Suggestion - Shorten grenade range to something a little more believable.

[StellarRat]

StellarRat, it's not a bug. It's just there are no special cases when it comes to calculating suppression. Having spent some time testing this, the most effective thing that can be done is to increase the operational range of the flashbang from 10 to higher.

It is a bug IMO. When something totally doesn't make sense I call that a bug. LOL. The only thing that should affect damage or suppression for explosive weapons is how far away from the detonation point the target is and if there is any intervening cover (like a wall.)

[Gauddlike]

The whole suppression system makes little sense to me but it is working as intended therefore isn't a bug.

Have you filed a bug report on this? Both points sound wrong. The flash bang should be very effective in causing suppression better than the LMG even.

The problem is that suppression works the same with all weapons.

When you select the point to throw the grenade at you are also selecting the point that will be suppressed.

If your flashbang doesn't land in that area it doesn't matter, that selected area will still be suppressed.

Furthermore if the flashbang lands at the feet of a different enemy, outside of the initial target area, they will suffer no suppression as the detonation has no relation to the suppression.

Anything outside of the effective range of the weapon also suffers no suppression but if you increase the weapon range so you can suppress out to a greater distance you are also decreasing the accuracy fall off at long range.

All of the weapons have the same problem (well to me it's a problem) it is just more noticeable with things like grenades and rockets.

[StellarRat]

The whole suppression system makes little sense to me but it is working as intended therefore isn't a bug.

The problem is that suppression works the same with all weapons.

When you select the point to throw the grenade at you are also selecting the point that will be suppressed.

If your flashbang doesn't land in that area it doesn't matter, that selected area will still be suppressed.

Furthermore if the flashbang lands at the feet of a different enemy, outside of the initial target area, they will suffer no suppression as the detonation has no relation to the suppression.

Anything outside of the effective range of the weapon also suffers no suppression but if you increase the weapon range so you can suppress out to a greater distance you are also decreasing the accuracy fall off at long range.

All of the weapons have the same problem (well to me it's a problem) it is just more noticeable with things like grenades and rockets.

Well, it doesn't crash, so it's not a runtime bug. It's a design error that causes incorrect results. We call that a bug too where I work. But, that's not important. It's definitely a problem and wrong. How's that?

But let me just confirm what you're saying: Are you telling me that if I throw a flashbang at alien "A" and it soars 10 tiles past his body and lands in alien "B's" martini, alien "A" will still suffer a suppression check while alien "B" (wiping gin and olives from his face) will be unaffected??? If so, that is definitely a bug in my book.

Edited March 26, 2013 by StellarRat

[Gauddlike]

It is only a design error if it doesn't work in the way it was intended to work, which it does.

Chris is aware of the downsides but felt this was the best system that could be implemented.

Unless a change has been made that I missed (quite possible) then what you describe is the actual function in that situation yes.

I cannot see any differences in the xml that would point to a different system.

It is the same way all weapons work.

If you fire your machine gun at an enemy 15 tiles away but all your shots hit the cover of an enemy 4 tiles in front of you then the 15 tile enemy gets suppressed while the closer one ignores the shots completely.

As I said earlier it is just more noticeable with some weapons (mainly single shot) than others as generally at least one shot from a burst goes near the target.

I pointed out that I felt this was incorrect but others felt it was normal behaviour so the system stayed.

I think this is drifting off the grenade range topic though.

[StellarRat]

I pointed out that I felt this was incorrect but others felt it was normal behaviour so the system stayed.

We're only talking about suppression here, right? It's wrong, but I might be able to live with it. Damage is calculated for everyone near the blast point, right? Please tell me that is so. It seems to be that way. If it's not than it's totally messed up.

[Gauddlike]

Damage is related to where the projectile lands, suppression to where the initial shot is aimed.

I think the only place most people would notice is where they are relying on the suppression effect, for example throwing a flashbang into a ufo through the door to suppress enemies inside.

If you miss completely the enemies inside are still suppressed.

If it lands at your breachers feet outside they will take some stun damage but not be suppressed.

It works in the players favour so most would probably not even notice it.

If the same shot was attempted with a frag then the enemy inside would be unaffected (apart from some suppression damage) but your breacher would have a bad day.

It is the dissociation between suppression and the other effects of the weapon that I dislike.

[StellarRat]

It is the dissociation between suppression and the other effects of the weapon that I dislike.

I concur. This doesn't seem like it would be hard to fix either which kind of stumps me. They already have code that determines damage from a blast point I don't see why they could just modify that a little to do suppression as well. For direct fire weapons I don't see this as being too big a deal because once the miss arc is resolved it will "appear" to be right even if it's not totally correct.

[Chris]

A tile is 1.6m by 1.6m on each edge. We'll have a look at grenades and how they work in beta, I'm aware they're a bit dodgy at the moment.

[StellarRat]

A tile is 1.6m by 1.6m on each edge. We'll have a look at grenades and how they work in beta, I'm aware they're a bit dodgy at the moment.

Thanks Chris!

[Gauddlike]

Full of useful information and also with a dollop of good news thrown in

[StellarRat]

Full of useful information and also with a dollop of good news thrown in

Going by 1.6 meter per tile the average maximum distance a human could throw a grenade is 14 to 19 tiles (25 to 35 yards) in game. At least that's what my research has revealed. Of course, that doesn't count any balancing factors or range compression (ranges for weapons are WAY compressed in Xenonauts, just like sighting.) And, I'm sure the maximum range would be greatly reduced by less than optimum throwing conditions like throwing over buildings, or throwing from a crouched position, etc... I still think my idea to make the max = strength / 10 works out pretty well. All things considered. I could see a flashbang going twice that on a good day.

[svidangel]

Maybe we should bring back throwing skill!

Would a ML Baseball player throw a grenade farther, or an 80 strength body builder?

Are Accuracy and Strength the two stats that determine grenade throws? If so can you improve Accuracy by throwing grenades?

[TrashMan]

Too short and it looks daft... weapon "ranges" may have been nerfed, but the bullets can still go from one end of a map to another.

It's kinda silly that a soldier can't even throw a granade over a street! It makes no sense in relation to everything else.

[StellarRat]

Too short and it looks daft... weapon "ranges" may have been nerfed, but the bullets can still go from one end of a map to another.

It's kinda silly that a soldier can't even throw a granade over a street! It makes no sense in relation to everything else.

10 tiles is enough to throw across a street, I measured.

[GizmoGomez]

It depends on the street. Personally, I haven't seen any issues with grenade range. People can really throw them, with the proper training (and you'd expect soldiers to have that training.)

[StellarRat]

It depends on the street. Personally, I haven't seen any issues with grenade range. People can really throw them, with the proper training (and you'd expect soldiers to have that training.)

Actually, having "measured off" 10 tiles I would recommed strength / 4 as the max. range in tiles.

[GizmoGomez]

What's the average starting strength again? around 55-60?

If so, then that's not too bad, I suppose, 13-15 tiles starting.

How far can/does strength increase as the game goes on? That would make a big difference.

[StellarRat]

What's the average starting strength again? around 55-60?

If so, then that's not too bad, I suppose, 13-15 tiles starting.

How far can/does strength increase as the game goes on? That would make a big difference.

I think max strength is 100, so your Conan could hurl one 25 tiles.

[GizmoGomez]

Okay, that's 40 meters. That's actually less than realistic, if you think about it. 40 meters is about the average throwing distance for grenades (or so says the little research I've done on the subject.) Since the game's cutting short basically every range for every weapon (due to the smaller map sizes, relative to the real world that is), it's probably wouldn't be a big deal.

[StellarRat]

Okay, that's 40 meters. That's actually less than realistic, if you think about it. 40 meters is about the average throwing distance for grenades (or so says the little research I've done on the subject.) Since the game's cutting short basically every range for every weapon (due to the smaller map sizes, relative to the real world that is), it's probably wouldn't be a big deal.

My research said 25 - 35 meters. I thought I was being generous.

[crusherven]

Apparently the US Army claims 40 meters is average. I don't really trust their numbers much, since, for example, they also claim the M16 has an effective range of 550 meters point target. It's certainly possible to engage targets at that range with iron sights--the Marine Corps shoots at 500 meters for qual--but that's when you have a known distance, a good zero, and time to adjust your sights. The front sight post can completely cover a person at that range. There's also been a lot of discussion on whether the 5.56 round is viable at those ranges.

Sometimes the official numbers are generous. I haven't thrown many grenades, though--40 might be a good number.

[StellarRat]

Apparently the US Army claims 40 meters is average. I don't really trust their numbers much, since, for example, they also claim the M16 has an effective range of 550 meters point target. It's certainly possible to engage targets at that range with iron sights--the Marine Corps shoots at 500 meters for qual--but that's when you have a known distance, a good zero, and time to adjust your sights. The front sight post can completely cover a person at that range. There's also been a lot of discussion on whether the 5.56 round is viable at those ranges.

Sometimes the official numbers are generous. I haven't thrown many grenades, though--40 might be a good number.

550 is ridiculous under combat conditions as you've noted. Everything I've ever read says under 300 is the "real" effective range for light weapons. At 550 my guess is you would have a hard even seeing a "real" target much less hitting it. As far as grenades go, 25 - 35 meters is probably a bit optimistic because we're assuming an optimum throwing stance, not trying to toss over a high object, no space restrictions, etc... Most of the accounts I've read they use them at MUCH closer ranges where a "hit" is guaranteed and generally don't get to throw them like they do in training. Like tossing one under-handed into a room next door and ducking back behind cover. Edited April 2, 2013 by StellarRat

[GizmoGomez]

Well, hurling a grenade and hitting a target are two different things, so just because in combat conditions the M16 has a shorter effective range doesn't necessarily mean that a grenade throw will be somehow shorter in those same conditions. It may, but I don't think it'd have as big a difference. What I was reading was saying that under combat conditions the average is 40 meters, and that people can even thrown them up to 75 meters on a good day (but that's the incredible hulks of the military there). Perhaps the soldiers could use 1/2*str for the calculation? That'd be 25 meters (under average by almost half) at the start (ish), and 50 meters (just over the average by 1/4) at max strength (which honestly most soldiers will never reach, due to a sudden introduction of plasma to their chest). Perhaps we could even do 1/2*str-X, where X is some constant (say, 5). That'd make (at 55 str) 22.5 (rounded down obviously to 22) tiles. Then, we just play around with X, instead of altering the 1/2 to some other fraction. It'd make it simpler.

[StellarRat]

Well, hurling a grenade and hitting a target are two different things, so just because in combat conditions the M16 has a shorter effective range doesn't necessarily mean that a grenade throw will be somehow shorter in those same conditions. It may, but I don't think it'd have as big a difference. What I was reading was saying that under combat conditions the average is 40 meters, and that people can even thrown them up to 75 meters on a good day (but that's the incredible hulks of the military there). Perhaps the soldiers could use 1/2*str for the calculation? That'd be 25 meters (under average by almost half) at the start (ish), and 50 meters (just over the average by 1/4) at max strength (which honestly most soldiers will never reach, due to a sudden introduction of plasma to their chest). Perhaps we could even do 1/2*str-X, where X is some constant (say, 5). That'd make (at 55 str) 22.5 (rounded down obviously to 22) tiles. Then, we just play around with X, instead of altering the 1/2 to some other fraction. It'd make it simpler.

Your math is a little off. According to Chris each tile is 1.6 meters, so 25 x 1.6 = 40 meters for someone with 50 strength, while a someone with 100 strength (max) could toss one an astounding 80 meters! That seems a bit long to me.

[GizmoGomez]

I didn't actually do the math, I just estimated. I also forgot that each tile wasn't a meter, it was 1.6. I suppose I reverted back to my days playing the Star Wars RPG, where each square is one meter long. Oh well. Anyway, that's why I added the X factor (haha) in there, to factor in the possibility that the 1/2*str was too long of a range. (Although, considering there are people who can throw grenades 75 yards, why not 80 for the strongest of the best humanity has to offer? Gameplay comes first, of course, but realism would support that, I think.)