Regarding "Endgame" and new developments.

[453074]

I have earlier commented on the damaging effect the "endgame counter" to the true enjoyment of exploring a lifethreatening situation, where survival is at stake.

These pointers as in Research is marked "Plot" is a tool for the developers, it should not be laid open to the gamers.... its almost like the game has to be rushed through,

which of course could be helpfull to the gamers, as they can complete the game, before you actually can build up forces for a "reaL warfare".

Gamers who really need guidence  to play the game; Let them gain acces to a techtree, so they can cut the corners they cannot manage in a real game, where you have 

real decissionmaking to do... and to live with delays, that a bad choice can cause.

On the financial side of the game; You are already lost, as you have new obstacles to overcome... and very few ressources to do it with.

Potentially a very great game, but do not let the moneysituation starve the game.

kindly Frank

[ovoron]

I agree, using the word "endgame" is breaking both the immersion and the 4th wall. Neither should be done without a very good reason.

[Skitso]

Completely agree. It's too gamey and breaks immersion. Same with the Cleaner progression counter. It should be way more vague rather than exact percentage.

This could of course be made a difficulty level dependant and a toggleable option the same way the enemy health is currently.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Skitso

[Komandos]

19 hours ago, 453074 said:

Let them gain acces to a techtree, so they can cut the corners they cannot manage in a real game, where you have 

real decissionmaking to do... and to live with delays, that a bad choice can cause.

The game has a strategy! This means that the player will have to make choices that may turn out to be a strategic mistake or a strategically correct decision.

[Komandos]

19 hours ago, ovoron said:

I agree, using the word "endgame" is breaking both the immersion and the 4th wall. Neither should be done without a very good reason.

There is an "endgame" in any strategy game. For example: the game "Chess". The "endgame" is the period of the game when the opposing sides have exhausted (used up) the main stock of their resources and capabilities and the outcome of the final battle becomes obvious.

[ovoron]

Have you ever heard of a detective story that kept something like a villain unmasking counter on every page?

[Komandos]

5 hours ago, ovoron said:

Have you ever heard of a detective story that kept something like a villain unmasking counter on every page?

1. There is a page number on "every detective page" and the reader can always see (count) how many pages are left until the end.

2. In games, the final stage of the game is called "endgame" (which literally means "the end of the game"). In books, the final stage of a work of art is called: "culmination".

3. If the game has an initial stage, then the game should have a final one.

[Avaren]

2 hours ago, Komandos said:

1. There is a page number on "every detective page" and the reader can always see (count) how many pages are left until the end.

2. In games, the final stage of the game is called "endgame" (which literally means "the end of the game"). In books, the final stage of a work of art is called: "culmination".

3. If the game has an initial stage, then the game should have a final one.

Counterpoint, in a book the culmination isn't put front-and-center, and if you don't check how many pages the book is, the page number just goes up. Whereas the percentage towards OE (OPPERATION ENDGAME) is a percentage, and it's doubtful that it'll reach say 95%, or 139% or 385.341% and then OE will unlock at that point... It being expressed as a percentage is telling you not just that you've made progress towards the end, but how close to the end you are as well.

[Pietje666]

Operation Endgame will always happen? Or is it more like the doomsday clock? Based on your choices, you can make it happen or avoid it.

[Skitso]

4 hours ago, Komandos said:

1. There is a page number on "every detective page" and the reader can always see (count) how many pages are left until the end.

2. In games, the final stage of the game is called "endgame" (which literally means "the end of the game"). In books, the final stage of a work of art is called: "culmination".

3. If the game has an initial stage, then the game should have a final one.

I refuse to believe you are serious.

Do you really think that whether it's a movie, book or game, it's a more enjoyable experience if you know exactly when it's going to end?

[Komandos]

16 minutes ago, Skitso said:

Do you really think that whether it's a movie, book or game, it's a more enjoyable experience if you know exactly when it's going to end?

1. Flipping through the pages of a book, we always know how many more pages are left. Looking at the games: football, basketball, hockey (others) and listening to the commentator, we always know how much time is left until the end of the game. The main intrigue is not how long the game will last: one hour or an eternity. The main intrigue lies in how the game will end, who will win and with what score. I am in favor of ensuring that the final battle takes place, regardless of whether the player has the opportunity to win the final battle or not.

For example: if the player is destined to lose the game, then let the final battle be an alien attack on the player's bases with endless reinforcements of alien soldiers. While the timer is ticking, the game continues. When the timer ends, either the player flies on the final mission to the aliens, or the aliens fly on the final mission to the player.

2. Personally, I don't like the timer in strategy games. The game should end only with a "knockout" of one of the opponents. (Play to a complete knockout)

[453074]

The most recent war of Xenonauts caliber was World War 2. Just a few weeks after the Pearl Harbor incident, the american military high command tried to push the british to make a landing at

the Calais... as they said; We want this war to end! The british Lord Alan Brooke said in reply; Oh, it will! But not with the outcome we want.

He knew that without sufficient strength... it would end in defeat. The endgame was when the Allies crossed the Rhine... on german national territory!

With an "end game counter" you are taking the realism completely out of the game. You can believe, that YOU are ready, but you cannot know the real strength of the enemy... especially when it is an alien race from outer space... and therefore not know his capacity or capability.

But this is still a great game with a great potential.

kindly Frank

[Pathfinder]

Funny, I though that endgame counter is showing me my own progress in "plot" research and crucial moves on the geoscape (like wiping out cleaners, downing down bomber, and so on). Wondering now if I was so much wrong about it.

[Vitruviansquid]

I think if there was not a percentage counter for cleaner intelligence and the endgame, I think a lot of players would make unhealthy predictions about what's going on in the background. You'd have posts saying, "I guess I hit a dead end in the game, because I can't do anything to advance, but the game isn't throwing anything new at me, either. This game's broken/sucks." It is only acceptable for no counter to exist because you already understand that the game is keeping score for you in the background. So the counter feels unimmersive, but in order to have it hidden, you needed to know that it was there in the first place.

So I think the best option is to make another difficulty setting checkbox to obscure progress counters, as Skitso already proposed.

[453074]

I completely agree to the option on hiding the counter as an option in game settings. Then everyone can have it their way :-)

kindly Frank

[Avaren]

My thoughts would be to remove the %, but still have a counter.

[Sotiris]

A question... I am at 15% endgame, after day 300, and i have fusion weapons... But no progress at all!

This is it, until the final version, or i am missing something to progress?

[Avaren]

After day 200 or so you'll no-longer be seeing new stuff (unless by bad luck you missed something new that could/can spawn before day 200).

[Alienkiller]

Yeah, the Game is atm limited in Days, because the Mid- and Endgame are still in big WIP.

For the Endgame the Devs wanna bring in more Content (see Kickstarter-Page). As an Founder and from beginning on Betatester I and the others hope too, that an variable Endgame will come like it was planed (not only the atm Standard Win / Lose-Ending).

Therefore the Timelimiter have to be doubled as Minimum. Otherwise we will only get the already integrated Standard Win / Lose-Ending.

[Dren608]

I liked the original X-com from the 1990's scoring charts. IT let you know how the "world" perceived you actions as you progressed. It showed enemy score and Your Score, as long as yours was higher or equal to the Aliens panic wouldn't go up. They had story elements to let you know when you got to the point of "ending" the game. I would prefer that, the Story elements can be preserved in the Xenopedia, The counter on screen just seems to be telling me I'm not smart enough to know what's happening. You can always have the Scientist giving you percentage chances of progress in dialogues, etc. When I see those percentages I fell like I'm playing a fight game from Nintendo, or X-Box. Just doesn't seem the right kind of feel for a game like this.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Dren608
spelling

[Komandos]

Instead of displaying progress using %%, you can change the color of regions on the planet map.

 

Alien activity (panic) can be displayed in a similar way

Edited December 19, 2023 by Komandos

[gG-Unknown]

Showing a percentage "done" is reasonable for Beta test. Not for a gameplay focused at researching unknown. When you know how much unknown left, it is rather known then unknown. Which means, gamebrakeing feature.

Perhaps make chapters, to create feeling of progress. When you read a book, there are chapters which can be described by a sentence. Lets say make

Story Chapters,

when hidden progress counter reach (20%,40%, ... ) then player receives a screen like research - Picture and a text, which wraps current progress and add some questions about future. Perhaps it  could  explain new payment method, or introduce general gameplay changes which comes with the new Chapter. Like orbital bombardment. Perhaps a chapter screen could offer a decision buttons like : Our organization struggle to get finance so we will (player choose one option) :

1. encourage local supporters to inform as about resource convoys (more ambush misions)

2. work with governments to send us data from their military radars (ability to see UFO out of radar reach, in case it is on cooperating state)

3. work with governments to send their military aircraft against small ufo (once per week call for support)

Edited December 19, 2023 by gG-Unknown

[Pietje666]

I think eventually the PLOT text at the research topics will be removed when we get closer to the final build. So you won't know if you're progressing in the right direction. 

[harrison314a]

I don't think labeling research as PLOT is wrong. Even so, the player learns from the task given by the game. This way it seems quite cold to me.