QM's More Ballistic Weapons Mod

Not every game inspired by X-Com follows the tiered progression model. The UFO: AfterX series is famous for having multiple weapon research "lines" and made ballistic weapons key to the game. The problem was (throughout the series) that advanced ballstic weapons were much better under general cirumstances than any of the other, more "advanced" weapons, so advanced ballistics ended up invalidating practically all other weapons research. The AfterX series is living proof that ultimately, one type or set of guns is going to be better than any of the others and players will cluster around the best weapons for the job.

I was thinking about it and I wondered why in every X-COM clone do they always abandon ballistics weapon when the weapon tiers go up.

Why not?

If you are going to add bullets that do fire damage why not make it shiny and say it is a laser doing the fire damage?

Generally I think the tiers are visually different because it is more visually interesting.

Swapping your bullets for lasers is an instant cue that you have gone to a new tier.

Upgrading from a slug thrower to a slightly different slug thrower doesn't give the same visual feedback that you have gone to a new stage of human technology.

I am sure there will be mods that do something similar to what you suggests anyway.

I think researching replacement ammunition that is made of alien alloys or uses a sprinkle of Alenium in the propellant should be easy now the game allows research to replace older tech.

Hopefully the new UI will support multiple ammunition types for weapons as well, just to give you options.

All of this is in the wrong thread anyway.

Bit off topic.

Not every game inspired by X-Com follows the tiered progression model. The UFO: AfterX series is famous for having multiple weapon research "lines" and made ballistic weapons key to the game. The problem was (throughout the series) that advanced ballstic weapons were much better under general cirumstances than any of the other, more "advanced" weapons, so advanced ballistics ended up invalidating practically all other weapons research. The AfterX series is living proof that ultimately, one type or set of guns is going to be better than any of the others and players will cluster around the best weapons for the job.

One possible solution to that is to have the advanced weapons be 'combined effects' weapons that require varying combinations of the type 1, type 2, and type 3 weapons as stepping stones: Ie: reverse engineering the magnetic components of plasma weapons for use in Gauss weaponry, modifying the particle beam emitter from a laser rifle to boos the power of a plasma weapon, etc.

the other possible solution is type-specific defenses: Magnetic deflectors that disrupt lasers, but can't stop shells or plasma. Kinetic repulsion fields that stop solid rounds, but don't do a thing to energy ammo. smoke-like grenades that create an ionization/scattering effect which dissipates plasma charges, but doesn't stop the other two. Armor that effects all three equally, but can be taken down with heavy explosives, which would be a waste to use otherwise.

these force the player to use a mix, so they're ready for anything.

or do both.

Research interdependencies don't change the desirability of a given weapon type. They merely modify the base cost and give no incentive for using those "intermediate" weapons.

the other possible solution is type-specific defenses: Magnetic deflectors that disrupt lasers, but can't stop shells or plasma. Kinetic repulsion fields that stop solid rounds, but don't do a thing to energy ammo. smoke-like grenades that create an ionization/scattering effect which dissipates plasma charges, but doesn't stop the other two. Armor that effects all three equally, but can be taken down with heavy explosives, which would be a waste to use otherwise.

That's about the only approach that works but is terribly hard to balance because you have such wildly different and situational effects.

That's why the AfterX ballistics are good. They don't do special effects but your laser-equipped squad would be screwed if the enemy tossed a few smoke grenades. Ballistics don't excel at anything but they always work.

Having no weaknesses at all is a huge bonus. It's also something to avoid when designing the game balance. =)

Xenonauts has varying damage resistances attached to each armour type so it's at least possible to balance the game so that weapons have a purpose even after you have reseached the next tier of weapons.

From what Chris said, it's going to be a "heavy plasma" situation, though, where the next tier of weapons is always better than the previous one, eliminating the need to put much thought into weapon loadouts.

From what Chris said, it's going to be a "heavy plasma" situation, though, where the next tier of weapons is always better than the previous one, eliminating the need to put much thought into weapon loadouts.

I think that statement is a little misleading.

The heavy plasma was a single weapon from a single tier that was always the best.

You couldn't go wrong by filling your whole squad with them.

The highest tier in Xenonauts may be the most powerful but unless the role balance is completely off then you should always have choices to make on your loadouts.

It shouldn't be the case that the tier 4 machine gun, for example, will always be the only weapon worth taking.

You will still need to decide if you want to take a few carbines, assault rifles, a sniper and maybe an assault shield/pistol user.

That's what I mean.

There is a grand total of 4 weapons in the game. They just change their names once in a while but you only have a choice between those 4 weapons (of the current tier) if you want to be effective.

If the machine gunner first uses a MG, then a laser MG, then a plasma MG... that's neither a change nor a choice. All it is is a chore without any decision required.

But surely that is a choice right there?

The machine gunner you refer to doesn't have to use a machine gun, you have chosen to do so.

You could just as easily have given him an AR, pistol, carbine, rocket launcher, flamethrower, or precision rifle.

There is nothing restricting him to using the machine gun apart from player choice.

It is not an intrinsically better weapon than any other.

The choice of which weapons (and how many of each) you take is yours.

With the armour degradation model Chris is considering you shouldn't be completely limited to the highest tier either.

If you can't afford to run a squad with a complete set of your best tier weapons your lower weapons can still be useful and kill the enemies.

Sure the highest tier will always be the better choice when you have access to it, and can afford it, but that doesn't mean you have no choices at all when deciding which weapons to take.

Maybe if you only looked at which machine gun to take and disregarded cost, availability, ammunition supplies etc then there is only one possible option.

That is ignoring the available options for the sake of saying there are no options though.

If the next tier of weapons didn't have an advantage to researching them over existing tiers, then why bother researching them? I know that in Aftershock, when I had decent ballistics I didn't give a monkeys about warp weapons or lasers. Even Wargot weapons were crap compared to ballistics.

Considering advantages, it is possible to exaggerate a common feature for all the weapons of a particular tier to make that tier stand out among it's brethren. e.g. lasers are the most accurate, plasma is the most powerful, tier 4 weapons fire the most shots, etc. The shortcoming is that such features can be rendered down in mathematical analysis to "which is the best". Possibly a better way to distinguish between tiers is to give each tier a unique advantage that is immune or difficult to treat in mathematical analysis. E.g. ballistics are free, lasers cause the most suppression, plasma sets things on fire, all tier 4 weapons have the hypervelocity tag.

This is the problem with having too many weapons. Was there really a need for an M-16 AND an AK-47, for instance (which is a little better with damage but a little less accurate)? I liked the setup in Rebelstar where you just had a few generic weapon types (Photon - rapid fire but innaccurate/Lazer Gun - standard medium capability weapon/Lazer Pistol - sidearm/Blast torch - extremely short range but very powerful etc.). Although it is nice to be 'weapons realistic', this would have let the team delve deeper into other game/non-weapon research issues. Max has made some good points above though, which are similar to mine...

From what Chris said, it's going to be a "heavy plasma" situation, though, where the next tier of weapons is always better than the previous one, eliminating the need to put much thought into weapon loadouts.

Actually, I think Chris has said it won't be a "heavy plasma" situation as I seem to recall him saying he specifically wants to avoid that as he views it as one of the more negative things from Enemy Unknown.

Yes, each tier will probably be an improvement, but there will be no one weapon in that tier which is out and out better, and there will be the special weapons like flamethrowers as well to give even more choice.

Any chance of adding more weapons?

I'd like to see weapons that were considered 'futuristic' for the time, sort of as a tier 1.5? Not something like an M16A2, which *mostly* doesn't have any improvements/changes that would transfer to gameplay mechanics save for the lack of full-auto and a longer magazine. Adding weapons that were 'futuristic' for the time would help reinforce the idea these guys are high-tech and give a retrofuturistic flair.

The "Special Operation Shotgun" was actually a full-auto shotgun used by Navy SEALS in the Vietnam War. It actually almost became its' own weapon program, but that was canned. This could be used as a step up from the existing ballistic shotgun.

I'd go with the SPIW as an 'upgrade' to the M16 rifle, but I don't think it's possible to properly represent a rifle with a grenade launcher? But the AAI SBR would work. It's pretty futuristic looking, and the fact it uses flechettes adds to the 'high-tech' factor.

A machine pistol would be a step up from a normal pistol. That, or there's two ways you can go with it. A. A 'handcannon' that has lower capacity but is stronger and has slightly more range or a handgun with a much higher round capacity.

For the precision rifle...you could either go for an anti-material rifle or something that can shoot faster. That, or make it so the 'tier 1' rifle is a bolt-action rifle. I don't know what I'd choose as the weapon since no 'futuristic' DMRs/sniper rifles come to mind.

For the existing rocket launcher..uh, no idea. But grenade launchers (be they single shot or have multiple rounds) would be cool.

If I had to diffentiate Ballistic, Laser and Plasma weapons rather than it' being tiered I'd go with Max Caines' approach. Like he said, it'd just be a metter of number crunching and selectively choosing the best weapons over there being an actual difference.

Hi there, allow myself to introduce myself.

I am a gun nut.

Let me help you out here.

This is the M-72 LAW, the perfect item to replace the RPG you're using as a 'disposable' one-shot rocket launcher. In my opinion, it would make far more sense to

1. Implement the M-72 LAW as such, a lightweight, single-shot...light anti-armor weapon.

2. Swap the LAW and the in-game rocket launcher (known as the SMAW, or perhaps it is its earlier Israeli counterpart the B300) in your Improved Ballistics research...the LAW was standard issue for the US military ever since 1963, and was still in use at the time for the role the SMAW is being used for here. However, the SMAW was not issued until 1984, five years after the game's setting. Therefore, it would not appear in-game except as a prototype, which would be justified if you moved it to the Improved Ballistics section.

Next, the carbine. This is the CAR-15, an extremely short version of the M-16 which was issued to men like Navy SEALs during special operations missions in Vietnam. It was the forerunner to the M4, which was actually not invented until 1994. While the existence of the M4 could perhaps be justified as a prototype, there's no point in doing so while the CAR-15, XM-177, and Colt Commando all exist in the period. Also, it is less accurate than the M4, which would justify its low performance at long range, a problem the M4 doesn't really have.

Finally, the MP5: Just do what others are suggesting and use the Uzi. It was invented in 1949 by Israeli Uziel Gal, as a weapon to be issued to tank crews in the event of being forced out of their vehicles. It is remarkable in that it was designed with the ability to be operated one-handed in mind, which, while not an intended purpose as Hollywood says, was made possible and even plausible by the recoil characteristics of its telescoping bolt, it's pistol grip magazine placement, and many other factors. If you wish, you can even give players the option of issuing the Mini-Uzi, an even more compact version of the Uzi created in 1980 for special operations personnel specifically. You know, like us.

One more suggestion I'd like to make:

I say add in the M14 as a "Battle Rifle", as an alternative to the M16.

It would be 1kg heavier, take 5 more AP per each type of shot, but have range halfway between the rifle and precision rifle, do damage halfway between the two, have accuracy halfway between the two (except for burst, which would be awful, maybe 11 as opposed to the rifle's 15), and so on. Just another chance for us to make calls on how we want our guys to be equipped.

This is the problem with having too many weapons. Was there really a need for an M-16 AND an AK-47, for instance (which is a little better with damage but a little less accurate)? I liked the setup in Rebelstar where you just had a few generic weapon types (Photon - rapid fire but innaccurate/Lazer Gun - standard medium capability weapon/Lazer Pistol - sidearm/Blast torch - extremely short range but very powerful etc.). Although it is nice to be 'weapons realistic', this would have let the team delve deeper into other game/non-weapon research issues. Max has made some good points above though, which are similar to mine...

Considering the game itself gets fairly repetitive and relies alot on the player making content in their mind more diversity would go a long way. I didn't like the original Xcom that much and the new one was awesome but linear as hell but when i saw a lets play of this i instantly bought it even though i knew it was in beta because it looked like i'd be fighting aliens with realistic cold war weapons. Even if you are given 20 versions of the same weapons with slightly different stats and looks it would allow for so much replayability--a canadian interceptor base filled with nothing but cannucks fielding period appropriate weapons? HELL YES!

Others may not find diversity as much of a draw but to me realism and diversity are pretty much the games strongest points.

So that people are aware, Quartermaster had to cease participation on this site, for RL reasons he gave a while back. It's... unlikely we're going to see any more contributions from Quartermaster. Which is why there's over a years' difference between the post ElTee made and the post Jebadiah made.

Sorry about the gravedig, I followed the link off the mod list and didn't notice how old the thread was.

I'm planning to add some ballistic weapons once the game is final. Right now, I don't want to have to make multiple revisions as the game is under development. There are a few logical weapons classes and types that are missing. I plan to fix that.

So that people are aware, Quartermaster had to cease participation on this site, for RL reasons he gave a while back. It's... unlikely we're going to see any more contributions from Quartermaster. Which is why there's over a years' difference between the post ElTee made and the post Jebadiah made.

As a note, I do check the site about once a week to see how things are developing because I love this game. If anyone wants to resurrect the weapon modification program I created and has question about it, please send me a message and I will get back to you at some point.

I like your idea. The single handed SMG type weapon will help shield troopers as well.

I'd go with replacing the RPG graphic with the LAW graphic as the LAW is/looks like the "one shot throw away" weapon your trying to make.

Or even an AT-4 look...

As a matter of fact if you make upgrades for these weapons the AT-4 would be the next step from the M72 LAW on the one shot throw away rocket munitions ladder.

I like your idea. I'd go with replacing the RPG graphic with the LAW graphic as the LAW is/looks like the "one shot throw away" weapon your trying to make.

Or even an AT-4 look...

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As a matter of fact if you make upgrades for these weapons the AT-4 would be the next step from the M72 LAW on the one shot throw away rocket munitions ladder.

Yeah, the AT-4 replaced the LAW in the real US Army inventory while I was still in. I think its rocket was 20mm bigger than the LAWs; 65mm vs 85mm and had about 12oz more explosive in the warhead. It was a big improvement.

Like I said it would be the next step up from the LAW. Maybe require more research or something to unlock it.

Yeah, the AT-4 replaced the LAW in the real US Army inventory while I was still in. I think its rocket was 20mm bigger than the LAWs; 65mm vs 85mm and had about 12oz more explosive in the warhead. It was a big improvement.

Like I said it would be the next step up from the LAW. Maybe require more research or something to unlock it.

I was thinking along those lines as well. The AT-4 type one shot weapon should be at the top of the research tree for that type of weapon in the game.

I'd give the LAW a blast radius and damage of a grenade with the center or hit target taking substantially higher damage (than a grenade). The AT-4 would be the same as a rocket launcher round.

Carrying the weapons, as well as using them, shouldn't be to restrictive (they were made to be that way: light and easy to deploy) aside from a trooper being restricted to one such weapon on his person.

Please send me your weapons mod if you do one once the game comes out....

Please send me your weapons mod if you do one once the game comes out....