Battle Maps without black points

[Mimas]

Hi,i watched this game on youtube and this game have become interesting for me.

But it is possible to have BattleMaps without black points but without NPC and UFO aircraft ?

Just like in Fallout Tactic for example, where you can see terrain,buildings but no NPC.It looks like really odd with black points.

With this i will not be able to see where UFO is so but i will se terrain like in real life.

It will be nice to see only terrain and big buildings (Soldiers have maps ets.) But no vehicles ets.

[erutan]

The problem would be you'd pretty much be able to guess where the UFO is by the big blank space where it'd be.

I think the actual transition might work out better for the black, but that type of fog of war is going to stay.

[Chris]

The black covering the map is unrealistic but it's good for tension - you never know what was around the corner. If you take it away, the game is a lot less tense (so it was an intentional choice)!

[Orangehat44]

Hey guys I have been following the game for a while and just preordered this week. Love it so far, though I'm no original xcom vet (I was 5 when it came out) but I was an old fallout 1-2 +tactics vet and love squad tactic turnbased games. I've played the new Xcom and UFO:AI while following this game. I agree with your tension comment Chris, but what about pseudo fog like in UFO:AI where you can see the square of the map and the terrain on it but only see dynamic things when they are in your units field of view( ie aliens and civies) I know its 1979 but I would imagine by the time a team deployed via chinook there would be some aerial imaging available. But at a very least any drop ship will fly over and spot the LZ for saftey before landing so your troops would have seen it from the sky and know there is a barn and a house over there, and frankly they would see the crash site and have a general sense of direction of where to go after disembarking from the transport.

Just my 2 cents

[Gorlom]

There is black or dense Fog of war (blocking out everything, enviroment and movable characters) and grey Fog of war (hides the units but not the enviroment). The grey shows previously explored areas that are not currently in the line of sight of the soldiers. Pretty much what you are asking about.

While it may sound counterintuitive lorewise that they don't know the layout of the land it makes more sense gameplay wise and is in the long run more fun. There are some differences in how the game plays compared to say fallout games or JA.

[erutan]

The two tier fog of war is something that the Wasteland remake is using as well, so it's not just an RTS thing.

In reality the chinook would get a good overview of the crash site (including the UFO). I really don't see fog of war ever changing for this game (aside from perhaps the aesthetics of the border or whatever).

[Orangehat44]

I know the game has both types, I was just suggesting for the whole board to have the grey fog of war from the get go, i disagree that it makes more sense gameplay wise and more fun in the long run as the black can be very immersion breaking and forces me to play more conservatively than i would like. when you have the map with a grey style fog of war you can say 'oh hey this building has great LOS, would be nice to get my longrange/heavies in that to cover the shot gunner/assults advancements. It gives you more fluid planning aswell.

With black fog you are forced to cover hop from spot to spot till you find something, and if you do find a building and move all your support into it start to move your CQB guys only to find that building you moved your snipers into has another building blocking it from supporting your guys.

At the end of the day I'm trying to say 'grey' fog allows you to develop more strategic plans and use your team more tactically. In this sense its feasible to split your team multiple ways and execute plans that require them to cover each other. 'Black' fog pushes the player to play conservatively, cluster their team together, and play in a constant state of reaction. Im not trying to make this game clone any feature from another game, just the black fog i feel breaks immersion to much and really limits the strategies you can implement in a strategic game.

[Max_Caine]

erutan, regarding your comment about flybys. I wrote a post a long while ago about the difference between field of vision in the air and field of vision when on the ground, here. I honestly don't think (as I discuss in the post), that a flyby before landing would "realistically" make up for the disconnect between what you see in the air and what you see on the ground. A hour map study of the local area prior to launch would better serve than a flyby when they get there!

[Gorlom]

@Orangehat44: You don't seem to consider that a clear marked out objective, that looks the same again and again, makes the maps smaller and a lot more boring. These maps aren't handcrafted. They are stitched together using randomly shaped (but handcrafted) jigsaw pieces. The black fog increases the longlivety and replayability of each map.

That the black fog forces you to play conservativly is a huge part in the immension building for some people. It increases the suspense, which is a large part of this game.

[Orangehat44]

you dont seem to consider that a grey fog of war does NOT give you a clear marked out objective. Your objective is generally to eliminate the opfor on the map not get your doods to the space ship, and any way you want to theory craft it your guys should know where that is, it was shot down by your own plane and is now burning on the ground if not anything at all you should know its general location by a smoke plume. After that part your statements stopped making sense to me:

Regardless of black or grey you will learn the maps and remember them, and their 'longevity and replayability' is not, protected by using black fog, the random stitching of tiles and terrain you mentioned is what gives maps longevity. Also strategic gameplay is what gives the game longevity, I'm not playing the game to slowly uncover map tiles.

"That the black fog forces you to play conservativly is a huge part in the immension building for some people. It increases the suspense, which is a large part of this game. "

This statement is so bassackwards. Suspense is just as equally created with grey or black fog and arguably is more created with grey. The ultimate consequences of permadeath and equipment loss are what create attachemnt to your troops, attachment to your troops mixed with the black fog is what drives conservative play where you move a few spaces in a big cluster with everyone on reaction. Immersion is built by the attachment to units and will for their survival, conservative play is the outcome because it is the most viable way to play to hopefully not lose people. The game pushing you to play this conservatively is not a strategic simulation, its herding cats until you see something to shoot, and its boring.

Grey fog leads to planning and stratgic thinking. Planning out a few turns, taking chances you never would take with black fog:

Grey fog: "Hey there is a building on the other side of that field if I can get a fire team there quick I can bring the rest around" and you spring those guys out there, maybe the aliens have an ambush and cross fire. but at the end of the day its more fast paced and fun game play.

Black fog: "theres a field here but Im going to slowly plod across it because I dont know if there is a house on the other side.

This is a new game in a new era, slowly uncovering every square might have been fun in the 90's but it aint now.

[Gorlom]

you dont seem to consider that a grey fog of war does NOT give you a clear marked out objective. Your objective is generally to eliminate the opfor on the map not get your doods to the space ship,

The underlined part is completley false. One of the victory conditions is to hold the enemy ship for 5 turns.

The rest of the post seems to be opinions (that I respect but firmly disagree with) stated as facts.

Grey fog leads to planning and stratgic thinking. Planning out a few turns, taking chances you never would take with black fog:

Isn't this proof that there is less suspense with black fog?

It's interesting to see how you divide playstyles based on the fogs and assume everyone else does the same thing the same way.

Edited February 13, 2013 by Gorlom

[Orangehat44]

Your objective is generally to eliminate the opfor on the map not get your doods to the space ship,

One of the victory conditions is to hold the enemy ship for 5 turns.

Do you play king of the hill with a blind fold on? No, you GENERALLY know where the hill is.

You keep trying to defend an old strategy breaking mechanic of old games. Do you keep going to a restaurant with crappy food because they have a nice floor plan?

And at the end of the day I was trying to make a feature request (as is the forum group) to the dev of the game not argue against common sense with an OG xcom fanboi. If you enjoy actual strategy maybe you should consider what I've said rather than look for one sentence each post to pick apart.

[erutan]

@max - you wouldn't know where every crate is etc, but you'd have a general idea of "building here" "UFO there". It'd be interesting to have a two tier fog of war where instead of blackness you had vague outlines/representations of quick recon that got filled in, but that's probably not realistic for this project.

@orange Each has their pro and con - two tier is a bit more uncertain/scary/conservative "tactical", grey gives you a better understanding of the map and lets you plan ahead "strategic". You prefer one, others prefer another.

I'd lay off the giant capslock text and thinking you're the only one that enjoys "actual strategy", which it seems you feel the lead developer of this game doesn't do since he responded negatively to your request and must be an "OG xcom fanboi" as well.

[Gorlom]

Your objective is generally to eliminate the opfor on the map not get your doods to the space ship,

One of the victory conditions is to hold the enemy ship for 5 turns.

Do you play king of the hill with a blind fold on? No, you GENERALLY know where the hill is.

I admitt I missed the meaning of that generally. Either way, I still think the secondary victory condition negates your objection to my initial point of making the map smaller.

You keep trying to defend an old strategy breaking mechanic of old games. Do you keep going to a restaurant with crappy food because they have a nice floor plan?

I don't think it breaks strategic gameplay. It just makes it different and in my opinion more fun. Please you should really respect that other people have different opinions than you.

And at the end of the day I was trying to make a feature request (as is the forum group) to the dev of the game not argue against common sense with an OG xcom fanboi. If you enjoy actual strategy maybe you should consider what I've said rather than look for one sentence each post to pick apart.

You are free to do that ofc. I'm not trying to stop you, but rather todiscuss with you. Part of that is to point out where we disagree so that I might get a better picture of what you are thinking.

I must have the right to bring forth my opinion just as you have right to bring forth yours, right? You are getting increasingly hostile and I would like to apologize if I have stepped on some toe or something. Any chance we could start over?

[Max_Caine]

Orangehat44, chill out, dude. There's no need to shout. You're coming across as wigging out because someone is disagreeing with you.

[Chris]

Orangehat - the alternatives have been considered, believe me (this point is raised regularly on the forums). Each does have their pros and cons but in the end we went for the full black covering because in my opinion it produces the most tense atmosphere - even though it is unrealistic.

Most obviously, you'd know exactly where the crash site at the start of every mission, which I think spoils the surprise somewhat.

[Betuor]

I do like having to search the map trying to find the exact location of the ufo. You might do a flyby to determine where the ufo is, but you might not fly to close for risk of being shot at. You also land a distance away to have a clear LZ.Also, the maps arn't that huge that it hides the ufo. You do know the general area it is in. Also, I'd say the black is to hide the aliens laying in ambush awaiting your approach. Also, things look different in the air than they do on the ground. Those are just my opinions though, don't shoot me!

[thothkins]

I like to look at each mission in a slightly abstract way. So, each battlescape actually defines an incursion into a larger area. It explains the use of tactical strikes against terror missions for example. So, the Chinook lands in the general area of the UFO and not really a couple of blocks away. It helps me get past the fog of war a little more easily anyway

Other thoughts:

The aliens disrupt satellite imagery

Foo Fighter reports from WWII report electronic disruption, so interceptor flyovers are not risked

Risks form the aliens themselves would possibly put the Chinook at risk, so no flyovers form that either.

Betuor already suggested the risk of craft weapons still being active on the UFOs

Anyway, I'd have to agree that the FOW adds a lot of tension to the game. Tha;ts not to say, it couldn't be tense with somethign different but I think that it would paly different tactically. For example, I'd be inching my Xenonauts along cover constantly if the alien LOS was improved without a FOW in place.

[Commissar Pancakes]

The aliens disrupt satellite imagery

Heck, they might've just nipped the issue in the bud and blew up those satellites.

And Orangehat, please. Keep it clean. We'd rather not have the terms "OG Xcom fanboi" be thrown around (there's a reason why I look upon this forum with respect and admiration), especially when we're all simply discussing one another's opinions. You're more of the pre-mission-planning-and-tactics play style while Gorlom's simply more of the advance-slowly-by-cover. You have your way of having fun. As does he.

All it basically breaks down to is differing points of view.

[Gorlom]

I'm so going to end up on orangehat44's ignore list... aren't I?

[thothkins]

Heck, they might've just nipped the issue in the bud and blew up those satellites.

They can't do that. They're using them to coordinate a countdown before launching an attack.

[Commissar Pancakes]

Ah...so then the best way to simply defeat the alien threat is to simply muck about the time zone differences, casting the entire invasion force into a state of hysteria since they have no idea when to attack (or attack in small, manageable waves).

[thothkins]

Sgt thothkins: We have to attack now! We don;t have much time to save the Earth!

Csr Pancakes: Ah, time >stretch & yawn<

Sgt thothkins: What?! This is a hell of atime to go all Doctor Who on me

Csr Pancakes: Relax Sgt. We have plenty of time.

Sgt thothkins: They're about to pour out of that Battleship and attack London!

Csr Pancakes:Not while they have to reset their watches.

Sgt thothkins:Oh right... that will teach them to keep raiding Switzerland.

Csr Pancakes: Then they have to figure out the timers on their VCRs. We have days and days Sgt.