(New version) XNT Into Darkness V5.2 - "PlatinumDragon" (DISCUSSION TREAD)

[Sentelin]

Just about Crusier missions (but this is a general issue):

I think they are too difficult and here is my explanation why.

I did a few of them and most and here is a typical schema:

- Killing all aliens hiding in the city without game loading – losses 1 man 1 tank

- Attempting to reach ufo entrance – save game

- Taking position around ufo’s main door

- Sebbilians perform a heroic charge – whole team dead – load game

- Taking positions around ufo’s main door

- Sebilian’s epic counter attack - half of team is dead, technically I can continue but I will regret it cause there is a - commander inside which is probably even stronger – load game

- Taking positions around ufo’s main door

- Sebbilians decide to surrender, nope joke, Sebilian’s counter attack – whole team dead – load game

Taking position around ufo’s main door

It's rather bad idea using this direct approach when you are doing Crusiers missions (or any other medium/huge UFO type).Try using breaching charge instead that way you can flank enemies inside ship and cut down casualties or you can lure them out of UFO (which is generally very bad idea because you risk of losing soldier or soldiers),just make sure that your soldier have at least some cover.AI will abuse stupid auto-open/close feature of UFO doors if he sees opportunity but he will also become reckless if he sees lonely squad member which seems vulnerable (he is vulnerable) and ignores high possibility of ambush you prepared.7

And so on. Same story is about reaching last room where commander or officer is hiding. Where for example you can be charged by a commander and his 2 bodyguards all of them with bazookas. And trust me they don’t care about distance and are basically unkillable even at normal difficulty.

I never storm room where commander or officer is hiding unless I am certain I will kill them in one turn.

There is a way to abuse AI in this kind of situation.Simply put open one door and hide your soldiers in cover but leave door open and one of or more Sebillans will leave command room and open fire if they can but this time you are in advantage because you have them right where you want them.And now you can dispose one or maybe two guards in one swift move leaving officer/commander unguarded or with only one guard.Sometimes you can even lure out commander/officer itself this way.There is also another way send rookie with C4 in room and detonated it.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Sentelin

[TacticalDragon]

Wonderful Radek!

You put this at the best moment!

I will tell you the process of re balancing some of this thing. I will give you some short of feedback.

In general:

Purpose of a tank is to be an equivalent of two medium quality soldiers (based on the moment of the tank invention so for example the Scout Car is a equivalent of two lvl-2 soldiers with a basic ballistics and the Jacal armor). By giving away learning capability they should be a bit more powerful at start.

Yes, the general idea is that a tank bring new support element in combat, I completly agree with all you points.

I actually have a new rebalanced for all vehicles in V5.3. Most of them very accurate to your points here.

I meet a single problem with them right now, is impossible right now disable short range bonus for vehicles. I try it in multiple ways, the only thing that I can do is rebalance stats and their weapons, I hope that new changes full fit all your requests!

Ground Combat:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4868[/ATTACH]

Half of the team is suppressed and on fire – could be worse.

Just about Crusier missions (but this is a general issue):

You are facing limit line that I intentional setup. Why your dealing with a crusier, is a light combat UFO.

First of all:

- Always face Crusiers with at least 2 assault shock troopers with Wolf Armor.

- Try using a single scout with Sniper/Explosive Buzzard armor (Actually here is when flying armors make his appeal)

- Your facing this combat with Jackal armor, a basic Human tech armor,

Taking the doors

This point is about innovation, I want to see if players found new tactics.

I found 6 possible combinations of equipments and tactics that you can implement. Believe me its possible.

Command Room

In landing ship and Crusiers this is a critical point, I starting to thing that XNT needs exclusive interior UFO layout. But I set the things quiet different. Command rooms are hard... specially since I implement Weapon Randomizer for aliens. In this point you have bad luck.

What is the solution?

Part of the elements that comprehend understanding how to play XNT mod is take in consideration retreat. Vanilla game makes that players get use to Save/Load process. I'm totally against this practice, is time consuming, is rutinary and can easy break the game. In vanilla things become easy when you know were is the aliens, you simply load, resulting on piece of cake.

We actually thing about add a new xenopedia entries for "RETREAT", you need to understand that you dealing with superiors out space races that have weaponry that surpass the knowledge of of humankind. Retreat need to be a usual tactic, even Im trying to set the mechanics to think about mechanics that imply "Take and Run". Consist in explorer the UFO, know the dynamic of ground combat, kill some aliens and pick up all you can, then retreat. This bring a new understanding of the gameplay dynamics.

Obviously your dealing with that situation, technology differentiation.

When players came to the forum saying us "I can take the Command Room", I'm happy.

When someone came and tell me "In my first mission I found a Delta Viper!!! WTF with this game", I'm happy.

Why? Because I promote the player to rethink and re planning. Some time ago lot of players come to GH developers and begin complain about difficulty, what is the result? A game that no present any "challenge" when you reach Wolf Armor or something better.

All players need to understand that supposing that aliens invade earth in 1970 things will see like this...

I hope that my answer fill the gaps of your doubts about the balance of the game.

I'm always appreciate your post and very comprehensive analysis.

Edited July 9, 2014 by TacticalDragon

[TacticalDragon]

There is also another way send rookie with C4 in room and detonated it.

I love this practice, I always have some rookies (High TU/HPs) at hand when I know that command rooms can be problematic

[Alewalek]

Some of my observation about economy after 2.5 months of game time. I amy be wrong about conclusions but decided to post it so the team can if nessesery rebalance some things.

First i will write what i have after this time of the game:

5 bases with 1 Su 10 in each, 3 basess full radar coverage, 2 bases 1 radar coverage.

40 scientists, 20 enginers, 25 soldiers - All costs of staff like in vanila so hiring cost and monthly upk. 10k/5k/10k

I have also lost at around 15 soldiers

Main base aditional garage, medi cener

Second suport base: 3 workshops(no enginers yet) 2 lquarters,

3rd base: 1lquarters

400k cash

j armors/ zephirs for thesoldiers/ shirek dropship

I did almost every ground mision for this monts exept 2-3 maby. So not sure I am not having to much as for only 2.5 monts and up to this I pay twice for staff from the begining, then standard mod setings.

If i remember something else i update post.

[TacticalDragon]

Some of my observation about economy after 2.5 months of game time. I amy be wrong about conclusions but decided to post it so the team can if nessesery rebalance some things.

First i will write what i have after this time of the game:

5 bases with 1 Su 10 in each, 3 basess full radar coverage, 2 bases 1 radar coverage.

40 scientists, 20 enginers, 25 soldiers - All costs of staff like in vanila so hiring cost and monthly upk. 10k/5k/10k

I have also lost at around 15 soldiers

Main base aditional garage, medi cener

Second suport base: 3 workshops(no enginers yet) 2 lquarters,

3rd base: 1lquarters

400k cash

j armors/ zephirs for thesoldiers/ shirek dropship

I did almost every ground mision for this monts exept 2-3 maby. So not sure I am not having to much as for only 2.5 monts and up to this I pay twice for staff from the begining, then standard mod setings.

If i remember something else i update post.

Did you have Base Upgrade tech? Which component did you use for manufacture? did you think that in mid or late game the resources are too high?

Thanks Alewalek

[Alewalek]

No didnt have this upgrade yet nor i have single tech that allow me to dissemble ufoss.

I was strugling with manufacture a lot, probably 20 enginers is not enough casue I was mising j armorss for some soldiers trying to bulid shirek ASAP. Not sure what you asking 4 when u asked what components I have used.

Not sure where is mid game casue never finished game yet and i dont have laser weopns yet so not sure onestly. From my point of view cash for complited ground missions may be a bit to high ATM unless you dont do them then you will realy strugle with money.

Otherwise in 3 month u can easly have 5 bases probably 60 scientist + 40-50 enginers and around 30 soldiers in 2 bases. And all that for full price.

Most of the time complited ground mision was about 100k-130 k netto if you substract 1-2 soldiers, u lost, from the icome, sometimes even more 150k up.

So my sugestion is for reduction of GC income a bit but its only sugestion I dont wana break balance and make things imposible 4 others not sure anyone has same experience like me.

And no need to thanks i love this mod. Onestly I stoped playing game today casue I am waiting for 5.3 wana start from scratch

If somone interested with rank progresion there was discusion what best comparing to vanila to double the requriments or make them 50% longer to achive.

I doubled them so after 2.5 months i have few CAPTAINS and them LT/SRG so going double may be a bit to much but 50% to 100% is what setings has to be if you dont like all oficers in your squad.

Iam out for today so in case u wana know more i will answear in about 10-12 h.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Alewalek

[ventuswings]

One question regarding the automatic map reveal:

When I was editting the xml files to (sort of) remove the feature, I noticed the turn duratiom reduced from 20 to 14 turns. Is there any reason why?

[KevinHann]

EDIT: whoops, misunderstood. Embarrassing.

Edited July 10, 2014 by KevinHann

[TacticalDragon]

@Thanks Kevin

@Ventus, in XNT base attacks are set quiet different in comparison to vanilla, aliens reach and concentrate force in some shock points. If the player is skillful enough to hold aliens attack he can reach turn 14 and gain the advantage of see entire map. is a defensive bonus hat I believe is very useful. At turn 20 the combat is too much developed and revealing has no other meaning to hunt lonely intruders.

@ Alewalek, We'r doing great effort to bring very stable, polished and clean version on 5.3.

I'm pretty sure that you will enjoy a lot the changes that we plan on this version.

Thanks for all the support that you give use during development.

[mmilia]

TacticalDragon , thanks for the fix , I will await your 5.3 release then... Restart the game for better experencie with your excellent mod!

[TacticalDragon]

TacticalDragon , thanks for the fix , I will await your 5.3 release then... Restart the game for better experencie with your excellent mod!

I have a marvelous and balanced solution for early melee units

[jpb]

"We actually thing about add a new xenopedia entries for "RETREAT", you need to understand that you dealing with superiors out space races that have weaponry that surpass the knowledge of of humankind. Retreat need to be a usual tactic, even Im trying to set the mechanics to think about mechanics that imply "Take and Run". Consist in explorer the UFO, know the dynamic of ground combat, kill some aliens and pick up all you can, then retreat. This bring a new understanding of the gameplay dynamics."

I completly agree with this and even further: There could be situations in wich the human squad face serious difficulties and could be forced to retreat even without any chace of getting close to the alien craft. But the retreat situation brings some other associated ones:

1) The dropship should have its own crew wich shoud be stationary and could have the function of create a defensive perimeter around the dropship in order to secure minimal retreat conditions. This could be in a form of one member of the crew being with a mounted gun on the craft door, a sniper or something else;

2) In the case of a retreat, it could happen so chaotically due to the alien superior technological fire power that the dropship itself is damage or even blown up by the aliens.

[TacticalDragon]

1) The dropship should have its own crew wich shoud be stationary and could have the function of create a defensive perimeter around the dropship in order to secure minimal retreat conditions. This could be in a form of one member of the crew being with a mounted gun on the craft door, a sniper or something else;

2) In the case of a retreat, it could happen so chaotically due to the alien superior technological fire power that the dropship itself is damage or even blown up by the aliens.

Well this is actually a brilliant idea, implementing that kind of modification maybe require a lot of coding and time, but is not impossible.

Let me talk with solver about this.

Thank you

[jpb]

Another interesting idea that could be taken in consideration is the ability of both the squad and local forces to use vehicles, something like a quad bike or a 4x4 vehicle with a mounted gun. That would also be very nice but i imagine this would probably only make sense with a bigger map.

[Sentelin]

Another interesting idea that could be taken in consideration is the ability of both the squad and local forces to use vehicles, something like a quad bike or a 4x4 vehicle with a mounted gun. That would also be very nice but i imagine this would probably only make sense with a bigger map.

Right now this is only "fantasy".But who knows maybe,sometime in future community coders will try to pull something like this and allow us to do it.

[radek]

A bit more of my thoughts

RPG elements:

Generally it is very fun part of the game. In the Vanilla soldiers were all upgraded up to date usually just after inventing of new weapons has been done. Here things are completely different. High tech weapons weight and cost significantly more, better armors are available only for small group of “chosen ones”. It leads to situations when every single person in your team has a different weapon. Sometimes you just produce weapons just in case cause factories are slow and usually overloaded by work. But even low grade items can still be used to kill an alien (especially Ceasens). Then you have a moral dilemma how to build a team with those soldiers and these weapons. In general it is very well designed bravo XNT team!

But I would like to highlight one simple thing.

If somehow one of your soldiers survive until mid-game he will automatically become a killing machine around 10x times better than any newcomer. Just look at the picture below. Technically I can give her a laser or even a plasma rifle but I won’t give away such a rare weapon to someone who will die in a sec and won’t be able to hit at anything anyway. I can’t even give her better armor cause she is to weak. So after all I have a half useless soldier. Thanks god you still can kill Ceasans and Vipers with m16 or Zephyr during mid-game but better forget about Sebs or Androns.

Giving to new comers better weapons is like throwing money into dump. Literally.

On the contrary the “Steel Knight” is not only super-fast and accurate but also extremely durable and panic resistant which prevents him from death. Even furious high concentrated attacks will take maximally half of is hp. Even suppressed he will still be able to escape. He will never as first. And also he will never die as last cause losing entire squad at mission is equal to game over and nobody can afford it.

It seems like game is trying somehow to make new soldiers better. In mid game private can kill a zombie with m16. I remember at the begging (in early game) it took 3 or 4 soldiers with m16s to kill one zombie. But problem is not about killing zombies. Problem is fighting with enemy elite soldiers.

And this is the problem. I think experienced soldiers are too powerful when new comers are too weak. Also it would be nice to have a up limit for experience and after reaching the highest rank not being able to continue stacking points. Game should not encourage players to make an endless grind.

Also making elite soldiers less powerful would have make losses or retreats more a fordable option.

General Stuff

Weeks 22 -24 is when I invented and applied plasma and my fighters became overpowered. Immediately after it I could cover entire sky (Basic Planes + sporadically Saracans). So good game aliens you can go home . I decided to not send any forces anywhere I have to say that losses increases with the pace of the game . I’m still for making aircraft recoverable in 75% for example cause their losses seems to be stable (and their would be lower if I didn’t misunderstood what auto resolve 100% means – I though it means victory without losses not just victory. Btw I think it should be remade cause it is confusing).

I think aliens should be able to perform alien base building, human base attack or even take control over territory missions even without having ufo in the sky to prevent boring periods in the game when enemy danger is reduced to zero only because of having better aircraft. Game tension should be maintained even by allowing enemy to cheat a little bit.

Also – mother fuking grinding. Please make some smaller ufos completely destroyed after being shot down. I think it makes people sick when they have to do “yet one another” small scout when knowing that by airstraking it they will lose all those dollars, aleniums, alloys and data cores hiden in it.

Ufo disassembling – the idea itself is good but I don’t like how it looks like it the game. I doesn’t rly fit. Since u can’t do anything more with all those data cores than dissemble them it is reduced to just another cash stock pile from a crash site. Also it brings a lot of clicking, you have to send data cores to the production base then produce it (requires free hangar slot so u can’t produce them all and have to do it one by one), then sell it. Before it all can happened u have to research it and it also a few more entries to workshop and making it even less readable.

Stun grenades – just op as hell.

Alien alloys production – converting cash into alloys, slow but I think it strips down resources management from half of its depth. Instead of collecting and buying weapons accordingly to your possibilities u just convert one resource into another. I’m not completely against it but it seems to me like a redundant simplification.

I have heard that next X:CE is comming soon and also XNT 5.3 so i unfortunately wont finish my game i will wait for the next uber version:D

Edited July 10, 2014 by radek

[jpb]

Right now this is only "fantasy".But who knows maybe,sometime in future community coders will try to pull something like this and allow us to do it.

A more ambitious fantasy is to see a dropship capable of carrying an APC vehicle into the battlescape.

[Sentelin]

Also – mother fuking grinding. Please make some smaller ufos completely destroyed after being shot down. I think it makes people sick when they have to do “yet one another” small scout when knowing that by airstraking it they will lose all those dollars, aleniums, alloys and data cores hiden in it.

We can do this ... by removing capability of Light scouts,Scouts to spawn crash sites.But that means that it is going to be like that from beginning of the game.In late mid/late game this kind of missions become redundant.Because doing "yet another Light scout or scout" mission is pointless,you get more money and materials for doing other missions and you can just airstrike those crash sites for little more cash (I mean really why would you do this missions Mid/Late game for 100k cash and 2-3 Alien alloys ?).

I think aliens should be able to perform alien base building, human base attack or even take control over territory missions even without having ufo in the sky to prevent boring periods in the game when enemy danger is reduced to zero only because of having better aircraft. Game tension should be maintained even by allowing enemy to cheat a little bit.

Well we did some change some dynamics of GS and aliens now build bases much faster... however what you are suggesting is not possible right now without source code and I am not sure if it will be even then

Ufo disassembling – the idea itself is good but I don’t like how it looks like it the game. I doesn’t rly fit. Since u can’t do anything more with all those data cores than dissemble them it is reduced to just another cash stock pile from a crash site. Also it brings a lot of clicking, you have to send data cores to the production base then produce it (requires free hangar slot so u can’t produce them all and have to do it one by one), then sell it. Before it all can happened u have to research it and it also a few more entries to workshop and making it even less readable.

I think this more matter of you personal taste/opinion than it's really an issue.What is wrong with clicking and why it doesn't fit in game ?Yeah it provides another alternative way of founding and I don't see why is that necessarily bad.As for cluttered workshop .. yeah you right but we can only wait for community coders to allow us create our own categories and until then,we have to work with what we can.

Stun grenades – just op as hell.

You meant on electric shock grenades ?We have taken care of them in v5.3.

And this is the problem. I think experienced soldiers are too powerful when new comers are too weak. Also it would be nice to have a up limit for experience and after reaching the highest rank not being able to continue stacking points. Game should not encourage players to make an endless grind.

Also making elite soldiers less powerful would have make losses or retreats more a fordable option.

This is not possible.We can however slow down stats progression and set limit.But this will affect all soldiers and not just those with highest rank.

.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Sentelin

[dashtun]

noooo,i love light scouts crash sites,nothing better than to speed run a small crashsite after you spend an hour figuring out how to do a landship...id even like more small crashsites in mid/late game just to break a monotony of a mission difficulty progression

[radek]

noooo,i love light scouts crash sites,nothing better than to speed run a small crashsite after you spend an hour figuring out how to do a landship...id even like more small crashsites in mid/late game just to break a monotony of a mission difficulty progression

Even more? Man u are patient for me doing 5 diffrent Scouts in a row was hard

I think this more matter of you personal taste/opinion than it's really an issue.What is wrong with clicking and why it doesn't fit in game ?Yeah it provides another alternative way of founding and I don't see why is that necessarily bad.As for cluttered workshop .. yeah you right but we can only wait for community coders to allow us create our own categories and until then,we have to work with what we can.

Ok if something is impossible then k i just have no idea where exacly is the border line between u and source code so i do critizice as it goes But as to alternative way of funding - is it rly alternative ot just an extra +100k per corvette?

This is not possible.We can however slow down stats progression and set limit. But this will affect all soldiers and not just those with highest rank.

Slowing down stats progression wouldnt have fix anything. We want to see the progress of our soldiers.

[Alewalek]

Maby instead of slowing them down just dont allow them grow over certain level. In vanila cap for stats was i think 100 so maby this can help? Or make it 125 not 150

Edited July 10, 2014 by Alewalek

[radek]

Sounds good to me.

[Sentelin]

Well I did say that we could set limit (lower limit) for how far stats can progress. I guess i could explain that better.But what then ?Will this really be solution to issue you brought.

[Alewalek]

Ask Radek Iam not sure but we still testing mod and if soldiers are overpowered having to big stats we may try this and see is it helpfull so they will be good but not unbeatable.

I forgot to mension that I have started my game in witch iam 10-11 weeks in game time with soldiers with normal stats like in Vanila exept for those that was set lower then vanila so: STR/REF/BRAV and I only have added 3 to all my starting soldiers not 9.

After this time in game I think those that still live are quite good and thiss buff for start maybe is not nessesery.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Alewalek

[dashtun]

stats should have a hard cap for balance reasons,but it would be nice if soldiers could have ability to gain special skills to keep rpg element of the game going because stats progression is one of the most satisfying things about your soldiers