Map variation

[Skitso]

I just got to a first new terror map and I gotta say... Wow!

I had huge kicks out of a fresh, beautifully crafted map I hadn't seen before. Nice work GH! I just hope we'll get even more variation and randomization to crash site maps too. (maybe times three?) I just realized how much previously unknown maps does for the tension and overall fun factor of the game.

[Chris]

The new update due today has 9 new soviet town maps, plus a bunch of new alien base maps too. Adding more maps to the final game is something we'd like to do but we'll see how it goes. There's already about 100 maps in the game...it's just amazing quite how many a game needs to sustain long play sessions.

[Skitso]

Out of curiosity... how many man hours/days it takes to make a GH quality terror map? I guess when there's enough sub maps done, the maps itself are quite fast to make.

I'd love to help you guys out and make some maps (I love mapping), but the tools are a bit uh.... unintuitive.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Skitso

[Darth Draken]

More terror maps. I only ever seem.to get one type of map for it. The one where you land in the park surrounded by flower boxes and single bus stop on one side.

But i feel more maps will increase the game. And more urban maps. Lots of homes. Shopping areas. Cities..

[Chris]

Draken - are you using the Experimental builds?

[legit1337]

@chris

Are there easy to use modding tools so that players can create their own maps? I would be more then happy to submit a few if that is the case.

[Ol' Stinky]

@chris

Are there easy to use modding tools so that players can create their own maps? I would be more then happy to submit a few if that is the case.

I feel a bit dirty for linking one of my own posts but: have you had a look at the mapping subforum and the how-to thread? The only tricky parts are extracting the tiles files and getting a grip on the submap editor. The former because it's easy to misplace the files and the latter because it's powerful, so it's always going to take some learning time.

If you're happy to use existing buildings and the like, it's easy to make maps. GH should be given major kudos for this, imo, too many games nowadays that would benefit from a map editor don't include one. My only gripe with the map editor is that we can't place spawns on specific levels, so dropships/UFO can never be on anything except layer 0. As I understand it, that's an engine constraint and there's nothing to be done about it.

The only reason I'm not making any more maps at the moment is because a) I want people to talk about what they do and don't like about maps and b) see where the default map sizes end up. Community Map Pack 2 is already out of date with v21 experimental because the maps are generally too large in relation to number of aliens now. If that doesn't bother you, go right ahead.

[Skitso]

I made a few maps today and found it surprisingly easy! Submaps on the other hand are painfully time consuming and hard to make. As there are only few different sub maps per tile set, the maps are quickly feeling a bit samey regardless of the layout. Is GH planning on making more official sub maps for the game? Doubling their amount (different size buildings) would make mapping a breeze and help the community to improve the lacking map situation.

[Chris]

Doubling the amount of submaps for seven tilesets would take a long time - you've said yourself how much of a pain it is to create new ones. We may add some new ones in the polishing phase, but we think we've got enough in the game at the moment for it to be suitable to release.

[Skitso]

Well, I'm not sure if all the tilesets would need more sub map variation but at least the crash site ones...? Especially desert and middle east as they tend to be the most common tile sets for crash sites. (as starting base is ofter in n. africa)

[Chris]

Still a big job to double the number of sub-maps though. Adding more is something we'll consider, but as I said above it does depend on time constraints.

[Skitso]

Hope you find time! Remember how Firaxis' game got criticised for having way too few maps. And that game's overall play through mission count is a fraction of Xenonauts'.

(I'd love the desert tileset to have prop variation for something else than military theme, also farm tileset could have some real houses in addition to barns and sheds)

Edited February 17, 2014 by Skitso

[Chris]

Oh, you mean actually adding new tiles? No, we're not planning to do that tbh (aside from maybe a few new props if needed). The time it takes to feed them through the system from 3D to 2D paintover to tested in-game maps is probably too long nowadays.

[Skitso]

Well at first I did mean sub-maps, but then proceeded to demand new tiles too!

[AIL]

The OG had random maps. Why not this one?

[Skitso]

Because hand crafted unique maps play and look nicer than random ones. And coding a system that can create good random maps is really time consuming to do.

[Max_Caine]

AIL, to prevent the random map debate igniting again go read this thread especially the bits where experienced mapmakers communicate their personal experiences of random mapping.

[Chris]

Trust me, we've tried it both ways and the semi-randomised current method is better.

[jimmyjazz1975]

Hi All,

I just wanted to chip in about Xenonauts mapping, given my own experience playing about 2-3 hours at the start of the game.

So overall, I was blown away by my first game. I haven't tried playing Xenonauts since the Kickstarter campaign, so it's really gratifying to see everything come together. The UI, gameplay balance and tweaks, it's all looking awesome.

However there was one thing that really didn't work for me, and you've probably guessed by now - it was the static map layouts.

My experience went like this:

1) Start game

2) First UFO mission - success! This is awesome!

3) Do some research, order some more scientists and soliders, fun fun fun.

4) Second UFO mission - wait a second, this is exactly the same map as last time. *rage quit*

The fact that the second mission was essentially the same as the first kind of ruined it for me. I was completely hooked by everything up to that point, and thinking "This is really recreating the original X-COM, but with many annoyances removed, absolutely brilliant!". Then hitting the same map again really spoiled it for me.

I appreciate from reading the other threads that there are limitations / difficulties that make it harder to create truly random maps. But hitting the same map again, immediately after the first was awful.

Anyway that's my Beta feedback. Thanks again for all the hard work, it's really coming together.

Thanks,

Jim

[Aaron]

@jimmyjazz1975 - I'm surprised you had a repeat map, as we actually have code in the game that should prevent the game from loading the same map twice - it will always try to give you a map from the current tileset which you have played on the least. I will look into it, perhaps that code has become broken somehow.

[Gauddlike]

It would be nice to know which map as well, just in case there is a problem with that specific tileset.

If a map is invalid in some way then there may not be an alternative to select.

I assume if it was the first mission it was a light scout map, was it on farm land, an industrial area etc?

[jimmyjazz1975]

OK, good to know it shouldn't have been the same map

It was a desert map, where the dropship was in the middle right corner, and the light scout was in the upper corner. There were a few tanks, boulders, and buildings scattered around. It felt like a desert military base, which was also odd considering the scout was intercepted. It *might* have been hovering though, can't say for sure.

I do have the save game, if you'd like me to provide it.

There was one other annoying bug too - I had an alien cornered in their ship, and was closing in on the entrance from both sides. A couple of my soldiers were right next to the UFO, and I was being ultra cautious with the approach. Then on the alien's next turn, I lost two soldiers to close fire (I think it was two, anyway) - the alien had shot my soliders through the corner of the UFO. On my next turn, I tried to retaliate but all I got was a solid wall...

That was quite annoying because I'd had a good mission up to that point, but ended up with three dead soliders rather than one

[Lidhuin]

I think desert maps today feel like how arctic maps used to feel. I haven't had any issues with arctic maps, but desert maps do tend towards two types that don't have a lot of internal variance.

[Skitso]

You could download my desert map collection. It has 10 new maps for added variation: http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/9155-Skitso-s-Desert-map-collection

[Ol' Stinky]

I think desert maps today feel like how arctic maps used to feel. I haven't had any issues with arctic maps, but desert maps do tend towards two types that don't have a lot of internal variance.

"Wilderness" and "military base", right? If you have more ideas, don't be afraid to share them. I think there'll be more variation once there's a bigger map maker community and people with art skills create assets; I can't make desert maps that have archeological digsites (tents, remains, ruins) or mines/caves (cliff face wall, mine carts and tracks, lighting, stalagmites and stalagtites, rock pools, digging equipment) because I can't draw. To begin with, there's going to be a lot of asset reuse.