Ground Combat Balance - V21 Experimental 5

[Chris]

Long (really long) post on the static vs % TU cost is here: http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/9101-TU-vs-Static-TU-firing-cost?p=100832#post100832

Please move all discussion on that issue to that thread.

[Max_Caine]

Okay, I've done my first corvette. There's a bug I'm going to report properly - the directional thrusters don't turn up after you get the Corvette datacore. Could it be that you need 2 datacores? Anyway, I like the layout of the main body of the Corvette - the two doors leading onto the body is nice, there's a lot more variety to it and it looks very vibrant. However, I think the fore section could be naturally and easily divided into three sections - the two pilot sections and a entrance lobby and there's a good reason why. The corvette is a reverse of the scout - the extended tube into the body means you can't see what's going on and you can't see into the fore section very much even after walking into the tube. So the minute you get out of the tube you will get jumped (as I did) by whatever's hiding on either side of the fore section. If the fore section were divided off, that sense of the unknown continues into the ship itself. Currently after you walk into the fore section any surprises are all blown at once. The divisions would maintain suspense up to the point where you open one of the pilot doors, which I believe would intensify the experience of breaching the corvette.

Secondly, the corvette and the scout seem to be manned entirely by soliders. I think that some noncoms would add flavour and up numbers when boarding a ufo without making it too difficult, as this corvette I boarded had two guys in it, one in the fore and one in the main body which is a criminal waste of the lovely layout.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Max_Caine

[Voidfoam]

Ok. I have fought some battles up to my first terror attack and base attack. I would like to raise a few things that crossed my mind.

1) I feel the Aliens most of the time still are quite stationary. They seem to linger in pretty much the same areas on the same maps time after time. They should roam the maps more aggressively i feel, when contact is made other aliens should be drawn to assist. Now most of the time, i feel i am finding them in the same spots. BUT i really feel they are superb at seeking cover, which is great.

I feel the mission variety would gain greatly if the Aliens as a group, randomly choose between say three different "team behaviors"

Representing the local alien commanders choice of strategy against the Xenonauts.

-Aggressive protection. Most of soldiers and crew, actively attack the Xeno dropship as a counter. Reckless strategy to put severe hurt on a not careful an unsuspecting commander.

- Balanced stance. Much like the aliens act on all maps today. Some are in the terrain waiting, lurking. Some protect the UFO.

Maybe this should be the most common if the ufo has landed. And you catch the alien scum with their pants down.

-Defensive stance. Most aliens, except some random sniper or strangler, protect the UFO. Dug in around it, and awaiting the breach in full force.

Quite a simple way to make you not knowing what to expect from each UFO assault. In attacks upon Xeno facility for instance, some Alien commanders could choose to move their force in a big group to present an aggressive attack in force against the command center. Some alien commanders might choose to spread out and make great damage to the entire facility.

2) Small drones should put a lot more fire on the Xenonauts. I have faced them many times. And they are described as a suppression unit. Yet the only time they fire against me, its reaction shots, with great damage on a single soldier. This is cool. But where is the tons of fire that should be coming my way to make me keep my head down?

3) Its quite annoying that every rookie basically is greatly hampered by wearing armor. Yet later it is the only good way to make them live long enough to improve. Maybe armor should eat more time units while on the move? So the rookie would be slower if moving, but if he is stationary, he could still have full TU to put some fire on the Aliens.

And i am having a blast with the game i bought. Love it. Cheers

Maybe i put this in the wrong thread? Sorry in that case.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Voidfoam

[mrxny]

This is a great idea. It feels more realistic, balances the game out more, and still allows for progression.

You could just be polite and nice. Yes, they 'owe' you a finished game along the lines of what was promised. They don't owe you the specific game you personally want configured exactly to your taste. And the rather small amount of money you sent them does not make them your bitch nor give you the right to treat them impolitely. Humans aren't sold so cheaply nowadays...

Pardonnez mon Francais.

Again, Numb nuts, How much does a movie cost to make ?

You only pay $20.00 to go see it? So you pay an even tinier amount towards the total product.

Critics are on national television telling you to NOT go see it. Are the actors on TV crying about it?

When IGN rates a game poorly - do the developers post in the comments, "Pleasseee be nice to me" ?

Call of Duty gets changed based off Rage complaints - Black Ops 2 made over 1 Billion dollars- So all arguments should be over after that sentence.

They take HARSH criticism, listen, take it like men, and respond.

I want the game to be better, be more fun - I've been a pc gamer since the Apple 2C.....

These guys cant take 1 joke about Xenouats being put in the Recycling bin, gimme a break........

__________________________________

"I''ll go off on you - like I went off on Joseph Corsin" - Elegant Elliot Offen

Edited February 27, 2014 by mrxny

[GlyphGryph]

I am still considering the TU %. I must admit I'm surprised by the negative reactions to it - I thought it was a good change.

In terms of the arguments against, I can firstly see the argument that it makes moving and shooting more of a chore because the shot costs change on a per-soldier basis. You can use the reserve mode to make this easier, but it's still not as simple as remembering to save 20 TU or 40 TU (or whatever).

I understand the appeal of this change. I can see how and why it feels better. But I think it also makes things more frustrating in a lot of ways. I have a suggestion, one I was considering making a ways back but I didn't because I thought we were past such major changes, but since we apparently aren't - why not make any TU earned that's above the max weapon-cost TU (TU costs of weapons would probably need to be adjusted, I'd suggest around 60 and have that be the max-aim-cost for the-most-ap-intensive-weapons) be movement-only TU?

The goal is to allow more TU to mean more mobility, right? Without making them super-powerful-damage-multipliers?

There's no having to figure out how much TU a weapon will cost (frustrating), there's no feeling that my experienced soldiers are being robbed of progression because if they and a rookie both fire through the turn the TU bonus becomes meaningless (frustrating), it means the predator armor isn't useless for its stated purpose (frustrating).

Basically, it's all of the benefits of the percentage system, without the parts that people (reasonably) hate.

It would also be really fun for Androns, since it would mean that instead of standing and firing they would have both the ability and incentive to advance every single turn as an immediately obvious 'optimal' strategy. Mmm, the thought just sends shivers of excitement down mine spine.

Edited February 27, 2014 by GlyphGryph

[legit1337]

Since the TU% discussion moved to another thread.

Can we just talk about how high tier LMGs have 20 ammo... really can you please up that to 50?

[StellarRat]

Since the TU% discussion moved to another thread.

Can we just talk about how high tier LMGs have 20 ammo... really can you please up that to 50?

At least make it 30 rounds. Two burst is just too low.

[DNK]

Again, Numb nuts, How much does a movie cost to make ?

You only pay $20.00 to go see it? So you pay an even tinier amount towards the total product.

Critics are on national television telling you to NOT go see it. Are the actors on TV crying about it?

When IGN rates a game poorly - do the developers post in the comments, "Pleasseee be nice to me" ?

You're the only one that realized it was a "joke", probably because it didn't sound like one at all. It sounded like an entitled little kid throwing a tantrum. But hey, if that's how you want to come off to the world, more power to you, "man".

I guarantee if you were to talk directly to a producer and say their movie was trash because of some minor detail in one scene, they'd be a lot less considerate than Chris was. The difference is you don't normally, because these other people don't want to put up with random insults and trolling from random people like you, so you get a PR guy or an automated response, if you get anything at all, after you e-mailed them your insulting complaints. You don't interact directly, you don't have a forum to share with them and a community.

That's the real difference here.

Additionally, my comments before had nothing to do with Chris' response and everything to do with how you originally acted in this thread, independent of anyone else's reaction. If you talk shit like that anywhere, to a dev or not, I'd still have a low opinion of you. The fact you're doing it directly to the guy making the game just makes it worse and something I'll speak to instead of just ignoring as usual.

Are you going to contribute to this discussion at all or just keep flaming?

[Sleet01]

Has anyone noticed a marked rise in friendly-fire incidents in 21Ev5? Before it was an occasional nuisance when firing over friendlies' shoulders; now it seems like any friendly blocking % number at all is a guaranteed bullet to the back of the head. It may be that I'm just seeing a very bad random run, but I swear it's much worse than in the previous build.

[KateMicucci]

No. But you know what's ridiculous is berzerking. Some civies on the other side of the map get killed, and suddenly my guy is shooting his buddies in the back. Ok...

[Sleet01]

Now that you mention it, I have noticed this as well. Early in my first 21Ev5 game (2nd or 3rd mission I believe) I had one soldier rather unfortunately blow herself up with a poorly-aimed rocket and the entire team panicked, except for one berserker. And their morale wasn't even that low, maybe 10 or 20 points down from max.

[KateMicucci]

That's another thing. Wiffed grenades and rockets against hitting adjacent walls that don't appear to be in the way.

[Gauddlike]

Not sure you could do much about that with this game engine.

Objects do not cover the actual space the image represents.

As far as I can tell their size is purely represented in game by stopping chance so a thick pillar with stopping chance 50 would be considered the same as a waist high wall with stopping chance 50, despite having very different properties to the player.

That stopping chance seems to be worked out for the bottom half of the tile but that could be wrong.

A shot that looks to the player like it could pass either side of the pillar would possibly hit the empty edges of the tile while a shot passing through the centre of the top half of the pillar would be unimpeded.

It leads to some strange behaviour when throwing or firing past units or objects that do not appear to be physically in the way.

[legit1337]

At least make it 30 rounds. Two burst is just too low.

Agreed... if you need to balance it, nerf accuracy. Machineguns are supposed to be suppression weapons, killing stuff with them is just a bonus. I think accuracy needs to be nerfed a bit anyway considering the bursts are 10 rounds long now instead of 5.

IMO I think and LMG should be 80% to fire instead of 90%. That is 3 squares of movement on an 80 TU unit, which allows for a small re-positioning, but not to advance significantly.

Edited February 28, 2014 by legit1337

[Chris]

Suppression has been turned up in recent times for the aliens (and human weapons in some cases) and suppression damage does cause morale damage. That might be responsible for some of the panic issues as the system has not changed noticeably in recent times, or it may have simply been bad luck. Even at 0 morale a soldier is not guaranteed to panic.

[KateMicucci]

Agreed... if you need to balance it, nerf accuracy. Machineguns are supposed to be suppression weapons, killing stuff with them is just a bonus. I think accuracy needs to be nerfed a bit anyway considering the bursts are 10 rounds long now instead of 5.

MG accuracy doesn't need to be any lower. At 40 accuracy its already only hitting about 1-3 shots out of 10 on average, even when the soldier didn't move that turn (not like he could move much now anyway).

A suppression weapon that can't hit anything doesn't make sense. People are suppressed because they're afraid of being hit. The MG couldn't hit anything when it was 30 accuracy.

[Chris]

They have to be viable weapons in their own right, too, otherwise there's no point sticking them on the Predators. I think their accuracy is fine as it.

90% TU cost may be too high. I'd consider dropping it to 80%, as the 90% was really just to reinforce the whole "don't move and shoot with this" thing and I'm not particularly attached to that change. I'll also consider the 3-burst clips, but I'm not entirely convinced about that.

[Caaygun]

If you leave it in, please leave that 'switch' in as an option so we can manually change it back. At this point, the TU change is acting as a deterrent from me playing the game.

Yeah, more capability of customisation is always good. Though keeping it will require balancing both aspects of the switch, will probably be time and test intensive for the dev.

I am still considering the TU %. I must admit I'm surprised by the negative reactions to it - I thought it was a good change.

Well, it was the OG system anyway, we would probably be perfectly happy with it if you never invented the static TU system. Since you have put the better method (imo) in right from the beginning, we resist the downgrade after playing with the better system.

@Mrxny - I can't be bothered to have a debate with you on the subject, but generally people comment on this forum for two reasons. The first is so their opinions on the game can be considered by the development team and perhaps have the game changed more to their preferences. The second is to throw insults at us / other forum users.

I'm not saying this because I'm afraid of harsh criticism, I'm saying it because I'm assuming you're not actually trying to troll us and don't realise that the way you're posting is counter-productive and turns developers off from agreeing with whatever you're trying to say. This isn't about being a "man", it's about trying to make a game we all want to play.

Should you choose to refund this guy after he does the,

Xenonauts ---------------> Recycling Bin

I will personally finance it, here I said it. This great work of art and the extensive effort the dev is putting to keep the community involved and satisfied deserves much better than that.

[Doomsdayman]

Ok so I have 2 things about this build.

1st I hate the new debriefing screen. The last one was match better just needed a Mission Successes/Fail instead of the place holder and the had to be ratings.

2 Thanks to this build I finally know what's going on with the "hit misses". Basically you have 2 dice, 1 for the aim and then you have like 50/50 change of hitting the target when it hits the guy. Please remove the 2nd dice I just had a round where all 8 guys had 80% to 95% change of hitting the alien, the bullet hit the alien but it says every time it misses.

Also I just had a guy panic for no reason unless there is a system in play, where if you leave a guy all alone he will panic (witch is very assume made).

Now I have a request can you let me number my team in the dropship, I can now place them in the drop shit how I want to but not number them.

[legit1337]

MG accuracy doesn't need to be any lower. At 40 accuracy its already only hitting about 1-3 shots out of 10 on average, even when the soldier didn't move that turn (not like he could move much now anyway).

A suppression weapon that can't hit anything doesn't make sense. People are suppressed because they're afraid of being hit. The MG couldn't hit anything when it was 30 accuracy.

Machineguns IRL are scary accurate, out a good 200 meters further than assault rifles. Obviously this can't be modeled in game because of balance problems... But their primary role is as a suppression platform. Do you honestly think MG crews IRL are trying to hit targets with all of their bullets? Or even 1 in 10? They would be LUCKY to hit with 1 in 2000. They are really just glorified bullet hoses designed to spit as much lead in the general direction of the enemy as possible.

In-game don't mind them being less accurate than assault rifles, and in fact they should be so because they shoot 10 bullets per turn instead of 2-3. All I'm saying is that accuracy should not be one of the machinegun's attributes, volume of fire and ammo capacity should be. If you have to nerf the former to increase the latter so be it.

20 bullets per magazine on a infantry support weapon is simply unacceptable.

Edited February 28, 2014 by legit1337

[Chris]

Ironically the static TU system was only implemented that way because the combat coder at the time didn't read my email on TU costs correctly and missed the % function, years ago now. We just never really got around to fixing it.

@Doomsdayman - regarding point 2), what's actually happening is the shot has "missed" the target but hasn't scattered far enough to the side to avoid passing through the tile that the target is in. Once it reaches that tile, the bullet isn't allowed to hit the target so it has to hit the ground instead. It doesn't affect the odds of hitting at all, it's just a bit of a visual issue. We'll look into allowing "miss" bullets to pass through their target in the polishing phase.

Your other points have been noted too.

[dropbear]

Ok, so I started a new game to check out the new system. I'm playing on veteran and am still relatively early in the game (about to finish the second month) so obviously I can only comment on that.

A couple of thoughts:

1. The percentage based TU system isn't bad in my mind. Not particularly great either, but it works. Without going into any details ( I get that this is the wrong thread) I do think it is at least partially responsible for the following point.

2. Combat is way too easy for the difficulty level now. I really liked the balance in the last release before the percentage based TU system. The enemies were very deadly and a hit usually meant the death of a Xenonaut. It was however quite manageable due to the low numbers of the Aliens. Difficult but not overwhelming - I liked it. At present, the Aliens miss a lot of their shots and (not 100% sure here) probably have less shots anyway due to the TU System. In addition my unarmored guys and girls routinely survive hits from plasma rifles. All that put together means I have lost maybe one guy up until armored enemies started showing up and completely skipped Jackal armor - which is to say all of my people are unarmored so far, where before I would build Jackal for all soldiers just for that tiny bit of survivability.

3. Pistols seem oddly accurate at long(-ish) ranges. 51% on a snapshot (73% aimed) on a crouched target outside of range (16 Tiles i think). It isn't a big deal at any rate, because of the low damage.Just feels a weird.

4. LMGs with their 10 shot bursts are great in theory. I toyed around with them a bit and they have a decent use in game, especially on targets in cover which your AR/Sniper guys have trouble hitting reliably (It's not that they hit better, but 10 shots obviously increase your odds and they generally one hit kill those unarmored aliens). However I still don't use them because of the stationary nature, but I think they could be quite useful with a different playstyle.

5. I didn't really find a use for the shotgun. I tried using them as breaching weapons, but they don't do anything the AR on burst couldn't. I think they might need either more damage or preferably higher suppresion and maybe less TU cost to fire. Keep in mind though that I only tried the balistic version, so they might get better later on.

6. For me the AR is by far the best Weapon. The accuracy buff on bursts makes it very useful at shorter ranges and still works great in it's rifle role. Really liking it in it's current form.

Lastly, I would like to say, how awesome is c4 ? I never used it in previous versions and had no idea what I was missing out on. Needless to say, now every one of my soldiers is packing at least 2 sticks

[Skitso]

Once it reaches that tile, the bullet isn't allowed to hit the target so it has to hit the ground instead. It doesn't affect the odds of hitting at all, it's just a bit of a visual issue. We'll look into allowing "miss" bullets to pass through their target in the polishing phase.

Ah, yes please! That one little visual imperfection is the one I want gone the most I think! Getting rid of it will make missing feel that much better, I'm sure.

[Max_Caine]

Skitso: The only thing to think of is the fairly common situation when you have one trooper stacked up behind another. If the alien shoots the first guy, misses, then the shot passes through that tile and into the tile behind it wouldn't that look as fake?

[Skitso]

I'm not sure I got your point, Max, but... umm... no? When CSI are investigating a shoot out scene, most of the bullets are pried out of walls, not floor. Bullets flying past the target look much more natural than hitting the floor. Why would anybody even aim so low that the bullet hits the floor just between targets feet?

Edited February 28, 2014 by Skitso