StellarRat Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 (edited) I figured we should probably have a dedicated AI thread to make suggestions and gripes about the AI for Chris and Gijs-Jan to look at. On the whole I consider the AI to be FAR superior to the original game, but there is always room for improvement. So, I'll start with some suggestions. 1. Aliens need to use buildings for cover/ambush more often. Buildings are excellent defensive positions. 2. Aliens need to defend from inside the ship more (known issue.) This one seems particularly important to me. 3. How come the aliens NEVER use the second floor of a building? 4. Aliens seem to have eyes in the back of their heads (known issue.) They'll turn around and shoot you even if you're completely behind them. Edited June 3, 2013 by StellarRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerc Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Aliens don't seem to react to xenonauts that move in and out of their vision range. I played peekaboo with an alien several times by simply moving up to spot, move back out side their vision range, fire. rinse and repeat. It's a bit broken. The aliens should either retreat back or move the step forward to retaliate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathra Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Depends on race. Sebillians are nearly blind compared to, well, all the other aliens so its easy to outsee them. You can peek, shoot and fall back until it dies with no reaction fire risk. I've never seen aliens respond to me sneaking up behind them. Even if I end the turn 6 tiles away (in which case they usually stand up, look left and right, then crouch again. Or turn around and just stare at the trooper). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solver Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Aliens are absolutely oblivious to the vertical dimension. They do not go up and down anything, and also I notice that aliens won't go down in the UFO. Cruisers have this bridge-like area on the 2nd floor, usually 2 aliens there. Those aliens never go down and for me they don't even seem to move. At least Sebillians don't. They will fire at my troops if they have the chance, but they don't leave the area or even move within it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 The way the game handles stairs seems to confuse them at the moment. I don't think it handles transitions between camera levels very well at all in fact. There have been a few bug reports about being unable to fire accurately on ground floor targets from first floor windows for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waladil Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 By the by, the aliens really don't have "eyes in the back of their heads." However, I've noticed that an alien without any visible targets will start every turn by turning a 360. Which, honestly, is pretty smart. It's a lot easier to notice with Sebilians who you can see further than and in close quarters where you can get all your soldiers to hidden positions before you end your turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted June 3, 2013 Author Share Posted June 3, 2013 By the by, the aliens really don't have "eyes in the back of their heads."However, I've noticed that an alien without any visible targets will start every turn by turning a 360. Which, honestly, is pretty smart. It's a lot easier to notice with Sebilians who you can see further than and in close quarters where you can get all your soldiers to hidden positions before you end your turn. So, could just be a coincidence that they turn and shoot you, I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svidangel Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 Yeah, they are clearly still doing those 360 sweeps during the players turn at the moment, though. No eyes in the back of the head here, no sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waladil Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 Do you mean reaction fire from behind? That I've never seen and totally would be a bug. I have seen them do reaction fire anywhere in a 180 degree frontal arc, which does seem a lot wider than it ought to be. It's not clear whether you meant in your original post reaction fire or turning around on their turn which is completely intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted June 3, 2013 Author Share Posted June 3, 2013 I was talking about this bug report: http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/5250-V18-51-HF3-Combat-AI-Alien-FoV-question?p=64290&viewfull=1#post64290 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gijs-Jan Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 First off, thanks for the discussion. You guys already found quite some obscure bugs for me to squash. The 180 degree reaction fire is a confirmed bug now; and it'll probably be gone soon. The 360 degree turn on the spot is legacy behaviour; it's purely cosmetic/burning APs. I thought that you guys rather see more complex maneuvers than realistic pirouetting behaviour; so aliens that move / are in their turn observe in a 360 degree circle. If you consider this to be cheating; I can obviously just manually make them pirouette, but in my opinion it just looked silly to see each AI agent turn on the spot before starting to walk I'll also take a look at the ignoring of floors, which might be a bit harder to solve; because there are no real constraints from the AI perspective; so I suspect its something in the groundcombat code that's holding them back. Goals this summer: - Far more realistic search behaviour. - More diverse behaviour per race (and more correct usage of abilities) - Better defensive behaviour around UFO's. - Better coordination, in team and overall. (expect backup etc) - Overall better tactical engagement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted June 3, 2013 Author Share Posted June 3, 2013 (edited) Goals this summer:- Far more realistic search behaviour. - More diverse behaviour per race (and more correct usage of abilities) - Better defensive behaviour around UFO's. - Better coordination, in team and overall. (expect backup etc) - Overall better tactical engagement. This sounds very promising. I've noticed that the aliens don't employ much team work as far as "covering each other" with interlocking LOF. Of course, that's going to make the AI MUCH tougher. You'll have to make sure they don't "bunch up" in one place at the same time. Sounds interesting from a programming perspective. As long as it's not cheating I'm OK with that. If it's too tough, we can always turn down the difficulty level. Edited June 3, 2013 by StellarRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solver Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 Hey Gijs-Jan, could the AI have problems with path finding caused by temporarily blocked paths? I mean when it considers a possible location to go to, and during evaluation sees the path to it as blocked because it happens to temporarily be by a soldier or NPC, so that location is not chosen as a possible destination. I have encountered that problem a few times, in some games causing back and forth running as the paths are reevaluated each turn, and in some other games just ignoring valid paths because they do not get reevaluated again for several turns. Just wondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted June 3, 2013 Author Share Posted June 3, 2013 (edited) Hey Gijs-Jan, could the AI have problems with path finding caused by temporarily blocked paths? I mean when it considers a possible location to go to, and during evaluation sees the path to it as blocked because it happens to temporarily be by a soldier or NPC, so that location is not chosen as a possible destination. I have encountered that problem a few times, in some games causing back and forth running as the paths are reevaluated each turn, and in some other games just ignoring valid paths because they do not get reevaluated again for several turns. Just wondering.I've noticed that the AI will retreat from a position when it seems to think it's "outgunned" then reoccupy the same spot the next turn. I think what's happening is it loses sight of the enemy when it retreats and it "forgets" about them. So, the next turn it thinks the the exact spot it left looks pretty good again and goes back to it.It probably should forget about that location for several turns and attempt to outflank the enemy or find a position further back (I think it does that when there is some cover.) On the whole, the AI doesn't do much maneuvering and that makes it more predictable. Another alternative would be for the alien to hold the position and "call for reinforcements". Personally, I like that alternative the best. As it means the first alien to spot your troops will bring a bunch more in for help. This is the way "real" battles often develop. As long as they use cover and/or range to move to contact AND guard their flanks it will make things very interesting for the Xenonauts. I've also noticed the AI can be "herded" into a map corner and at that point it's pretty hopeless. In my opinion all retreat should be done towards their ship or the best cover. If they are running out of room they might as well hold fast in the last piece of cover available and die fighting. I've also seen aliens just standing out completely in the open at the beginning of ground combat. As far as I'm concerned that should NEVER happen. If they want to shoot civilians or ambush your troops getting off the Chinook they ought to do it from cover, always. Edited June 3, 2013 by StellarRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathra Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 I thought the aliens already did call for help. Multiple times I've been in a exchange with an alien for a couple turns that quickly becomes a firefight as both me and the AI throw more troops into the combat. As far as I can tell some aliens (aggressives?) tend to run towards combat. Other than that, I agree with what StellarRat says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted June 3, 2013 Author Share Posted June 3, 2013 (edited) I thought the aliens already did call for help. Multiple times I've been in a exchange with an alien for a couple turns that quickly becomes a firefight as both me and the AI throw more troops into the combat.As far as I can tell some aliens (aggressives?) tend to run towards combat. That's interesting because I've never felt that aliens were getting reinforced at a specific location. When I look at a battle I pretty much plan to take out one alien at a time because they are so spread out. Maybe it does move help up, but it must do it very slowly, so slowly I can't tell. To me it always seems like a collection of one against many battles that give the Xenonauts a huge advantage in local strength. Maybe they are moving to help on too broad a frontage. I'd expect to be fighting for a building and have aliens pouring in the back door where I can't see or hit them and maybe some more trying to outflank my main force. I think the aliens ought try to dominate about 1/4 of a map while manuevering with some guys on the remainder. They certainly need to work on becoming more concentrated after the battle starts. The only truly aggressive aliens I've seen are Reapers. Androns will always try to move into firing range, but still don't use any maneuvering or massing tactics. Edited June 4, 2013 by StellarRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svidangel Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Yeah, I've never noticed much in the way of reinforcing. It would be interesting to hear from the AI man himself as to whether any such programming is in place since this sort of thing could be highly perception based. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GooberCat Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I have also noticed that as long as your soldiers are hiding behind doors... the aliens never open them to shoot at you. I cleared a command room in a alien base by just opening the door... shooting... ending turn... repeat. The aliens just sat there waiting to reaction fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemm Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 The aliens seem to be a lot more docile after hotfix 3. I'm not receiving nearly as much reaction fire by creeping into their LOS. In general, the "sentient" aliens (not the terror units) seem to run backwards into cover whenever you confront them. This is pretty good, but it gets a little boring after a while if the player is always the one initiating the engagement. Here is a couple of general behavioural suggestions based on general tactics from UFO2000. 1) Have a "scouting" behaviour. The primary goal of a scout is to move forward, in partial or total disregard for his own safety, so that other aliens (snipers) can get vision of the Xenonauts. Snipers should be prepared to find firing lanes to shoot at anything the scout sees. 2) Create a flanking behaviour. So far, I haven't seen any aliens attempt to flank me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted June 4, 2013 Author Share Posted June 4, 2013 The aliens seem to be a lot more docile after hotfix 3. I'm not receiving nearly as much reaction fire by creeping into their LOS.In general, the "sentient" aliens (not the terror units) seem to run backwards into cover whenever you confront them. This is pretty good, but it gets a little boring after a while if the player is always the one initiating the engagement. Here is a couple of general behavioural suggestions based on general tactics from UFO2000. 1) Have a "scouting" behaviour. The primary goal of a scout is to move forward, in partial or total disregard for his own safety, so that other aliens (snipers) can get vision of the Xenonauts. Snipers should be prepared to find firing lanes to shoot at anything the scout sees. 2) Create a flanking behaviour. So far, I haven't seen any aliens attempt to flank me. I believe they are more docile because they don't have a massive cheat on vision range and TUs anymore. I swear that my first terror mission before the fix was like landing on Tawara. There was plasma coming in from everywhere. I lost three guys one turn off the ramp. Thank god that is fixed. LOL.So, #1 Yes, but I don't see any reason they can't scout carefully. They can hop forward from cover to cover just like I would and still spot stuff. Remember that temporary squad sight will be removed according to Chris, so it will be important for your scout to stay alive or he won't be able to direct fire. #2 Obviously, I agree completely with this. The AI should always be attempting to get behind your troops if possible. Failing that, they ought to try to get them in a cross fire from one of the flanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted June 4, 2013 Author Share Posted June 4, 2013 (edited) I had one other thought. At some point the aliens should begin to think they are losing (assuming your beating them of course.) Maybe when they determine the ratio is three to one, Xenonaut to alien. At that point they ought to begin falling back to defend the ship and force the Xenonauts into a breaching attack where they can extract the most casualties. Edited June 4, 2013 by StellarRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asdf64 Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Hey, really glad with the AI so far Gijs, can't wait to see how it turns out further down the line. You say more diverse behavior, I can't wait to see what you do for the Androns. The fact they can crush small walls/props in their way by walking is terrifying, and I really want to see it more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted June 4, 2013 Author Share Posted June 4, 2013 Hey, really glad with the AI so far Gijs, can't wait to see how it turns out further down the line.You say more diverse behavior, I can't wait to see what you do for the Androns. The fact they can crush small walls/props in their way by walking is terrifying, and I really want to see it more. "I'll be bahack"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted June 4, 2013 Author Share Posted June 4, 2013 Hopefully, the Androns will never retreat or take cover. They should just keep advancing on your troops and shooting. No, fancy tactics for them. I think they need to be a bit tougher too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Pancakes Posted June 5, 2013 Share Posted June 5, 2013 Hopefully, the Androns will never retreat or take cover. They should just keep advancing on your troops and shooting. No, fancy tactics for them. I think they need to be a bit tougher too. So...like that time I once accidentally took a rookie team out against Mutons with rifles because I was strapped for cash... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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