Difficulty level suggestions

[Aaron]

Surely by that reasoning we should just disable saves entirely? The thing is, if people want to abuse Ironman mode to break it, they just will - making secure systems that are genuinely secure is very hard (I have some experience in this from previous jobs), and the resources we would have to expend to make Ironman mode un-abusable would be far in excess of the benefit. Particularly when we can just say "Hey, maybe don't abuse Ironman mode?" and anybody who really cares about having that experience will just not Alt-F4 to load saves or whatever work around they find.

[NoirWolf]

Surely by that reasoning we should just disable saves entirely? The thing is, if people want to abuse Ironman mode to break it, they just will - making secure systems that are genuinely secure is very hard (I have some experience in this from previous jobs), and the resources we would have to expend to make Ironman mode un-abusable would be far in excess of the benefit. Particularly when we can just say "Hey, maybe don't abuse Ironman mode?" and anybody who really cares about having that experience will just not Alt-F4 to load saves or whatever work around they find.

By that token anyone who wants ironman mode can just not save and rely on outsaves , just saying.

[Osvir]

As I said, I'll just do it manually ("Documents\Xenonauts") and delete the Auto-Saves as I go about and I'll keep the last one when I stop playing the game. Not a big deal. That way I'll get to play the mode I want to play.

EDIT:

Whilst I am in this thread. I noticed that no alien races (except for the Terminators) shoot into the smoke of smoke grenades. This makes most of the game very easy (but very slow). It's feels like I am throwing out magical walls. There's more but first...

So I decided to play on Insane, got all the way to the "Base Defense" mission before I decided to take a break.

Anyways, the first Terror Site mission I did hit me pretty hard. I only had Jekyl armor and starter guns. All of my units losing morale by the second, enemies shooting everywhere, there were like 5 Discs and 12 Terminators (Sorry I don't know their names... yet ) taking out the entire town. Then one of the Terminators went down, and the morale began to creep up slowly. Another one went down. Then another one. Managed to pick up a couple of their alien guns and the battle truly began. Blew off half a building with a C4 too (got a Termintor in the blast too!). It was so many levels of epic. Lost 4 soldiers though

Thanks to what? Smoke grenades.

I'd never gotten that far in the game if it weren't for smoke grenades. They act like, previously stated, magical walls against all races (even the Terminator race at times, although they do shoot into it as well from time to time) and it seems to mess up their AI as well (I get Aliens who run straight into my units the second I pop a Smoke Grenade, or just run out into the open, giving me more TU because they are closer to me, but without it they stay in cover or do the hit & run tactic into the FoW).

So, Difficulty Level Suggestion/Idea?

- Make more races shoot into the Smoke of the Smoke Grenades on higher difficulties, makes them riskier but at the same time more thrilling. The battle against the Terminators was exciting, I thought I would never succeed (overwhelming indeed!), much of that thanks to them shooting into the Smoke.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Osvir

[Chris]

The key point with iron man is that there is an autosave, but there is only one and it's overwritten every time a major event happens. If you don't autosave regularly then the player can just Ctrl+Alt+Del out when something goes wrong and go back to the save they had at the start of the session. Saving after every major event prevents you going back in time in any way (the entire point of Iron Man) and also provides the player protection from crash bugs or power cuts or whatever.

[Solver]

Regarding Ironman, it should be viewed as an option for gameplay, not a security measure. Of course players who want to use Ironman and still cheat with savegames can do so. Creating even a moderately secure version would be challenging and frankly not necessary. If someone really wants to go back to previous saves in Ironman and is willing to use all sorts of tricks to do so, well, that's their problem. Might as well edit the game files to give your soldiers 500 hit points each and blast through the missions. A good Ironman solution in the battle mode is just to overwrite the autosave each turn. Prevents going back in time while protecting against crashes.

The current behaviour of smoke I consider to be a bug. I think it's supposed to decrease accuracy, not outright prevent aliens from shooting. Apparently the game considers smoke tiles not to be shootable through, so you get a red line when firing through the smoke - even though it is still possible to shoot and even hit targets. Currently smoke is broken in the sense that it can act as an invulnerability field if thrown on your soldiers, or as a fire-preventing field if thrown on aliens. Smoke aliens and they will refuse to fire at anything that is not adjacent to them.

Terror missions are also a bit buggy in terms of how aliens behave and possibly how spawn points are placed. My experience is that you begin a terror mission and then aliens just converge onto your dropship. You don't really fight on the map, you fight to secure the surroundings of your ship, and as soon as you've done so the mission ends because all the aliens run to the ship. On occasion I've seen a lone alien couple be stuck in a corner, but at least on small terror maps either all, or all except two, aliens will just assault your dropship.

[Solver]

Regarding Ironman, it should be viewed as an option for gameplay, not a security measure. Of course players who want to use Ironman and still cheat with savegames can do so. Creating even a moderately secure version would be challenging and frankly not necessary. If someone really wants to go back to previous saves in Ironman and is willing to use all sorts of tricks to do so, well, that's their problem. Might as well edit the game files to give your soldiers 500 hit points each and blast through the missions. A good Ironman solution in the battle mode is just to overwrite the autosave each turn. Prevents going back in time while protecting against crashes.

The current behaviour of smoke I consider to be a bug. I think it's supposed to decrease accuracy, not outright prevent aliens from shooting. Apparently the game considers smoke tiles not to be shootable through, so you get a red line when firing through the smoke - even though it is still possible to shoot and even hit targets. Currently smoke is broken in the sense that it can act as an invulnerability field if thrown on your soldiers, or as a fire-preventing field if thrown on aliens. Smoke aliens and they will refuse to fire at anything that is not adjacent to them.

Terror missions are also a bit buggy in terms of how aliens behave and possibly how spawn points are placed. My experience is that you begin a terror mission and then aliens just converge onto your dropship. You don't really fight on the map, you fight to secure the surroundings of your ship, and as soon as you've done so the mission ends because all the aliens run to the ship. On occasion I've seen a lone alien couple be stuck in a corner, but at least on small terror maps either all, or all except two, aliens will just assault your dropship.

[Osvir]

The key point with iron man is that there is an autosave, but there is only one and it's overwritten every time a major event happens. If you don't autosave regularly then the player can just Ctrl+Alt+Del out when something goes wrong and go back to the save they had at the start of the session. Saving after every major event prevents you going back in time in any way (the entire point of Iron Man) and also provides the player protection from crash bugs or power cuts or whatever.

And that contradicts what the game is allowing me to do. Two scenarios.

A) Just finished a mission. UFO appears. I send a Condor at it, appears to be too difficult, lost a Condor. I can load the auto-save. I'll redo everything I did at the base, no worries (Research/Manufacturing/Equipment).

B) So I down the UFO then I send in my units to start a mission. Lost a couple of guys. No worries though I'll just load a game before the mission. I'll redo everything I did at the base, no worries (Research/Manufacturing/Equipment).

What I am curious about is if there is a possibility to include two strings in the config file in the "Documents" folder, but it is no big deal really (because I can just do it manually by tabbing out of the game and remove the auto-saves and keep 1 before I quit, as I've already stated).

Auto-Save = 1

Save & Quit = 0

Is it possible to "bind" the [save Game] or [Auto-Save] function to the [Exit Game] button?

Psuedo-Code~ for "Save & Quit"

IF [Exit Game Function] = Do [Auto-Save Function] first then [Exit Program Function] second

As for crashes and such, I'd take the risk. The game hasn't frozen and/or crashed on me yet and it's not even complete yet, which only makes me believe it'll get more stable as time progresses.

[NoirWolf]

And that contradicts what the game is allowing me to do. Two scenarios.

A) Just finished a mission. UFO appears. I send a Condor at it, appears to be too difficult, lost a Condor. I can load the auto-save. I'll redo everything I did at the base, no worries (Research/Manufacturing/Equipment).

B) So I down the UFO then I send in my units to start a mission. Lost a couple of guys. No worries though I'll just load a game before the mission. I'll redo everything I did at the base, no worries (Research/Manufacturing/Equipment).

What I am curious about is if there is a possibility to include two strings in the config file in the "Documents" folder, but it is no big deal really (because I can just do it manually by tabbing out of the game and remove the auto-saves and keep 1 before I quit, as I've already stated).

Auto-Save = 1

Save & Quit = 0

Is it possible to "bind" the [save Game] or [Auto-Save] function to the [Exit Game] button?

Psuedo-Code~ for "Save & Quit"

IF [Exit Game Function] = Do [Auto-Save Function] first then [Exit Program Function] second

As for crashes and such, I'd take the risk. The game hasn't frozen and/or crashed on me yet and it's not even complete yet, which only makes me believe it'll get more stable as time progresses.

By what I know of programming Osvir if they add in anything similar to prevent save scumming via alt-f4-ing they could run into issues of permanently corrupted save files.

[Osvir]

By what I know of programming Osvir if they add in anything similar to prevent save scumming via alt-f4-ing they could run into issues of permanently corrupted save files.

So put a warning text in there. Are the devs supposed to say "Sorry about that" when gamers who try to abuse the system whine about their save files getting damaged as a consequence?

Developer: "This is a mode for those who want a challenge!"

Gamer 1: "Awesome!"

Gamer 2: "This mode ruined my save file when I tried to abuse it!"

Developer: "Sorry Gamer 2, we'll fix that for you"

What I know of programming is that the ALT+F4 method wouldn't activate the Exit Game function in the same way. [Exit Game] in the game is a [button] that you have to click. So bind the [save State] function to that Button is what I meant.

More psuedo-code:

IF [Exit Game Button] is clicked = Do [save State Function] first then [Exit Program Function] second

Compared to:

IF [ALT+F4] = Force Close Program (I.E. Not pressing any "buttons" in the same sense, because you are skipping the [Exit Game Button] which runs the code sequence that prompts the [save State Function])

Furthermore, why would I even press ALT+F4 to begin with when I can just Tab out and copy all the save files as it currently is? And why would I ALT+F4 when I can just, you know, load the last Auto-Save as it currently is?

Why would I ALT+F4 at all if looking at the below method, which is what I am suggesting:

A) No Auto-Saves

B) Save & Quit

C) Load & Delete

In this example I virtually have no safety of a save file. If the game has a "Warning Text" I'll also be aware. One life. I make a mistake I make a mistake. ALT+F4 wouldn't recover the save file. There are no auto-saves. The only thing I could do to abuse it would be to copy the save file when I've quit the game. It's "rogue-like" in a way.

Warning Text could be just this: "If you pick this Mode you'll only save when you exit the game and whenever you load the game the old save is deleted. If you have experienced crashes with this game, this mode is not recommended for you"

Edited September 27, 2013 by Osvir

[NoirWolf]

So put a warning text in there. Are the devs supposed to say "Sorry about that" when gamers who try to abuse the system whine about their save files getting damaged as a consequence?

Sometimes I wonder if people have horse goggles on: There's such a thing as game crashes smartass, those can happen for any number of reasons, so do system crashes, power outages, something in the house suddenly deciding to short and cutting the power to all the house, etc. With your idea you'd potentially fuck with allot of people's saves just to add in a safety feature for a game mode which is optional.

[Dranak]

As someone that exclusively plays Ironman Osvir, I hate the idea you're suggesting. Potentially losing hours of play time just to inconvenience someone that wants to save scum through an optional gameplay mode would really piss me off if it happened. I don't want to have to exit out periodically just to save my progress.

[Osvir]

Sometimes I wonder if people have horse goggles on: There's such a thing as game crashes smartass, those can happen for any number of reasons, so do system crashes, power outages, something in the house suddenly deciding to short and cutting the power to all the house, etc. With your idea you'd potentially fuck with allot of people's saves just to add in a safety feature for a game mode which is optional.

Yes, and what I am suggesting is something optional as well. Let Ironman be like it is currently (Imma call it Ironman Light though, not in spite or to insult anyone, I mean no disrespect, but that's how I see it. It's just my opinion mates). My suggestion is to include these optional switches in the config file with the default values as shown below:

Auto-Save = 1

Save & Quit = 0

^It'd be just as optional to turn "Auto-Save" to "0" and "Save & Quit" to "1" as checking the "Ironman" box in-game. I haven't added this but I guess it is relevant:

Delete Save file after Loaded = 0

^That's ideas and suggestions for the "C:\Users\[Name]\Documents\Xenonauts\gameconfig.xml" file.

As someone that exclusively plays Ironman Osvir, I hate the idea you're suggesting. Potentially losing hours of play time just to inconvenience someone that wants to save scum through an optional gameplay mode would really piss me off if it happened. I don't want to have to exit out periodically just to save my progress.

Why do you think I am targeting the people that exploit these systems? I am targeting myself, what I want, not for the inconvenience of anyone else but what Mode I want to play on. And I intend to play it as such, regardless if this suggestion is something that is implemented or not, because I can manually implement it myself.

I am speaking out of preference and what rules I am playing after (ironically btw, it is Ironman rules).

I've already said this though, but I'll say it again:

I'll do it manually (I.E. When I've finished a mission or when I load a game = ALT+TAB -> Delete Auto-Save -> Continue Game. When I feel I want to take a break = Finish mission -> Keep last Save). What I am suggesting is what Ironman used to be. Firaxis got it somewhat right for XCOM Enemy Unknown. Though I don't think the Save File is Deleted when you Load the game in XCOM (what with the Auto-Saves).

Also Dranak, exiting the game in what I am suggesting wouldn't help you at all, because when the game is loaded the Save file would be deleted. And if you would Copy the Save File after Quitting you would commit the act of "Save Scumming" or though I think this is a better source "scumming".

[GizmoGomez]

Yes, and what I am suggesting is something optional as well. Let Ironman be like it is currently (Imma call it Ironman Light though, not in spite or to insult anyone, I mean no disrespect, but that's how I see it. It's just my opinion mates). My suggestion is to include these optional switches in the config file with the default values as shown below:

Auto-Save = 1

Save & Quit = 0

^It'd be just as optional to turn "Auto-Save" to "0" and "Save & Quit" to "1" as checking the "Ironman" box in-game. I haven't added this but I guess it is relevant:

Delete Save file after Loaded = 0

^That's ideas and suggestions for the "C:\Users\[Name]\Documents\Xenonauts\gameconfig.xml" file.

Why do you think I am targeting the people that exploit these systems? I am targeting myself, what I want, not for the inconvenience of anyone else but what Mode I want to play on. And I intend to play it as such, regardless if this suggestion is something that is implemented or not, because I can manually implement it myself.

I am speaking out of preference and what rules I am playing after (ironically btw, it is Ironman rules).

I've already said this though, but I'll say it again:

I'll do it manually (I.E. When I've finished a mission or when I load a game = ALT+TAB -> Delete Auto-Save -> Continue Game. When I feel I want to take a break = Finish mission -> Keep last Save). What I am suggesting is what Ironman used to be. Firaxis got it somewhat right for XCOM Enemy Unknown. Though I don't think the Save File is Deleted when you Load the game in XCOM (what with the Auto-Saves).

Also Dranak, exiting the game in what I am suggesting wouldn't help you at all, because when the game is loaded the Save file would be deleted. And if you would Copy the Save File after Quitting you would commit the act of "Save Scumming" or though I think this is a better source "scumming".

TL;DR

I have a super simple suggestion for you, and it will solve all of your personal save-scumming problems:

Don't "abuse the system" yourself and reload autosaves at all, but only reload saves you made yourself.

Ta Da!

Your problem is now solved.

[Osvir]

TL;DR

I have a super simple suggestion for you, and it will solve all of your personal save-scumming problems:

Don't "abuse the system" yourself and reload autosaves at all, but only reload saves you made yourself.

Ta Da!

Your problem is now solved.

Which is exactly what I've said 3 or 4 times already

- Delete every single Save File that comes out of that Auto-Save when I finish a mission

- Keep the last Save File before quitting the game

- Repeat when Loading the game

[Gorlom]

Which is exactly what I've said 3 or 4 times already

- Delete every single Save File that comes out of that Auto-Save when I finish a mission

- Keep the last Save File before quitting the game

- Repeat when Loading the game

I dont get it. why do you bother with deleting all the autosaves? Dont they overwrite themselves? just ignore them and use the autosave again when you start on a new session.

[GizmoGomez]

Which is exactly what I've said 3 or 4 times already

- Delete every single Save File that comes out of that Auto-Save when I finish a mission

- Keep the last Save File before quitting the game

- Repeat when Loading the game

No, I was saying you can do that yourself without the devs spending precious time and treasure on adding a feature that frankly doesn't sound all that great or needed.

I mean, honestly, if you're choosing Iron Man, is it because you're somehow super weak-willed and know that you're going to save scum unless you literally cannot do so? Are you so concerned about the mere possibility that you may submit to the temptation of reloading an autosave that you want the developers to add a special mode that prevents you from doing so? I cannot see the appeal, unless you literally cannot stop yourself from save scumming and "abusing the system", as you call it.

Personally, I don't even see the point of playing with iron man mode. I mean, I know that I'm not going to save scum, but I also know that I want to be prepared for a game-killing crash or a power outage or something outside of my control. Why remove the possibility to recover from an odd corrupted save file, or a crashed game, or the like, when the whole point of iron man mode, "You can't save scum", isn't even an issue for me?

Does iron man mode make the game harder? No, it doesn't. You'll still get your butt kicked just as hard with or without it. What it does do is provide a "safety measure" or a crutch to players who think that save scumming is "below them", and yet are afraid of the day when they'll resort to save scumming themselves. It only "benefits" the weak-willed.

Disclaimer

I'm sorry if this sounds rather sharp or confrontational; I'm just trying to clearly state my point. Any offense is not intended.

[Osvir]

Resorting to @ commenting now, otherwise the post will just get too big**.

@Gorlom: For the experience. Knowing I have a backup in the back of my head doesn't adhere to the experience, even if I'm not using it. It's psychological. I lost 4 of my best soldiers against the terminators on a terror site mission, I continued and pulled through. But I did have the lingering question "Should I just Load?". This goes to GizmoGomez as well, it's not that I am weak-willed, it's just not the same experience knowing I have a backup when I expect to have no backup in Ironman. Self-achievement challenge stuff.

Mindset wise, there is a difference in having a backup and not having a backup.

@GizmoGomez: We are on the same page then because that's what I've been trying to say as well if the devs don't have the time or resources for it (been waiting for that argument ;P) I'll find the workaround to get the Mode I want to experience myself. A little bit of a repeat but I am playing on Ironman because it is thrilling and more exciting than normal mode. There's a sense of achievement in it, when pulling through a really difficult battle or managing to progress against all odds with a "no-point-of-return" mentality. There's also more learning and insights in mechanics because there are no room for mistakes, and if I make a mistake I quickly learn not to do it again, because it can cause disaster. The whole point of what I wanted wasn't to remove the Ironman as it is, but to add in an abstractly more "immersive" Ironman on top of it. One does not have to exclude the other. Namely Ironman Light and True Ironman.

It has nothing to do with weak-willed or strong-willed. "True" Ironman adds in an immersion factor.

@Disclaimer: Don't worry about it mate, it's a discussion

@Difficulty Level Discussion (Thread): I am playing on Insane Difficulty because I love a challenge. Maybe I should put this in the introduction thread or whatnot but many if not all of my posts are considering the highest level of difficulty (bear this in mind if you play on a lower difficulty*, my ideas aren't targeting your difficulty, it's targeting mine).

So, what else can I say about that? I think... the Terror Site mission I got was awesome, and I'd love to see more of that but even as soon as in Month 1. Caesans or Sibellians with stronger weapons and more of them in general during regular missions.

Also, there's always 2 or 3 aliens in the ship every mission and they are super easy to handle and they never leave the ship and keep the door closed, making it very easy to engage it and set up an attack on it. I'd prefer if something happened to up the difficulty. Maybe the Light Scout guns could still be active and shoot at or towards anything in front of it (thus making a direct frontal assault much more difficult). Maybe they could run out every now and then and fire their guns too, it is very easy to out-position the aliens in their ship. Maybe they can have some sort of "door" cover or whatnot that you can only jump over (akin to fences). Something that makes it harder to engage the ships.

Flanking backup spawns?

Are traps (Mines, Nets, Stuns, Gas you name it) considered to be implemented? Because that could also be a thing to make difficulty harder (though that would require some sort of trap-detecting item for balance, and that trap-detecting item in turn should then be an item of TU resource management~brainstorm).

I think Maps are part of the difficulty as well, as most maps allow the Player to easily get out of the ship without getting flanked in any way. So spawning further towards the middle of the map is something I would like to see as well.

* I've been a part of the Project Eternity forums (a Kickstarted game, spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate and the IE games) for about a year. And I've encountered lots of members who say "I don't want that!" to many of my difficulty ideas because they aren't playing on the hardest difficulties which I am targeting. Not trying to ruin your choice of experience, I'm trying to enhance mine

EDIT: And the post got freaking big anyways without the quotes I brainstorm a lot and end up rambling on and on and on. Them fingers fly over the keyboard yo.

** Irony~

Edited September 28, 2013 by Osvir

[Elydo]

Maybe the Light Scout guns could still be active and shoot at or towards anything in front of it (thus making a direct frontal assault much more difficult).

You mean the front where the only entrance is? Covered by a weapon that, at its realistic weakest, would be AoE and able to one shot anything on the field at the time, with the subsequent scaling of weaponry per UFO (as they're no reason only the light scout would have such targeting) making them even more powerful. So no matter the armour development, you're still ash.

Though I guess we could then argue for dropship weapons, which would at least help with that fun happenstance of the ship being surrounded as soon as it touches down. On multiple sides. Which happens frequently to me, so if it doesn't to you I'm guessing the game just hates you and doesn't respect you enough to hurt you. I would prefer the UFO defence aliens to be a little more dynamic though. It's occurred that it might be fun if occasionally the aliens used their ship as bait. One of the victory conditions is to take and hold the UFO for five turns, so how about the aliens abandoning the craft before mission start and trying to avoid contact. Until you get to the craft, breach and clear (to no effect as it's empty, or with one or two aliens left behind to sweeten the trap), reach the control room and the clock starts, and you're attacked by the full complement, not just any stragglers. The difficultly would be having the setup not be obvious to canny players who would then set up defensively before flipping the AI trigger. Maybe the aliens booby-trapped all the doors, which then lock open.

I'd also prefer what some others have mentioned, which is a greater variety of ranks within the alien group per mission. Perhaps higher ranks could give a passive boost to lower ranks, so replacing the current crop of warriors with 60% soldiers instead wouldn't be a net decrease in difficulty. Then you have the option of going after the harder target first to soften the others, or slog through the horde and drop targets one at a time and accept the efficiency hit. It would make those four non-coms in that light scout a little more interesting if they had a warrior coordinating them.

Even without the tank-melting gun being active.

An idea occurs for ironman that would bring it closer to unscummable, if not there: at present the autosave happens at the beginning and end f a mission. For ironman mode, switch it to the beginning of each turn. Even the alien turn, so if you get boned you can't reload your last turn and do things differently.

You do get to alt-f4 out if you want to watch the shafting over and over though.

But have a second autosave that happens more infrequently (beginning of ingame day? End of ingame day?), and that can't be loaded manually. So if something crashes and you can't load your most recent save, you instead delete it and then the auto-autosave will replace it, dare I say, automatically. Saving you some progress. You just delete the one you know you made then there will still be an autosave in the game list you can load.

The progress-loss, if harsh enough, would discourage save-scumming and anyone who would want to go further to get around the restriction, recoding aspects of the game or something, well, let 'em. There's a mode of the game made for not wanting to be stuck with Fate, if they want to try and make life harder for themselves by not using it and instead twisting ironman into what the game already provides, that's up to them.

[Osvir]

Nice stuff Elydo! I like the trap thoughts there, the Aliens playing hide-n-seek with the Player. Maybe some of them (2 or 3) could play guerilla tactics with you so that you are lured into their ambush as well.

Is "Open Alien Door" a general "Open Door" Trigger or is it a specific "Open Alien Door" Trigger? If the latter, I believe lots of things could be done to "trigger" stuff happening when you open the Alien door. Maybe spawn a second (undamaged) UFO on the map as a sort of "Backup Call" and/or after a certain amount of turns have passed. Or just spawn some more off-put Aliens (A.k.a. not right next you, but randomly in the Fog of War or on the Map edges) if spawning a UFO requires too much time/resources from the devs.

Another difficulty adjustment could be Aliens targeting your dropship (maybe planting a bomb or something in it) giving the Player more objectives to think about during a map.

What I meant about the Alien UFO ship weapons being active is it'd have a limited attack range and width. Only direct ahead, maybe a width of 3 or 4 tiles (enough to cover the door) and an effective range of 6-8 tiles because of damage dealt. Another solution to the same idea would be to give the Aliens a mounted big alien gun outside the ship.

I've also been surrounded by Aliens on mission start, but it's usually fairly simple to deal with. Well, not on the Terror Site mission I got on Insane Difficulty. It was awesomely terrifying. Quite epic indeed. I wouldn't have wanted any dropship guns as it would have made the mission easier and less challenging. Furthermore, wouldn't that allow the dropship to engage in air combat?

Gives me an idea for a Research and Manufacture upgrade though, Mounted Machinegun, which you can't move but only used for the very start of the mission.

[Elydo]

Well, my idea about the door was for every door in the UFO to lock open when the 'defend' timer starts. It'd make setting up a solid defence before flipping the trigger far more difficult. Especially when Wraiths start appearing.

Heh, I can imagine the terror when a new player sets up a line and then the doors open without input. Have the aliens placed far enough away that you won't get slaughtered that first turn of assault, but it poses a quandry: Stay with your line and hope you can hold, or break and find what cover you can with the associate fragmenting of your ability to concentrate fire.

Maybe secretly have different types of mission that the player is unaware of, we're told on the start screen we can take and hold the ufo for a given number of turns (to try to negate 'last alien' tedium) but rather than mention the exact number of turns just say it's an option. For regular missions, keep it at five, but then have these Trojan Horse missions that instead have no timeout, but every alien will be coming for you, no holdouts. With the doors locked open.

The trick to tactical command is trying to be aware of whatever might happen on the battlefield and preparing as much as possible. So the player would have to try and keep in mind what type of mission it might turn out to be as well as what might be hiding in that dark corner. I'd like a little more variety in the tactical considerations. And they can certainly be used as difficulty vectors without it being cheap.

The abduction missions currently under consideration are another example of this. Plus it's amusing to put the player in the situation of having to defend the damn UFO from assault for a change, that's not something that's been done before.

Edit: When to start that 'defend' timer would be an important consideration. Too early and you get jumped with no opportunity to realise you've been suckered, too late and you become aware that it's a trap and can take your time preparing. Perhaps having it start upon reaching the control room (typically the last room reached) is a little long, as you'd have searched the rest of the ship by then and realised it's empty. My planning of these also is aimed towards the later UFOs, with the larger layout and crew to really work. By this point it'd be a change from the routine as well, which would work nicely.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Elydo

[Osvir]

Great elaboration I'd love to see that in the game. Making it a random thing would definitely up the variety as well, one mission you get the standard 2 or 3 aliens in the ship, on another one you find yourself defending the UFO. Another variety could have the Aliens destroy the UFO deliberately as to protect their knowledge (Russian Warfare, in a sense). Not to mention Kamikaze tactics (they blow themselves up). Speaking of that: Can Aliens pick up C4 or other timed "bombs" and throw it back at you? (A grenade which lands on the same tile as the Alien for instance, maybe they can do a... sort of... "dice roll" and throw it back to you if successful).

The Trojan Horse made me think of, probably a complex thing (not suggesting it, but just throwing out an idea), Alien Capture but reverse. A.k.a. the Aliens trying to capture your Soldiers. If they succeed, you'd lose a Soldier but could face them on a mission later (Stunning them and re-capturing them could revert the effects and you get the Soldier back).

Another thing that comes to mind in light of that, saving some random Local Forces could perhaps grant you an extra recruit. The difficulty would be in finding them in time and protecting them before they get shot. Maybe during Terror Site missions.

And speaking of Terror Sites, during my play, I think it was a tad bit harsh to kill like... ALL civilians and ALL local forces in like 2 or 3 turns was a tad bit over-the-top. Even if it was on Insane Difficulty. Maybe I had a chance to save 1 or 2 if I had taken some bigger risks, but 12 Androns and 5 Floating Discs (What's the name of them? Can't find them on the Xenonauts wiki) made me shake my boots. Don't know the best method to nerf something like this but it's something I'd like to see getting slightly nerfed.

Maybe have more civilians spawn inside houses/behind cover and have Aliens spawn out in the open could be a solution?

[Elydo]

Terror missions are currently being reworked to make the field a bit more linear; xenonauts, civs and allies will start on one side and the aliens will come across form the other, with different behaviours depending on aggressiveness on the alien side.

Aliens will eventually get grenades of their own (Which will be typically powerful), though if we can pick theirs up and toss them back it might be fun to give them the same ability. Adds tactics to when you set them to go off, should we get timers put in. It'd have to be reaction-based, but even then there's the choice between end of turn (allowing for hot potato) or on impact (meaning if you misthrow into the wall besides you, Mr. Grenade is not your friend)

Occasionally having the aliens try to stun your soldiers wouldn't really change the tactical environment much, unless they get ranged stun weapons. In which case why can't we research them (as ranged stuns would likely be unbalancing). But the idea of Androns, who are already implacable and will crash through walls to charge you occasionally, just walking up and tazing guys is actually quite evocative. And in fact, should you manage to win the field, you'd presumably get those guys back (assuming they weren't killed by stray fire). It would actually be less punishing. But should you lose... Universal morale hit for all soldiers? As they have to fear being targeted for a fate worse than death now. Again, switching things up through altered tactical considerations without changing the core of the game. I like it.

I think suicide aliens would be out of character as well as annoyingly difficult. There are already enemies that explode on death in the game, and otherwise having enemies charge you to self-detonate can be fucking terrifying (those damn poppers from Apoc. Dear God) but Reapers already run at you to one-hit kill you, and in the process make more of themselves. 'Splodydopes would actually be less combat efficient.

Aliens sabotaging their own craft would make the risk and effort of going through a ground mission only to subsequently find out that you got nothing from the craft really irritating. UFOs are the primary, if not only most of the time, source of alenium and alloys. Downing and securing the craft is already a bottleneck on those resources, with the options of risking the plunder if you want to use the Sathra Doctrine during the interior assault itself. Just having you screwed with no recourse is false difficulty.

[Osvir]

Terror missions are currently being reworked to make the field a bit more linear; xenonauts, civs and allies will start on one side and the aliens will come across form the other, with different behaviours depending on aggressiveness on the alien side.

Hm, will that be an additional variety or will every Terror Mission play out like that? Because even though the "I am surrounded from all angles by a vastly more powerful force and all civilians and local forces are getting destroyed" was scary and very difficult, it was pretty epic to break out of and turn around into my favor. Got some pretty cool stories out of it.

Some bullet-point thoughts/ideas/brainstorm on different randomized Terror Site variations:

Start off with Aliens spawning...

(Surrounded Variation)

... surrounding your position . Allies are either:

A) Scattered on the map outdoors

B) Scattered indoors in several buildings (Unsure about this one in this variation as it could warrant a lot of free points)

C) No allies

(Search & Destroy Xenonauts Variation)

... being scattered or spawning grouped on the map and homing in on your location. Allies are either:

A) Scattered on the map outdoors

B) Scattered indoors

C) Grouped on one location indoors or outdoors (3-4 Local Forces bunkering down a building and maybe some Civilians hiding behind them)

C) No allies

(Search & Destroy Allies Variation)

... scattered or spawning grouped on the map outdoors . Allies are either:

A) Scattered on the map outdoors

B) Scattered in several buildings indoors

C) Grouped on one location on the map indoors or outdoors (3-4 Local Forces bunkering down a building and maybe some Civilians hiding behind them)

(Alien Indoors Variation)

... in-doors scattered or bunkering down a single building . Allies are either:

A) Scattered on the map outdoors

B) Scattered on the map indoors

(Alien Patrol Variation)

... scattered on the map and patrolling outdoors and civilians staying indoors.

(Side-vs-Side variation).

... grouped on one side, and allies and you being on one side as the rework suggests.

That's quite a lot of variations.

EDIT: Another one that would warrant its own would be to have the Aliens having "captured" Allies and use them as "Hostages" and the closer you get the more Allies they kill or "mind-control" or whatnot. Or, though that would require an all new alien version, have a "Starship Trooper" Brain Sucker Alien take down a civilian every 3rd turn or something.

2nd EDIT: Not to forget the mention of the Player spawning in various locations on the map, such as in the middle of it.

3rd EDIT: Also as a response to the "UFO Trap" and more to the "Trojan Horse". Another variation to regular missions: Maybe you enter the Alien Spaceship in an attempt to win by capturing the Spaceship, and no Aliens inside gives you a "free capture woo!" incentive, but as you enter it the Alien Door locks and stun grenades go off (some sort of trap), trapping the Soldiers inside the ship and following up with an ambush.

4th EDIT: I also want to say that the Ironman thoughts I earlier spoke about (<- Link) was intended for the release of the game, in essence, not for the Early Access period.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Osvir

[kenmtraveller]

Hey,

I just wanted to pop in and give a quick impression; I've restarted twice now on normal mode and the game feels too difficult to me.

I find myself resorting to saving before every room in alien base missions, for example.

I think part of the problem for me is I don't seem to have enough money to recover from losing a fight or even taking significant casualties.

I'm wondering if I am doing something wrong. I am starting with two bases, all my base development is in the first one but the second one ramps up and gets stocked with 3 condors. Is trying to get a second base up immediately a bad idea?

Also, I am probably using explosives too much, impacting the money I get from crash sites. I use two rocket launchers in a squad of 8. Is this too many?

It would be nice to know how other people's games progress. I get to a point where I am no longer able to shoot down the big UFOs (carriers, battleships, escorted cruisers) with the forces I have, and to where I get multiple alien bases popping up simultaenously that my wounded soldiers can't respond to quickly. At this point I have plasma and laser rifles and wolf armor, with mostly condors and one corsair and one marauder. I've just gotten the shrike dropship and the scimitar tank. I have 30 scientists and 25 engineers and 15 soldiers (of which 5 are corporal/private)...is this enough?

[Gorlom]

kenmtraveller: Have you played any previous X-com? I'm wondering because I want to know your experience with this type of game. It sounds like you got ideas on how to refine and improve your gameplay so the game probably isn't too hard. You just need to get a feel for the game.

There are lots of lets play videos out there that can help you out with seeing how other peoples games are progressing. Try searching youtube for Xenonauts.