Air Combat, wishes from the field + some RW history that might be of intrest.

[Pappystein]

I know that this will likely not be addressed by anyone but modders themselves. That being said, I am not going to try to mod this game myself (I have too much time invested in other games dealing with air-combat at this level of abstraction where I have a direct impact on the actual rules of that game.) This is a rather long post

Given the height of technology, given the breadth of the invasion, and given what was actually out there, Air combat leave a lot to be desired, even in a turn based game like this. Mind you I LOVE this game, I am just voicing things that I would like to see improved by the modder community.

1) AI, The Game engine seem to think the best thing to do in combat is run right into the enemies primary fire arc. In USAF parlance (and US Navy Project Bumblebee nomenclature) this is called Pursuit Course or Collision Course guidance. It was the primary form of guidance for the 1st Generation of Surface or Air to Air Missiles (SAMs and AAMs.) It suffers from a) being wholly in-efficient in use of fuel and b) you always end up in front of your target or directly behind your target where you have a lower percent probability of kill. I doubt that anyone can change the AI but it will be something that will bug me until the end of time.

2) Using non copyrighted names for aircraft that actually existed. I can't speak for Mikoyan i Gurevich (the i is a Russian abbreviation for 'and' hence MiG not MIG nor Mig design bureau or OKB,) but the USAF is who sets the designation of US fighter planes. Therefore no copyright exists on any official USAF Designation (which includes the popular name.) It is considered public domain. RE Russian Aircraft, All fighters are ODD NUMBERED, ALL BOMBERS/Transports etc are EVEN NUMBERED... This applies even today with the Su-34 Fullback (sure it is an Su-27 derivative but since it is a ground attack aircraft first it has an even number.) Of course with the Russian Aircraft, the VVS is the final owner of any Designation and any Popular name (there are rarely popular names assigned so calling a MiG-31 a Foxhound, a NATO code word, is completely legit.) It gets messy with the post Soviet Aircraft designations as very few of them are "Official" (EG there is no Su-35, just the Su-27M or the new production Su-27BM, There is no Su-30/no Indian Su-30MKI. Rather per the VVS the Su-30MKI is the Su-27PUKI (who wants a plane with a designation of pookie or pukey!)

I would suggested that 4 Aircraft be available to prior to alien tech aircraft, US F-16C Fighting Falcon or alternatively the F-17C

Cobra, Soviet MiG-29D Fulcrum for the close in aircraft. Long Range hitters should be the US F-14C Tomcat (which can also

double as a regular fighter by swapping Torpedos for Sparrows) and the Soviet MiG-31D Foxhound, which should have 4

"Torpedoes" and two "Aphids", with no ability to swap but fastest speed for all fighters. Turn speed should be F-16,

MiG-29A/F-17, F-14C, then MiG-31. Max Speed should be F-16/F-17, then MiG-29/F-14C, then MiG-31 (MiG-31 being the

fastest of course.)

2a) Setting aircraft to un-realistic values. The non-copyrighted MiG-31 Foxhound only has two weapon pylons? Not 4 on the Fuselage + 4 on the wings! Mind you the 4 wing pylons are for Drop Tanks + R-60 [NATO AA-8 Aphid] which is like a smaller faster shorter ranged sidewinder. The Non-Copyrighted F-16 Fighting Falcon only has 2 weapon pylons and a Gatling gun that is more damaging than the missiles will ever be?!

I figure I better give some good feedback here, however I am the first to admit I have not taken a look under the hood as it were

to see how the game actually dose any of the below... so this is just a generalization

1) Lower the strength of all the Weapons, ESP the later upgrades!

2) Add the following additional standard missiles, AIM-9J Sidewinder (US), AIM-7F Sparrow (US), R-60M, R-27R [AA-10A

Alamo MR], and replace both the Phoenix and the R-33 [AA-9 Amos] with a highly modified "Torpedo."

3) Greatly lower the amount of damage each shot out of the Gatling gun does

3a) Greatly increase the lock/guide chance for the AIM-9 Sidewinder and the R-60M [AA-8 Aphid] from the stock in Game

Sidewinder, Lower damage by 15%

4) AIM-7 Sparrow and R-27R are both Radar Guided and must be guided all the way in flight. Give them a long lock on

range but make it easy to break the lock (IE the Very Small scout will likely not get hit unless the player is firing from

multiple angles. Make it so 10 Sparrow/Apex would bring down a corvette, and 1 hit would bring down a regular

fighter 2 for a Heavy fighter light scout, 4 for a regular scout etc.)

4 sub topics)On the F-14C Super Tomcat, the 4 of the 6 Sparrow locations could be swapped for "Torpedo" when they

become available (Don't get them from the start.) 2 Wing locations would always be Sidewinder and 2 Wing locations

would always be Sparrow.

On the MiG-29, Two pylons for R-27R 4 Pylons for R-60M

5) Evolve missiles to AIM-9L Sidewinder, AIM-9M Sidewinder, AIM-9R Sidewinder as new warheads developed (That traces

Real World Development through the 1990 as far as the Designations go.) AIM-7 would go, AIM-7M, AIM-7R, AIM-7S,

R-27 would go R-27ER [AA-10 Alamo D ER], R-27ERE, and then R-27M. Torpedo designations would stay the same.

Damage would be reduced on each step, as currently it is too easy late in the game to take down a Battleship with 2

Marauders and 1 Corsair/Saracen (straight or modded.)

6) Greatly reduced effectiveness for guns. Currently Late game guns for air combat are WAYY to OP. Each stage of

improvement should increase damage, range and accuracy but in much smaller steps. Currently It is too easy to take

down big ships with just Corsairs.... That isn't right in my mind.

6a) Create new Gun, the Russian GSh-301. Most accurate Gun, Has 140 rounds, each round does fair ammount of

damage and has more range than the Gatling gun. This should be allowed for a replacement on the F-16, The F-17

and the MiG-29, The F-14 and the MiG-31 are more literally built around their guns so they are harder to replace.

6b) Create new Gun, the Russian GSh-6-30. This is a 30mm Gatling gun for the MiG-31. It should only have 4 or 5 shots

but they should do as much damage as the entire 140 rounds from the GSh-301. Drawback number 2, It damages

the aircraft each time it is fired(This should be mentioned in the text for the encyclopedia.

Tech Tree for early aircraft development:

Start of game, Player gets basic either F-16 or F-17 Cobra. Weapons at this time are Gatling gun and AIM-9J Sidewinders only.

Tech 1) Radar guidance and the UFO threat

Unlocks AIM-7F for the F-17 Cobra only, unlocks next Tech (even if there is no F-17 Cobra.)

Tech 2) Beyond Visual Range combat with the UFO Threat

Unlocks the R-27R, the AIM-7F (if no F-17 Cobra in game) and the F-14C Tomcat and MiG-29A Fulcrum MiG-29 is

faster turning, F-14 has decidedly longest range so far (at a slight loss of turn on the MiG-29) People forget the

F-14 is actually maneuverable!

Notes: Both the F-14C and the MiG-29 entries should allude to future roles for both aircraft.

Tech 3) Unlocked after first Medium contact is intercepted (need not be shot down.)

Large Caliber weapons for Larger targets

Notes: Unlocks Torpedoes for the F-14C and unlocks the ultimate Human only tech fighter's research

Tech 4) A longer ranged method of bringing Torpedoes to your target UFOs.

Unlocks MiG-31D Foxhound.

Issues I do not know enough to answer on my own-

I do not know how evolved the actual Air Combat routine is in this game but it seem that different aircraft have different turn radii based on set speed. If this were to include speed Bleed-off, that would be awesome as we could actually replicate the faster INITIAL turn rate of the F-17 Cobra over the F-16 Falcon, but the F-16 easily has the best SUSTAINED turn rate of any of these aircraft at most speeds. If game models Ps energy bleed in game then we could successfully model the ill named Pugachev's Cobra (Viktor Pugachev decidedly did not develop this maneuver even if it IS under contention if it was a Sukhoi or MiG OKB pilot who came up with it and it's uses.)

I do not know if there is some sort of run-time to determine if a target is "locked" beyond the simple forward counter for arming weaps.... This would be important for Radar guided weapons on nimble targets

Sorry if this rambles. Sorry if my formatting did not make this easy to read (I spent a lot of time trying to get things to line up and they don't appear to do so in the forum itself

Please feel free to provide feedback. Please feel free to rip the ideas off for any mod you may be developing. Just please let me know if you are using my Ideas (I could care less about the credit, I just want to play with these ideas used.)

[dr.zli]

your information is awesome and one can clearly see that the aircraft are your passion, only thing is, everything you see in the game is there because of the balance, speed, pylons, everything. It does not reflect reality. Also, names - it's there to reflect these are modified aircraft for shooting down UFOs, that's why they have different designations and names. Hope it helps.

[Dranak]

Pretty much every aspect of the air combat system is unrealistic, but works as a game mechanic.

[Max_Caine]

Pappystein, modders have already done this. There's a modder (SoloA) who specifically made a whole bunch of real-world aircraft to fit into the game a while ago, the XNT total conversion introduces other real-world aircraft into the early game and the Don't Take the Sky From Me mod looks at redeveloping air combat with more missiles.

EDIT: Just a question though. This is a sci-fi game. So where's the sci-fi if it's all real-world aircraft?

[Huntota]

EDIT: Just a question though. This is a sci-fi game. So where's the sci-fi if it's all real-world aircraft?

In the UFOs they shoot.

But seriously, the only major complaint about air combat is that i can't set my fighters to do anything but go face to face with ufo during first interception. Not even that - they for some reason don't fly towards the ufo itself but towards the point ufo is heading. If that's mig-32, i want him to just close in fast and go away. No need to spend more time caring about where this big dumb ufo is heading. If that's f-17s, i want them to take the enemy from behind. When the target UFO is slower, it is certainly possible. If i survive closing in with enough evading, i can get behind the UFO and then shoot it all i want with gatlings. So, why not start with it?

[Dranak]

You can manually plot flight courses for your planes, they just default to collision courses. If your plane is faster than the UFO, you can start from behind by telling your plane to tail the UFO instead of engaging, and then engage a few minutes later.

[Huntota]

Really? That's interesting. How do you change the course, tho?

[kabill]

Just click on the plane you want to use and click anywhere on the combat area. They'll move to that point instead.

[Huntota]

God damn it. That makes air combat so much better. Thanks.

[kabill]

Yup. I can only imagine how infuriating it would be to play without doing this!

EDIT: Makes me think we need an air combat guide for beginners stickied at the top of the thread as well as a ground combat one.

[Kiel]

I guess giving in-game aircrafts appropriate speed/turn rate and ammo load out would make them too OP. A pair of Foxtrots with 4 alenium 'torpedoes' and 2 alenium missiles could take down anything but battleship. No need for Corsair/Marauder.

[kabill]

Loadouts aren't really a problem. In my air combat mod, I increased the ammunition on cannons and missiles so that planes have 4-6 missiles and much more ammunition in the guns, but increased UFO HP accordingly. For me, this actually makes the combats more interesting as you don't just destroy everything in a single quick volley.

[Huntota]

EDIT: Makes me think we need an air combat guide for beginners stickied at the top of the thread as well as a ground combat one.

Well yeah, ground combat is usual for all the x-com and ja style games. It's intuitive. Air combat, not so much (at least in the interface department i guess).

[ViniJones]

Somebody wake Dranak up, if hes still into it.

[Pappystein]

Loadouts aren't really a problem. In my air combat mod, I increased the ammunition on cannons and missiles so that planes have 4-6 missiles and much more ammunition in the guns, but increased UFO HP accordingly. For me, this actually makes the combats more interesting as you don't just destroy everything in a single quick volley.

Are you not able to mod the Warhead strength? After all that is part of the reason the whole "MiG-32" got nerfed during Beta. Just make the weaps weaker.... But give the weaps more utility. Eg 'winders right now are nearly useless as everything small can juke them and everything big can soak them. My dumb M61 Vulcan does more damage on an average mission than my state of the art 'winder.

NOT COOL.

I have played a few mods (Currently running XNT) and I see potential. But to me it is still not 'there.' But that is my take on things.

[Pappystein]

I guess giving in-game aircrafts appropriate speed/turn rate and ammo load out would make them too OP. A pair of Foxtrots with 4 alenium 'torpedoes' and 2 alenium missiles could take down anything but battleship. No need for Corsair/Marauder.

That is in-part the problem I am trying to overcome. Currently my GUN is more important than my MISSILE. Now don't get me wrong, in online flight sims my call-sign is often "guns" because it is my preferred weapon. However even *I* the student of advanced maneuvers and un-predicitble flying, realize that the ability to reach out and touch someone with a missile is sometimes advantageous.

That being said, Guns need a major nerf, Torpedoes need a major nerf and 'winders need to actually LOCK ON and guide!

[Pappystein]

Pappystein, modders have already done this. There's a modder (SoloA) who specifically made a whole bunch of real-world aircraft to fit into the game a while ago, the XNT total conversion introduces other real-world aircraft into the early game and the Don't Take the Sky From Me mod looks at redeveloping air combat with more missiles.

EDIT: Just a question though. This is a sci-fi game. So where's the sci-fi if it's all real-world aircraft?

1st, as I have already stated in another reply I am running XNT on one of my computers at this moment. It is OK for air-combat but still left me wanting more.

Re the Designations/names) I should mention that Modified aircraft should have a version iteration, NOT a new designation (New Designation means it is a completely different aircraft, not just a modification.) EG my suggestion to use the un-used (Canceled) F-14C designation for the Super Tomcat, Or the MiG-31D Designation (which was briefly used for an Anti-Satellite version of the Foxhound that was never actually produced beyond prototypes and was not even prototyped until the late 1980s.)

2nd) Technology kind of drib-drabs and over saturates the player for Ground side but there is very little actual tech research for either ground vehicles, or aircraft. Part of my goal is to see Air-combat become more like Ground combat, IE much more research to GET TO the Sci-Fi stuff. I want the Corsair III (F4U/AU Corsair I, A-7 Corsair II,) I want the Marauder, and I want the Saracen in game, but I want balance with them. Currently I see NO BALANCE in the game be it stock or modded for Air combat. I do not know how many times I have won air combat when the computer was giving me less than 20% chance of success. I can tell you it is on the order of 70% of the time.

So to sum up these points into a cohesive whole, If additional early tiers of air combat research are included in a large conversion mod, I, the player, can choose what path is most important (General/balanced tech run, Air tech run or Land tech run.) This gives me the player more choices and in the end adds a more immersive feel to me the game. Yes this would mean all techs would have to have research costs adjusted. I am not saying it isn't a lot of work but for a conversion mod, It just might make this great game MUCH better than it ALREADY is!

[Max_Caine]

So, you've tried my Flying Circus mod then.

[Jukaga]

I've got no problem with the low amount of hardpoints, as the lore explains that the versions seen in-game are re-designed with super-light airframe bodies and extended fuel tanks.

[Dranak]

Somebody wake Dranak up, if hes still into it.

It's been on my to-do list for a while, just haven't gotten around to it.

[Theon Greyjoy]

You'll also have to take into consideration that there are only 4 hardpoint types:

-cannon

-light missiles

-heavy missile (which uses light and heavy missiles)

-superheavy missile

This mean that if you develop a light missile for your Su every US aircraft will also be able to use it and vice versa. Which I think is quite unrealistic, or isnt it? (you seem to be an aircraft enthusiast so you might know better)

Also the combat interface has limitations:

you can put in:

- 1 cannon and 2 missile hardpoints

- 2 cannons

- 4 missiles hardpoints

Amunition per hitpoint is yours to decide though.

You can also put in more hardpoints but they won't be visible in the interface so you won't be able to see them nor control them.

I made

T10 / Su 27 for XNT and Mirage 2000 for XNT, but they are not ment to be realistic (altough all things unrealistic are explained in lore). The aircraft concept is also changed so that 2-3 shots get your plane down. Cannons have been changed so that vulcan does decent damage and quite fast, and the Russian Gsh fires much slower but with much more damage. I've also found away to equip each aircraft with it's own missiles (though at the cost of throwing away the toggling between weapons option). Also F16 and Mig were changed a lot. But remember that I tend to make my aircrafts diverse and balaned rather than realistic.

I am looking forward to changing names though (especially that MIG32 made me itchy for some time now) this:

I should mention that Modified aircraft should have a version iteration

is a very good idea.

[crusherven]

It would be nice if light missiles could lock on or something. Currently they're only of marginal use and inferior to the guns.

[sether]

If we can use kamikaze C4 private, can we use Kamikaze Condor?

[Pappystein]

You'll also have to take into consideration that there are only 4 hardpoint types:

-cannon

-light missiles

-heavy missile (which uses light and heavy missiles)

-superheavy missile

This mean that if you develop a light missile for your Su every US aircraft will also be able to use it and vice versa. Which I think is quite unrealistic, or isnt it? (you seem to be an aircraft enthusiast so you might know better)

Since the various member nations of the world are at-least some-what co-operating, the missile interfaces would be easy to swap around. NATO/US forces have been using STANAG 3910 Interfaces (US Mil-Std 1553B) for years on their military aircraft (STANAG =STAndard NATO AGreement) Even most Russian interfaces will inter-connect, via a simple adapter to Mil-STD 1553/STANG 3910 interfaces. After all, not much goes into swapping a R-73 [AA-11 Archer] for a Python 5 missile on the modern Flankers, it is a case of at most HOURS not weeks of major work. A lot of the infrastructure for this was developed at the end of the Vietnam war with North Vietnam "acquired" literally tons of US made missiles and aircraft. The USSR started to develop its next generation of aircraft (MiG-29/Su-27) based on what they learned both in the sky and on the ground in Vietnam. That explains the aerodynamics as well as the weapon systems on both of those aircraft. Heck, All versions of the AA-2 Atoll Missile are basically direct Copies of various AIM-9 Sidewinder family members (with a lot of cross pollination, taking the best of the various Sidewinders.)

Also the combat interface has limitations:

you can put in:

- 1 cannon and 2 missile hardpoints

- 2 cannons

- 4 missiles hardpoints

That is good to know. I am just now "getting under the hood" so to speak. I am kind of playing with both vanilla and your XNT mod to see what I can and can't do without re-coding a whole ton in the EXE.

Amunition per hitpoint is yours to decide though.

You can also put in more hardpoints but they won't be visible in the interface so you won't be able to see them nor control them.

Good to know. I was playing with the XNT Aircraft.xls and wondering why some changes I made worked and others didn't.

I made T10 / Su 27 for XNT and Mirage 2000 for XNT, but they are not ment to be realistic (altough all things unrealistic are explained in lore). <SNIP> But remember that I tend to make my aircrafts diverse and balaned rather than realistic.

In my play-throughs the Mirage 2000 is the only 'Real world' aircraft that lasts past the Corsair III. Others, might hang on only because I have not recovered enough alien materials or am having cash flow issues at that moment. It's radar FAR outweighs the lack of effectiveness it has vs enemy multi ship formations.

I am looking forward to changing names though (especially that MIG32 made me itchy for some time now) this:

is a very good idea.

MiG-31D is likely the best Foxhound Designation to use. ESP since it was a late 1980s Anti-Satellite interceptor/Ballistic Missile Defense Interceptor concept. It is the closest fit. HOWEVER could I suggest putting an Mirage 2K level Radar on her? The MiG-31 in real life is used as a substitute AWACS in Russian service. The Radar is THAT powerful and that GOOD! MiG-31D was last variant programed with the GSh-6-30 Gatling cannon. In real life that gun will DISTORT the actual MiG-31's airframe if used for too long! (Lets not talk about the MiG-27s that it was also used on!)

F-17 'condor' Would likely be the F-16E or F-16F. Could I suggest changing the graphics to the F-16XL? The in game performance is roughly analogous with the XL variant (faster Speed, longer range, at the cost of a slightly lower turn rate.) F-16A through F-16D designations were already ordered or at least programmed by 1979. Name should revert to Fighting Falcon... Oh the F-16XL airframe has room for 4 AMRAAMs, 4 Sidewinders AND 3 fuel tanks.... Oh and it still has 4 un-used pylons (the XL was the failed competitor to what became the F-15E Strike Eagle.)

Anyway, I hope that is helpful.

[Theon Greyjoy]

It would be nice if light missiles could lock on or something. Currently they're only of marginal use and inferior to the guns.

Yeah, I made sidewinders to have a 3-5 sec lock time (I don't remember the exact time), you have to have the enemy in your fire arch for that time. Also I've made them homing missiles to some extent, so they might actually hit a maneuvering target. I've also increased the number of missiles so you won't be able to fire em all at once.

Since the various member nations of the world are at-least some-what co-operating, the missile interfaces would be easy to swap around

Interesting, but this still poses more problems than benefits. For example Mirage (in the mod) is supposed to be stripped of most its firepower for speed/range (even if those are unrealisticaly high). And if I enable weapon swapping I won't be able to stop it from using sidewinders. Even worse the amount of missiles per hardpoint is set per weapon not per aircraft... so it would get 4 sidewinders instead of 2 ad_astras... impossilbe to balance.

There might be a sidedoor to allow some limited weapon swapping but I would need to test it (not soon).

In my play-throughs the Mirage 2000 is the only 'Real world' aircraft that lasts past the Corsair III.

Yes, I am fully aware of this. My goal was to make a variety of tier 1 aircrafts and also change the t1 air system to a more realstic feel (lowering turn rate, more speed dynamics, more weapons, less plasma resiliance).

My next goal will be either:

- updating t2

- or adding some more t1...even if only as a sub-mod variety pack.

Either way: I would like conventional aircrafts to be the backbone of the games airforce..with Marauders and Corsairs playing the role of supportive heavy crafts. But that's difficult to make.

Firstly because t1 aircrafts are glass cannons ...1 shot from those big alien ships and they are gone... This would look cool in a movie where swarms of F16 attack a mothership. But it can't be played out with only 3 aircrafts per battle .

Secondly even if I did pull it of, a lot of players would be put off cos the aircraft system would then be much to difficult for them. I already spent hours on adjusting auto-resolve values...those are just not moddable enough. Time which I could otherwise spent on advancing my aircraft system.

Also since Im doing this as a part of a mod and not as a mod of itself I just can't make it monstrously difficult cos the player won't have the option to chose wether he wants this difficulty level or not (with Kabill's and Max'es mods you chose by installing them or not; in my case it just comes in with a bigger packet.)

HOWEVER could I suggest putting an Mirage 2K level Radar on her?

I'll consider it. Maybe even changing Mig into what Mirage is atm..and giving Mirage a different role.

Could I suggest changing the graphics to the F-16XL?

Not likely. I can't really match the producers art quality. Other than that the F16 is iconic. I wouldn't like to remove it from game.

roughly analogous with the XL variant (faster Speed, longer range, at the cost of a slightly lower turn rate.)

you shouldn't look at stats like that. I've increased the speed and range of all aircrafts, two reasons:

- it's damn annoying to chase those ufo's just to find out that your aircrafts - instead of ploting an interception course just folllow the craft brainlessly... this results in a lot of sending-out interceptors - out of fuel - waiting for refueling - sending out interceptors - micro managing routines. Not really enjoyable with the the clunky interface.

- the aircombat fights are much more interesting and dynamic with more speed and there are no more figths that beging with 10 sec of combat fuel left. (Im not proud that the side effect is having all aircrafts display above mach-3 speeds)

I have some ideas for upgrading my aircraft system but I'm putting it on hold for the time. I have another big project on my agenda (nothing to do with aircrafts) and it requires loads of work. Also I'll wait a bit and see if anybody is up to modding any new features into the community expansion (like pilots for example). Then I'll start thinking about aircrafts again, you are free to join me at that point ^^