Ground Combat Balance - V21 Experimental 6

[Chris]

I'm doing a proper playthrough of the game to try to help balance the AI - I'm quite happy with the difficulty on Veteran at the moment, to be honest. I'm not sure making it any harder is a good idea.

[StellarRat]

I'm doing a proper playthrough of the game to try to help balance the AI - I'm quite happy with the difficulty on Veteran at the moment, to be honest. I'm not sure making it any harder is a good idea.

Make sure to try some vehicles, I'm sure you'll see why people generally would like a little more ammo. Right now, they aren't quite worth the money, but with a few more rounds (+25% to 50%) they probably would be. Edited May 9, 2014 by StellarRat

[kabill]

Sorry, the intent wasn't to suggest making it harder per se. There's just - as Max indicates - something of a discrepancy between Caesans and other alien types in terms of their difficulty.

I think the problem - in so far as there is one - is that Sebillians got buffed quite a lot with the faster regeneration and being able to see through smoke, making them a lot better in comparison. On the basis of their stats alone, they're actually fairly comparable:

Sebillian:

APs="55" Resilience="80" Strength="60" Accuracy="45" Reflexes="35" Bravery="40" Abilities="Regeneration" (and see through smoke too!)

Caesan:

APs="50" Resilience="60" Strength="60" Accuracy="55" Reflexes="55" Bravery="40" />

In exchange for -10 accuracy and -20 reflexes, Sebillians get +20 HPs, +5 TUs, which is probably just in favour of Caesans. But add in regeneration and seeing through smoke, and Sebs are a lot better. Oh, and Sebillians are more resistant to suppression, too!

Obviously, this balances out later on with psionics (although Sebllians come with Reapers...). So maybe it's not an issue. But I'd argue it would be a good thing to try and reduce the difficulty gap at least a little for the early game.

Alternatively, I guess Sebs could get nerfed a little bit, though I quite like them where they are personally.

(Difficulty issue aside, I think more than anything Caesans lack flavour, at least early on. The other two early aliens, Sebillians and Androns, feel like distinct alien races which have their own qualities. They're both tough, but when I fight them they feel like they have different kinds of tough which is really good.

Caesans, on the other hand, feel remarkable only for their *lack* of qualities. This changes later on with psionics, of course, but no other alien has to wait half the game to get their distinguishing feature. Earlier psions, as was done in 22.7, might be a way to help with this. But I'd argue that psions would need a power other than Fear in order for it to make a noticeable difference. Perhaps give them Berserk as well, albeit with a lower psionic strength or whatever than the Officer? Something like that might be enough just to give Caesans a little more character in the early game, without making that much difference to difficulty).

[Max_Caine]

I personally think Psions could use Paralyse, but just to comment on this, I wasn't mocking Caesans. I honestly think that every game with a racial ensemble needs a scrubby race to bring the other racial types into relief. The Grunts from Halo did that admirably - Elites, Jackals, Brutes and (I forget their name now) were far fewer than the Grunts, but you could feel the difference between the scrubby little Grunts and every other racial type.

[StellarRat]

Every game needs "red shirts". That's one of little goodies you look forward too. It keeps things interesting. You go from the dreaded Andron mission to the "red shirts". The spice of life.

[legit1337]

I actually agree with Max_Caine...

Caesans in xenonauts fulfill the "generic alien" niche.

Sure sebs, androns, and praetors have things that make them more scary, and are in a sense "stronger" then the caesans. But every game needs a generic low-level enemy that makes the big bads stand out more. Just like in X-COM the sectoids and floaters were the weakest races. Just because they weren't as strong as mutons or ethereals didn't mean they did not have their place in the game.

The caesans also have psionics. The only other race to have that is the praetors (who are the "big bads") and that makes caesans pretty special IMO.

The alien races do not have to be perfectly balanced with each other to make the game fun. There is a reason androns do not appear until corvettes.

[StellarRat]

The alien races do not have to be perfectly balanced with each other to make the game fun. There is a reason androns do not appear until corvettes.

Exactly.

[asaz989]

I haven't played any v21 builds yet, so no comment about the current balance. Just my two cents about Caesans - when I take casualties against Caesans, it's because of good long-range shooting, and because they're so cautious about leaving cover that it's harder to snipe them from out of range. To make them "scarier" to go up against, but still have a distinct character, maybe buff their (already quite good) accuracy at range? Like a more defensive or cover-aware version of the Harridan snipers. That would also go well with their Xenopedia lore, which is all about them being cautious ranged fighters.

[Skitso]

I think the enemy balance is fairly good at the moment, but it's true that the early game caesans are noticeably easier than sebillians.

As caesans are already rather accurate, I wouldn't increase that any higher in early game, but rather buff the fear (or whatever the first psionic power is called) psionic power, as it hardly ever causes any effects or forces me to think my tactics. Also, while I think the buffed sebillian regeneration ability is fine as it is, the early ones should probably regenerate a bit slower to smoothen the difficulty curve.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Skitso

[kabill]

Sure sebs, androns, and praetors have things that make them more scary, and are in a sense "stronger" then the caesans. But every game needs a generic low-level enemy that makes the big bads stand out more. Just like in X-COM the sectoids and floaters were the weakest races. Just because they weren't as strong as mutons or ethereals didn't mean they did not have their place in the game.

The trouble is, though, that Xenonauts introduces the low-level enemy alongside one of the toughest enemy types in the game (i.e. Sebillians). The two races are introduced at the same time - right at the beginning of the game - but one of them is considerably more dangerous than the other.

If there was some scaling - say Caesans only for the first few weeks, or significantly reduced probability of Sebillians compared with Caesans for a while - then it would be fine. But that isn't the case, and I think that if you're going to have two enemy types appear concurrently with one another, then it's a good idea to make them vaguely equivalent in terms of their level of threat and danger.

The caesans also have psionics. The only other race to have that is the praetors (who are the "big bads") and that makes caesans pretty special IMO.

For sure, yes. But Caesans have to wait half the game before they get psionic powers worth mentioning. In contrast, all the other aliens get their showcase traits right from the start.

The alien races do not have to be perfectly balanced with each other to make the game fun. There is a reason androns do not appear until corvettes.

You're right, and this issue isn't a big deal at all. But arguing that change isn't necessary isn't the same as arguing that change isn't beneficial. In other words, it's hardly a deal-breaker, but I remain convinced that there's some merit in giving Caesan's something to make them noticeable early game.

Edited May 9, 2014 by kabill

[legit1337]

The trouble is, though, that Xenonauts introduces the low-level enemy alongside one of the toughest enemy types in the game (i.e. Sebillians). The two races are introduces at the same time - right at the beginning of the game - but one of them is considerably more dangerous than the other.

If there was some scaling - say Caesans only for the first few weeks, or significantly reduced probability of Sebillians compared with Caesans for a while - then it would be fine. But that isn't the case, and I think that if you're going to have two enemy types appear concurrently with one another, then it's a good idea to make them vaguely equivalent in terms of their level of threat and danger.

Fair point.

IMO I've always thought that sebs should have way lower accuracy then they have had. 10 points of accuracy does not make for a good translation of "poor eyesight" in-game. I was thinking something along the lines of like a good 30 points lower then a caesan. Perhaps this would alleviate the strength differences between the two?

Sebs would become close-range brawlers, and I think it would mesh with their agressive AI that always tries to get as close to you as possible.

Edited May 9, 2014 by legit1337

[dpelectric]

Agree with Max and Stellar on this one. Every game needs its redshirts. Fighting weaker caesans is how you level your guys so they're ready for corvettes, androns, terror missions, etc. And having caesans only for the first few weeks would be just plain boring.

Kabill, I think you're looking at this from the perspective of a veteran player. When the game is released, I would think the great majority of people will be happy with caesans just as they are. Yes, to experienced gamers they may be a little weak, but the whole beauty of Xenonauts is that you can go into the files any time you want and change almost any stats you want. Don't like pushover caesans? Go ahead, give them 300 HP and 300 TUs. Players like you can infinitely customize the campaign to match their skills. But with an eye to a larger audience, I wouldn't change the vanilla stats- there's enough of a learning curve for beginners already.

[legit1337]

Kabill is not arguing for caesans to be buffed to praetor levels. He is saying it is just strange that sebs are so much stronger, but are introduced at the same time as the caesans. Which is a perfectly logical argument let's be honest.

I really don't care that caesans are weaker then praetors or androns. But the alien "progression" is sort of messed up when you have two races, introduced at the same time who have a massively different difficulty. Caesans and sebs are supposed to be roughly equivilant in combat ability, and according to the lore the caesans are either higher or equivilant to the sebs on the alien hierarchy chart. It really makes no sense from a lore, or gameplay perspective that sebs are that much stronger then caesans.

Edited May 9, 2014 by legit1337

[dpelectric]

Disagree. Who says two races from prob two different planets should be equivalent in strength? And in the long run, with the addition of psionics, caesans become at least as much of a threat as sebs. I stand by what I said: the game needs redshirts, particularly for a larger audience, and more skilled players can happily adjust early-game caesans to appear in any numbers at any strength they wish.

[Chris]

I think new players can just play it on the easier difficulty settings if the game is too hard. The idea is that Sebillians and Caesans should be equally effective in combat, but in different ways.

I'm changing the morale system a little bit at the moment which may make the early psions more debilitating.

[kabill]

Ugh, had a fairly lengthy reply but actually it's probably better to try and reduce it down a bit. Here are the highlights:

- Redshirts are fine, yes. Happy with that.

- Caesans being redshirts is fine in principle.

- Caesans being redshirts is problematic in practice, however, because they appear concurrently with Sebillians and it's entirely random which you face.

- As such, I'm not convinced by the argument that Caesans are a 'training' enemy since its more than possible that you'll fight relatively few of them compared with other races.

- Accordingly, it's also quite random whether you face a relatively easy early game or a relatively tough one.

- Isn't difficulty better off determined by a difficulty level selected by the player rather than RNG? A new player facing Sebillians as their first enemy is going to find it hard-going, while facing Caesans will be much easier, and that's probably not a good thing.

EDIT: Or, what Chris wrote with all the brevity I apparently couldn't manage!

I'll concede that my preference for buffing Caesans as opposed to nerfing Sebillians (which is the other way you could level the two) is probably a factor of me being an experienced player (and, also, because I like hard games!). Indeed, the latter might actually be a better option in view of new players, since not only do Sebs have a lot of tricks but they'll also be unknown to new players who will be wasting time throwing smoke around and stuff which is just not going to help them at all. Still, for me Sebs are spot on in terms of difficulty at the moment, which is why I'd like to see other things moved instead.

Anyway, I'm not sure there's anything else I can say that won't be repetition, so I'll leave it alone now. As you say, it's easy enough to mod things in any case. (Psionic shields are my idea-for-the-day.)

Edited May 9, 2014 by kabill

[Chris]

I actually think the Sebillians could do with a slight reduction in their Reactions. They're a bit too good defensively inside UFOs right now.

[legit1337]

Who says two races from prob two different planets should be equivalent in strength?

The lore.

If by "strength" you mean combat ability. Sebs are supposed to be tougher, and caesans more clever and better shots. But they are both supposed to be "grunt" level aliens that repesent the same level of threat.

I actually think the Sebillians could do with a slight reduction in their Reactions. They're a bit too good defensively inside UFOs right now.

Thanks chris. That will help. Will you also consider an accuracy reduction? From what I understand, sebs are on average only 10 accuracy points behind caesans, which as I said earlier does not seem like enough IMO.

Edited May 9, 2014 by legit1337

[Max_Caine]

Having read the discussion carefully, I notice that stats aside while other races have pan-race gimmicks, Caesans are different that only some of their number have a racial gimmick. I'm not sure what it'd be like to give every Caesan a psychic power.. say.... I dunno... uh... Fear? Dread? Something along those lines? but would giving all Caesans a psychic power be what makes Caesans a more challenging enemy?

[kabill]

I actually think the Sebillians could do with a slight reduction in their Reactions. They're a bit too good defensively inside UFOs right now.

That seems like pretty good idea. Unlike other aliens, it's quite hard to stop Sebillians being able to take reaction shots because of their suppression resistance and immunity to smoke. Nerfing their reactions a bit more would help counter that.

Having read the discussion carefully, I notice that stats aside while other races have pan-race gimmicks, Caesans are different that only some of their number have a racial gimmick.

That's kind of what I was getting at when I was writing about 'flavour' above. All the other races* have something that really marks them out; Caesans kind of do, but they only get it half-way through the game (panic notwithstanding, although hopefully the morale changes Chris mentioned will help with this).

I've actually tried the idea you suggest in a mod I've made, but I've been unconvinced by the outcome. The main issue for me was that, ironically, it made Caesans *easier* because sometimes they would use their psionic attack instead of shooting. AI dealing with this would obviously help, though.

* That's a lie, since Harridans suffer from the same problem. In theory, they have really high aim and reactions, but it's never felt like this in practice. Maybe when they're flying it will be different, though (that's no in the game yet, is it? Or have I just entirely missed it?)

[Caaygun]

To put my two cents into this, I suggest that after being balanced to roughly be similar in power, there also be some AI difference between these races as well.

I really liked the idea incurred by those Seb officers rushing me everytime in the previous build, he was leading his warriors on the charge against the attacker humans. Caesan officer would hole up in his command room wreaking mental havoc on your weaker minded soldiers, the effect of which would increase as you close on him. Such a difference would make it more felt that these two races are not just cosmetically different (after their power is balanced though).

For balancing Caesans and Sebilians, I think non MC psionics could be buffed a little maybe and made more routinely causing TU loss or suppression for affected soldiers apart from occasional more severe effects (like rarely shooting teammates etc.). Also Seb reaction and accuracy to be reduced as was suggested above.

[Chris]

I'm not sure lowering Seb accuracy any further is worth doing - they'd become hilariously ineffective if you did, as they also generally have access to less accurate weapons than the Caesans. If the differential between them and Caesans is too low than Caesan accuracy would have to rise instead.

[Gauddlike]

Could you mimic the effect of poorer vision by increasing the Sebilians minimum accuracy cutoff without adjusting their actual accuracy?

Currently both Caesans and Sebillians will fire only if they have at least 35% chance to hit.

If you increased the Sebillian chance to 45%, for example, then they would be less likely to fire from long range or against very well covered targets but without affecting their accuracy against those targets they do attack.

It plays into their lore of close range brawlers without making them very poor shots when they do engage.

[Skitso]

On the other hand, if you'd decrease the tolerance to, say 15%, we'd probably see much more low accuracy shots.

[Gauddlike]

It does depend on how you want them to act.

If they can fire lower accuracy shots they will likely attack from further away than currently.

They will still be shorter range (due to their shorter engagement range) and miss more than Caesans which does look like poorer eyesight.

If they wait for better shots they will likely fire from shorter range but not suffer an accuracy penalty over how they are currently, so not hilariously ineffective.

I think that also mimics poorer eyesight but promotes the close in fighting role.

The downside is that they may end up reserving more TU if they are less likely to fire shots in their own turn but if Chris does reduce their reflexes that shouldn't be a massive problem to avoid as a player.