Sniper scope action

[tirlimpimpim]

Hi guys,

I was kind of wondering wouldn't it be logical to make an action for a sniper rifle, which would uncover fog of war in a narrow cone in front of the sniper for some TU? Like he would actually stop ant look through the scope, thus seeing farther until his line of sight is obstructed. It would change scouting a little, but add some more fun to sniper rifles and some new tactical possibilities.

Such thing shouldn't be hard to implement so yeah, what do you think?

edit: oh and there must be a researchable Alerium rocket for rocket launcher because its just logical!

Edited March 29, 2013 by tirlimpimpim
ideas flow man

[StellarRat]

Hi guys,

I was kind of wondering wouldn't it be logical to make an action for a sniper rifle, which would uncover fog of war in a narrow cone in front of the sniper for some TU? Like he would actually stop ant look through the scope, thus seeing farther until his line of sight is obstructed. It would change scouting a little, but add some more fun to sniper rifles and some new tactical possibilities.

Such thing shouldn't be hard to implement so yeah, what do you think?

I don't think it would add much to the game honestly. I think we can assume that the Xenonauts have field glasses and other scouting aids on them they just aren't shown in the equipment, just like flashlights, water and rations.

[tirlimpimpim]

Off course not much, but it would enable the natural benefits of sniper rifles in open environments. Say in a city its logical that a sniper could see down the street way further than scopless soldier.

[erutan]

That's an interesting idea. It could happen automatically after a turn you haven't moved on (e.g. no hw penalty) as the character is "setup" already.

It'd make it easier to cover a long street, but open the sniper up to being flanked/killed unless there was a spotter with them, making the class more distinct and helping balance the sniper rifle from being too OP perhaps.

[GizmoGomez]

I do like the sniper-spotter duo. It'd add much more to the game, as far as roles that can be filled imho.

[crusherven]

I kinda feel like snipers are strong enough already. I already have spotters for my snipers: the rest of my team. Other weapons are mediocre beyond normal LOS but the sniper rifle can reach out and touch.

[erutan]

This would actually end up being a nerf I believe - the line of sight would be MUCH narrower. So yes, they could cover a certain corridor without having a spotter go ahead, but they're basically blind to everything else (and moving defensively massively impacts their accuracy). Unless you're absolutely sure you have covered an area, you will need to keep a CQB or AR person near them.

Having a spotter increases their utility by broadening their sight range, so that combo is still there, but there also the consideration of to a "guard their back" person. If the sniper is aiming down a block, an alien ~1/4 of the way down the street could walk towards them and not be seen due to the the sight being so narrow.

[a_beorning]

I have similar idea, but not only for sniper rifles: http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/4327-Equipment-personal-optic-devices

[svidangel]

Mmm, I would love anything that gives some extra visual range to my overly myopic troops. Whats that thar. The far side of the street you say? Why, I can't tell if that's a granny or an alien trying to cross. Best shoot it to be safe.

[crusherven]

I may be in the minority on this, but I feel like both ground combat and air combat are in a pretty good place right now, at least in terms of features. It's fairly simple, but the terrain and enemy AI and available weapons allow for some tactical flexibility. We need some bugs fixes and balancing but we don't need new features. This looks like classic feature creep to me. Let's say they add this feature. Well, it's not really fair to give only snipers a special ability--heavy weapons specialists and assaultmen should have unique features, too! This gives the player more tactical options! What could possibly go wrong?!

My main objection is that it pushes the game's release back and means another thing to implement, test, and debug. We're really close to beta. IMO this isn't the time to re-imagine combat by giving out new abilities. I don't mean that in response to the relatively simple OP, but to some of the subsequent suggestions.

Edited March 29, 2013 by crusherven

[a_beorning]

We have, or developers have. But it is bugged, so I didn't try it.

See assets/weapons/misc/combatshield.png and assets/weapons/misc/assaultshield.png

[tirlimpimpim]

Well, it's not really fair to give only snipers a special ability--heavy weapons specialists and assaultmen should have unique features, too! This gives the player more tactical options! What could possibly go wrong?!

I concur on balancing issue, however this one is not a supernatural thing, they have scopes on their rifles which increase accuracy, however, as a by product, they also increase the visual range, though in a very narrow fashion. At the end of the day, spending say 20TU's just to look at some direction a little further sounds like a fair game to me

Edited March 30, 2013 by tirlimpimpim

[erutan]

It seems like it'd be a pretty straightforward thing to code in - if a sniper doesn't have the HWP penalty for accuracy then their vision range is zoom instead of normal.

I think having that toggle just tied to whether they are "deployed" or not makes sense - if they aren't stabilized with their eyes on the scope they should get the accuracy debuff. Not sure I'd want it as a special ability.

[Max_Caine]

If it cost a small amount of TUs to do that, why would I not have a few backrange snipers call targets for everyone from a secure position? I mean, even with a cost of, say, 10 TUs per sight extension, I could easily do this three times (30TU) using diagonal movement (6TU per move) (18 TU) in three different directions (1 TU per click - 3 TU plus say 3 more for adjustment) (6TU) with the average starting private (TU being between 55-59). With a chinook you might think that a waste of squaddies, but when you get onto tier 2 or tier 3 dropships who can carry more squaddies? It would be no trouble at all.

Edited March 30, 2013 by Max_Caine

[erutan]

I'm also thinking of a very narrow cone. 1/4? of the total width someone sees now? Enough that it feels different but isn't just an automatic advantage. Not sure if you can leave blind spots in spinning - I think this feature might rely on that.

@max, with my version in the post above you wouldn't be able to have the extended vision in any turn that you moved in.

[crusherven]

As someone mentioned in the other thread, though, it sounds like a feature that would probably slow a game down that is already pretty long.

[tirlimpimpim]

As someone mentioned in the other thread, though, it sounds like a feature that would probably slow a game down that is already pretty long.

Well on one hand this kind of thing would only be optional tactics, so one still can stroll through the maps as fast one wants, on the other hand such feature might save lives! I mean I just lost a colonel, and she was smart, and brave, and blond - full of life, with high hopes and dreams, but she ate a plasma canon ball by scouting down the street, so yeah, mr. speedy, I think we could slow down a little bit...

[tirlimpimpim]

I'm also thinking of a very narrow cone. 1/4? of the total width someone sees now?

I was thinking more like making it somewhat realistic thus quite narrow. On the net I have found such parameters of a random scope:

• Magnification: 4X

• Field of View @ 100 yards: 27.2'

but since its imperial measurements I don't know what they mean and how to convert to angles from yards and sticks

you can see more examples here.

[Gauddlike]

The other thing is that once anyone spots an enemy it can be engaged by your whole squad.

Assuming your sniper can spot from an extended range that means your whole squad can engage from an extended range.

As Max says if it is a mode that can be toggled you have an untouchable scout, even if the angle of view is limited.

If it is simply tied into the heavy weapon penalty so it automatically happens when not moving then you have an even better scout (who is still untouchable by the enemy) as turning on the spot doesn't affect that penalty.

If the angle is so narrow that it isn't useful for spotting enemies (remembering you can only look along the eight directions rather than any angle you choose) then where and why would it be used?

[tirlimpimpim]

The other thing is that once anyone spots an enemy it can be engaged by your whole squad. Assuming your sniper can spot from an extended range that means your whole squad can engage from an extended range.

That is true, however at a distances exceeding effective weapon range non snipers would provide only negligible and random impact, thus after sniper would spot an enemy, others could be directed to its location.

If the angle is so narrow that it isn't useful for spotting enemies (remembering you can only look along the eight directions rather than any angle you choose) then where and why would it be used?

Terror missions in cities are a good example where this kind of tactic could be useful, because they have long streets with unobstructed line of sight. In current settings it becomes a little stupid when you can see into the fog of war only a fixed distance which is shorter than enemies, you basically end up in situations where even though there is nothing in between you and the enemy, but you cant see it, when he does see you, and that results in some awkward gameplay where your soldiers are slaughtered just because they stepped into field of view of an alien, and there are no existing tactics how to circumvent this except for saving and loading which is gay...

So this proposal to include scope action in my mind would enhance the gameplay and by providing a legitimate way to perform some scouting.

[Gauddlike]

That is true, however at a distances exceeding effective weapon range non snipers would provide only negligible and random impact, thus after sniper would spot an enemy, others could be directed to its location.

A couple of additional snipers and a rocket launcher or two wouldn't be negligible, especially when they could attack from outside of the range of retaliation.

In current settings it becomes a little stupid when you can see into the fog of war only a fixed distance which is shorter than enemies, you basically end up in situations where even though there is nothing in between you and the enemy, but you cant see it, when he does see you, and that results in some awkward gameplay where your soldiers are slaughtered just because they stepped into field of view of an alien, and there are no existing tactics how to circumvent this except for saving and loading which is gay...

I would prefer to just balance the sight range of aliens and their AI.

Chris has already adjusted the alien sight range down so it is closer to your own troops in order to balance the issue you mention.

Some armour types (and possibly alien types) like the scout armours will also have extended sight ranges.

I feel that altering the balance so that you can see and engage the aliens from far outside of their combat range is just as bad as if they could do the same to you.

I also don't feel that a tight angle which can only face in the eight directions would be particularly useful, you would need to be in the perfect position in order to see anything anyway.

[erutan]

Using it as an ability/toggle seems too OP. Not saying it's unrealistic, but scouting in XCOM should involve danger.

re: gaud - I think a sniper that is on their scope should have blind spots. If you're not covering a specfic area (this might make choosing cover more of a thoughtful thing) then you need someone else to spot those near-mid enemies... leave your support out at your own peril. It'd give the weapon a more unique feel (granted only being able to sight down 8 directions is abritrary, but you can see what where you're covering in game).

[Max_Caine]

It's wrong to say there aren't any tactics one can employ beyond save-scumming. Hunter Scout cars do have an equal sight range to aliens, so leading the way with a Hunter is a very valid tactic. Basic-armoured troops have a sight range is one less than aliens, so the difference between the two re. triggering reaction fire isn't that significant.

[erutan]

I don't think this is necessary, but if it's tied to the HWP and it's a genuinely narrow field of vision I think it would be interesting because it can easily lead to your snipers being flanked and killed without adequate support. However properly supported a sniper boosts your squads awareness of a very small area of the map. Keep in mind most weapons won't be very accurate at range anyways.

Sometimes I'll split my two squads of 4 into a squad of 2 and 6, with the 2 holding a flank - maybe this would become moot in the end game.

[Gauddlike]

If the view range is wide enough to be useful then it is also wide open to abuse.

Any time you can kill the enemy without having to risk getting into danger yourself is a loss of tension.

A couple of rocket launchers will make short work of anyone you can pick out with your sniperscout (they have a 40 tile range atm) with the enemy having no chance to retaliate.

Of course you could give the enemy the same ability for balance, the screams of frustration from players who were getting consistently picked off with no chance of retaliation would be deafening though.

The suggested drawback that you would be easier to flank is incredibly situational and would rely on the player making bad moves for it to come into play.

Sure if you push the sniperscout forward too far then it may get hit in the side if you haven't bothered to clear the flanks first.

Maybe if you left it too far back, it was alone, no one was covering the flank, and the AI is smart enough to try and circle you then it would potentially get shot at.

If it didn't die in the first turn then the penalty goes away again as you now know the flanker is there.

I would suggest that the extended view range intended to be granted by occupying an elevated position, proper use of scout armour, use of vehicles to scout, and properly supporting your scouts as well as your snipers is a much better combination of tactics for scouting than the suggested scope.