can be done.

[kabill]

It just seems to me that setting alenium missiles/torpedos to a high priority and having them produced asap automatically is not really all that different from the current situation of all alenium+' date=' all the time. I might wonder why my spanking new set of armour isn't ready yet or something and go investigate, I suppose, but that'd be about it since I wouldn't change the order priorities. As far as financial resources go, I'd rather be docked the money when I get back to base and rearm; as far as the resource of time goes, I'd rather have aircraft take longer to re-arm depending on the tech level of the missiles/torpedos and the number of engineers available. In the latter, yeah, a "prioritise repairs" button would be useful, since you react to alien incursions and not act.[/quote']

That's fair enough - you'd basically just automating the process further. I'd mainly just been thinking of how it might be done broadly within the extant system; if it were going to happen (and I'm not going to hold my breath!) I imagine adding a 'standing order' system would be easier than adding in additional bits and pieces to replicate that automatically.

I don't think I'd be crazy to suggest that most of us posting in this thread have a long list of what's wrong with XCom '12' date=' but did I like the foundry projects. The one you got for mutons was extra ammo capacity for ground battles, iirc, and having something like that here would be welcome for both ground and air combat (laser+ guns for gc, cannons for air). It's true that passives run the risk of being stupendously dull - I don't think anyone's ever said "Hell yeah, +1.5% damage with laser weapons! Awright!" and then pumped their fist after playing something like Gal Civ 2 or most games with talent trees - but it can be done.[/quote']

I think the trick with passive bonuses is to actually make them make qualitivative differences to what you can do. The ammo example from Xcom 2012 is a good one, since it interacts interestingly with some of the class abilities which make it much more than just increasing the number of shots you can make before you reload. You could definately do some interesting things with air combat (reduced cooldown time on evasive roll; afterburner speed bonus; etc.).

Maybe in the expansion pack?

[Ol' Stinky]

Maybe in the expansion pack?

I'll drink to that.

[Ishantil]

Personally, I think that the laser weapons are too expensive and take too long to build.

I can build half a base for the cost of a scatter laser, 5 laser rifles and 2 laser carbines.