Xenonauts vs Xcom Enemy Unknown

[forever rookie]

Demo doesn't show strategic layer, doesn't allow you to built facilities,(oh and doesn't allow you to check base facilities besides barracks and lab) has two missions of which one is tutorial and other is showcasing three alien species AND its set on easy difficult. How do I know last one? I wouldn't call that good representative.

http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?139306-How-to-change-Difficulty-Settings-here This. Its set to 0 and 3 seems to be impossible.

(Apparently its much more interesting when you put difficulty higher on second mission Gee, I wonder why)

Also, I haven't played original xcom's demo, but original's game missions have that feeling of mystery that hooks you in. Thats fun thing with older simpler games, they have that air around them that hooks you in. You rarely get that feeling in AAA games or even indie games.(for example, I don't get exact same feeling from Xenonauts either)

I was hyped for the game, I even pre-ordered too despite the obvious simplifications (they are no matter what the developer said/says).

But the demo just killed it. I like both the original and Apocalypse (that I play realtime) so the lack of TUs is not the lone issue here. The issue is that they force on me too much stuff, preventing me to do the tweaks that I want to do: why are the weapons class restricted (so stupid)? Why is the inventory so limited? And also why are all the rookies identical, are they clones? If on top of that you add the TUs removal, the final result is so rigid, feels so pre-built. There are a lot of good "fixed" turn based games, like Advance Wars and Final Fantasy Tactics, but they aren't X-COM for a reason.

(Also the combat system leaves me perplexed, but that's another story.)

So disappointed. They chose to make this AAA budget game and had to narrow the design potential to sell.. why? Just make a low budget game and keep the good stuff (and improve it). Man it hurts.

[XenoMask]

Umm, firstly, you didn't know about inventory?(and its that way because inventory management in original game was pretty over complex I mean, really, did you ever use all those small pockets and such?) What do you even lose from change of inventory system besides stocking it up full of ammo and grenades? Rookies identical? You mean stat wise or what? They clearly looked more similar in first game...

Also, am I like only person in the world who plays Apocalypse turn based?

[Donkeyfumbler]

I too thought the demo was underwhelming, but mainly because it was so short, especially given that it was 5.5gb in size!

I really think it was very difficult to tell just how good or average (I really don't think it will be bad) the game actually is from what was on offer.

I quite liked some of the cut scenes and back ground story - it makes the fight for earth far clearer and dramatic than the original or Xenonauts as it stands (btw, is there going to be some kind of intro, background in the finished game?).

The creeping forward waiting to spot the aliens was very familiar (in a good way), but the maps in the demo were very small - I hope some will be much larger. Similarly, all of the playthroughs and videos seem to be done on night maps. One of the things I liked about the original was the decision of whether you could afford to wait for daylight to do the mission and I'm not sure whether that exists in XCOM:EU.

I don't much care about there being a lack of inventory - rejigging stuff can get dull fairly quickly and the move/shoot or move/move choice is fine with me too - it's just a simpler way of how I play UFO/Xeno anyway. Not sure about overwatch being able to detect 360 degree movement though (if that's true).

Still not enough info on how you allocate research, engineering and other resources to have much of an opinion.

My pre-order still stands anyway.

[XenoMask]

That 5.5 comes from that that game file contains all the in game movies for some reason. Why? I guess for same reason why Xenonauts has image files for content not in game yet?

Anyway, yeah, there are gameplay videos of far larger maps. And there is early screenshot of mission during time of day that isn't light, so I'd assume that some are in game.

From what I understand, you can research things only one at time and you speed it up by building more labs or something, but I'm not sure exactly.

Edited September 25, 2012 by XenoMask

[forever rookie]

Umm, firstly, you didn't know about inventory?(and its that way because inventory management in original game was pretty over complex I mean, really, did you ever use all those small pockets and such?) What do you even lose from change of inventory system besides stocking it up full of ammo and grenades? Rookies identical? You mean stat wise or what? They clearly looked more similar in first game...

Also, am I like only person in the world who plays Apocalypse turn based?

I don't think the classic inventory is complex. At all. The grid system with the items of various sizes, is an intelligent and intuitive design to give a player the ability to personalyze the loadout while keeping the balance. And tinkering with it is among the (fun) things that make X-COM different (special that is) from the other TBS games.

The new inventory is: "you can carry ONE extra item; choose a- wait, actually you can't choose, rookies can carry only a frag grenade". Wtf?! So worse then the grid.

The rookies stats are fixed:

HP 3+1

Aim 65

Will 40

Defense 0

Also

I did an Apocalypse campaign in Turn mode too.. but it isn't good because the game is balanced for realtime play. The damage of the weapons is set low because it is normal in realtime to be hit a lot of times; but when you switch in turn mode you get hit a lot less, making most of the weapons simply not threatening.

It's in the numbers. The way the damage work in ufo/apocalypse is the same, but the weapons damage values are different (way lower in apocalypse) and they also reduced the damage random factor (0-200% in ufo to 0-150, or 50-150 I don't remember exactly, in apocalypse) to further allow the units to bear multiple hits.

With a balance like that a lot of the tension in turn mode is gone. The only threats remaining are the insta-kill ones, like brainsuckers and poppers.

Edited September 25, 2012 by forever rookie

[XenoMask]

On rookies being only able to carry frag grenade, I'm pretty sure frag grenade is only extra item you start with, others have to be researched

Can't comment on stats as I didn't check, I'll check whether they are same in final game then. Either way doesn't really matter since they won't stay as rookies for long unless they die.

Also, personalize? Unless you went for special tactics like suicide grenading, how did you personalize them besides giving them guns and ammo? And medikit/stun rod/psi amp?

Also, I don't get it, I still play Apocalypse on turn based and I find it to have lots of tension.

[forever rookie]

Come on...

In the original you can equip a rookie with any combination of the following equipment, until you have space an strength enough:

- Pistol

- Rifle

- Heavy Cannon (different sets of ammo)

- Auto-cannon (different sets of ammo)

- Rocket Launcher (different sets of ammo)

- Grenades

- Smoke grenades

- High Explosives

- Proximity grenades

- Stun rod

- Electro-flares

(Left out the researched items on purpose.)

A rocket launcher equipped rookie fills a different role than an auto-canno+IN ammo equipped one, or than a pistol+stun rod+lots of grenades one, or simply than a Rifle equipped one. If you don't care or just use everything in the same way, doesn't negate the fact it lets you personalize a lot the loadout.

Equipping options for rookies in the new game:

- Assault rifle

- ONE frag grenade.

About Apocalype: that's the way the game is balanced; but you're not required to play like that, play it as you enjoy it of course.

Edited September 25, 2012 by forever rookie

[XenoMask]

Hey, you can equipment them with armor and some other slot too if I recall right. Oh and there is pistol slot too!

Speaking of which, I'm actually wondering why every class has pistols when only sniper is one to use them?(considering that lots of feature changes in XCOM: EU are about simplifying some features that were unnecessary even if they were cool, like for example, in original game you had multiple bases, but you mainly used them for radar coverage and intercepting, so XCOM: EU has only one base but you can get radar coverage with satellites and there are interceptor bases.)

Other changes are balance changes, for example only one grenade because otherwise you could destroy all cover and just wait enemy to come to kill them easily. On holding only grenade or other items? Well, thats another kind of balance change and its also for making classes more unique I guess.

Huh, can I get list of things that prove its balanced for RTS? .-. I never noticed that myself. I mean, I knew that poppers and brainsuckers are easier in RT, but I thought point of them were to be kind of like chrysalids, aka "OH CRAP D:" moments.

[Max_Caine]

XenoMask, I'm guessing the pistol is for the "click-click" moment for situations like, uh, the heavy has spent all his ammo on suppression, and there's a chryssalid bearing down on him ringin' the ole dinner bell.

[XenoMask]

Hmm, true I suppose.

[gnarly]

XenoMask, I'm guessing the pistol is for the "click-click" moment for situations like, uh, the heavy has spent all his ammo on suppression, and there's a chryssalid bearing down on him ringin' the ole dinner bell.

Correct, as reloading is a full turn.

[boredcanadian]

Xcom had so much for you to do, but Final Fantasy Tactics was epic. Its impossible to choose between the two and I still have to play through both every few years.

At this point I am ecstatic to have found Xenonauts and cannot wait to play but I am excited for Xcom:EU because it will offer a new experience, and hopefully it doesnt suck.

[TrashMan]

The two games are different beasts

The new X-Com doesn't have Time Units, rather you have 2 moves per turn. You can move and shoot or move and move.

Also, you don't have to worry about ammo and your soldiers are specialized to the extreeme (so a class can only use the weapons and abilities native to itself)

All in all less flexible.

Your heavy guy cannot ssut take a sniper rifle from a fallen sniper.

You cannot move, and when you spot an enemy whip out a pistol, fire and duck back (because you had enoug TU's).

Also, only one base.

[alcari]

Also, also, it seems (from the demo, but correct if you have better sources) that we won't actually a full globe as our playground, but merely get/have to chose between a hand full of missions each time? The demo had this "Help north-america OR help asia" thing going on, that would really, really ruin the game for me.

[Gorzahg]

Also, also, it seems (from the demo, but correct if you have better sources) that we won't actually a full globe as our playground, but merely get/have to chose between a hand full of missions each time? The demo had this "Help north-america OR help asia" thing going on, that would really, really ruin the game for me.

I think that how it works, at least that's the impression I got anyway.

[Max_Caine]

Well, yes and no (but more yes than no). Yes, "missions" will regularly pop up where you get to pick from 2-3 countries which one you want to assist. As the satellite network grows more complete, the globe becomes more playgroundy as you can pick up UFO signatures and shoot them down.

[rs311]

I only hope Xenonauts comes out soon because I tried the XCOMEU demo and I didn't like it, I already know it won't be able to give me my X-COM fix.

So, Xenonauts I choose you.

I've been following both XCOM:EU and Xenonauts closely and personally I also go with the latter, XCOM:EU just looks and feels too different from how I remember UFO:EU, at times even laughable. While the original was like Japanese psychological horror that gave you goosebumps from your very first turn, XCOM:EU looks and feels too action-oriented. I really couldn't see myself sitting down and taking my time with all the strategic considerations, like wondering what might be behind that bush, are my soldiers going to get mowed down while walking past that window or opening that door, or that damned Chryssalid is going to zombify my soldier no matter how well I've got him covered and reserved time units for reaction fire.

But to each his own.

Edited September 27, 2012 by rs311

[XenoMask]

Also, also, it seems (from the demo, but correct if you have better sources) that we won't actually a full globe as our playground, but merely get/have to chose between a hand full of missions each time? The demo had this "Help north-america OR help asia" thing going on, that would really, really ruin the game for me.

Actual game does have geoscape, why they didn't show it or strategic layer beats me. Complexity scares mainstream people?

^Umm, Japanese psychological horror? Original was scary, but isn't Japanese Psychological horror about seeing horribly mutilated demons based on your psyche or something? Thats what Silent Hill taught me

[rs311]

Umm, firstly, you didn't know about inventory?(and its that way because inventory management in original game was pretty over complex I mean, really, did you ever use all those small pockets and such?) What do you even lose from change of inventory system besides stocking it up full of ammo and grenades? Rookies identical? You mean stat wise or what? They clearly looked more similar in first game...

Also, am I like only person in the world who plays Apocalypse turn based?

I think part of the fun of the original UFO was that even if you didn't use those shoulder/knee pockets, the option was there if you wanted to. Taking away those customization options meant that the scope is reduced and for some people that makes or breaks the game for them.

[rs311]

Actual game does have geoscape, why they didn't show it or strategic layer beats me. Complexity scares mainstream people?

^Umm, Japanese psychological horror? Original was scary, but isn't Japanese Psychological horror about seeing horribly mutilated demons based on your psyche or something? Thats what Silent Hill taught me

No, I'm talking about movies like 'The Grudge', where the horror is not blood and gore per se (though that's not to say that that movie didn't have its fair share of it) but tapping into that innate part of the human psyche that makes you afraid to get up at night to go to the bathroom, look into the mirror, answer your mobile/cell phone even though apparently it's your friend or family member that you think is calling you, get on the bus and looking out through the window or even just opening your closet at home.

Edited September 27, 2012 by rs311

[XenoMask]

Oh so kind of like Slenderman?

[rs311]

Yes, and I do wonder if the guys at Firaxis drew inspiration for their Thin Man alien from the Slenderman...

[XenoMask]

Eh, like I said, its probably inspired by stuff I listed in previous post when I talked about what UFO lore stuff Thinmen are similar to.

[sectoid]

be it xenonauts or

xcom enemy unknown or

ufo2 extraterrestrials,

i shall patronise all 3 titles.

[phsjr]

I'll admit it, I thought the writing was on the wall for Xenonauts when XCOM:EU by Firaxis was announced and positive previews started to pop-up. But after playing the demo I am not convinced that EU is going satisfy old XCom grognards out there. It seems to be missing a good portion of what made XCom special, particularly soldier inventory and large squads. It also doesn't feel as nostalgic because it's so different (probably not important for new players but it means a lot to me)

I can say without a doubt that I will buy (wait, I already did!) and play Xenonauts because of these omissions and concessions.