Why is development so slow?

[Vivisector 9999]

Adding my voice to the chorus. I'd rather the game be released when it's DONE, even if it takes longer than Chris originally planned. Much better than having him release a broken game "on time" and slapping the loyal supporters with another Sword Of The Stars 2-style debacle.

[StellarRat]

Adding my voice to the chorus. I'd rather the game be released when it's DONE, even if it takes longer than Chris originally planned. Much better than having him release a broken game "on time" and slapping the loyal supporters with another Sword Of The Stars 2-style debacle.

You know I read the "explanation" about SOTS 2 and it makes no sense to me. They "accidently" released a beta??? That makes no sense. Even if it was true why didn't they just stop the sales immediately?? Does anyone really understand what happened? All I know is it was a stupid, stupid, move...they have former customers that will NEVER come back now and they'll never sell as many copies of SOTS 2 as they could have because of all the horrible reviews that are out there, even if it's patched to perfection now.

[Harmonica]

Spoiler: It's not patched to perfection

[TrashMan]

You know I read the "explanation" about SOTS 2 and it makes no sense to me. They "accidently" released a beta??? That makes no sense. Even if it was true why didn't they just stop the sales immediately?? Does anyone really understand what happened? All I know is it was a stupid, stupid, move...they have former customers that will NEVER come back now and they'll never sell as many copies of SOTS 2 as they could have because of all the horrible reviews that are out there, even if it's patched to perfection now.

Not really.

The devs wouldn't go into it, but from little I could gather from Mecrons posts, something happened that caused them to be left with a "blown-apart code base".

Maybe some disaster befell their backups. It's strange because the beta they showed at one of the events was BETER than the game at release. It's almost as if they had to grab some earlier code base or something.

That, or Paradox presssured them to release early. Wouldn't surprise me, since SOTS2 is a big project an Kerberos a small studio.

Oh, and I'm playng SOTS2 as we speak.

Runs like a charm. Not a single problem with it.

[tiggerwof]

OP here. Some clarification = I'm not a troll, not a kid (college educated 30+), not trying to flame or offend. But I don't blindly believe what people say or what they naively hope will happen, actions are the only dependable measure. I do agree that my original title and tone was not the most diplomatic.

The reason for the post was three-fold. I was very disappointed with EU and needed a better XCOM fix, I hold people accountable for their "promises" (October Xeno Beta never even came close to happening), and I have been let down on almost every pre-order from the indy/defunct Beyond Protocol to other AAA games (SWTOR, etc).

I will gladly pay full price for a good game, but if I gave you $30 today or even $300, it wouldn't move the development dial at all. What is discouraging is that the free press Xeno received this year is basically forgotten by the casual or semi-hardcore player that can't buy the game until...? You will need significant sales AFTER launch to offset costs and try to turn a profit...unless there will be no support/updates. How will marketing be implemented and paid for? How many unit sales will equal success?

Yes the game needs to function well and be as close to done as possible to avoid a bad launch. But there is also a very good reason why business people set reachable goals and do everything possible to meet deadlines without excuses. I just hope Xeno private investors are still satisfied with the monthly "soon" mantra. I doubt this response inspires the developer or many of the pre-order customers but I do have some valid points and questions.

[thothkins]

hey tiggerwof,

I'd ignore anything with a date on it for nearly any game, until it's about to ship. For this game, look at the development logs and similar threads. They will give you satisfaction that "actions are the only dependable measures." At least, it will show you what actions have been taken. So ignore dates, and read dev logs.

Sure, someone taking the occasional casual glance, sees some dates and wonders what is going on. I get that. Kickstarter and the EU2012 releases were major things this year. With a bit of luck a certain alien hive could tie it into the colonial marines release in Q1

I don't think the buzz has been forgotten. I think it's gotten the word about Xenonauts out there. Further announcements are going to strike a chord with all the folks that heard about it through those events. Many have joined the forums already and even Julian Gollop gave the game a mention. People can play the demo. People paying some pennies get each release build, which is great. So there are plenty of ways for people to keep up with what's going on.

"You will need significant sales AFTER launch to offset costs and try to turn a profit...unless there will be no support/updates. How will marketing be implemented and paid for? How many unit sales will equal success?"

Only Chris has those figures, so anything beyond that is into the realms of speculation. Speculative release dates on one side/ speculative comments about financial viability on the other.

But, there's no point releasing a game that doesn't function. You say that yourself. I'm not aware of a "monthly soon" mantra. We've been told what the next steps are likely to be, and that's good to know. Hopefully, the devs won't stop it becuase a few posters then hold a gun to their heads (metaphorically, I hope) As above, there are plenty of ways to be involved to sate that EU thirst.

" I doubt this response inspires the developer or many of the pre-order customers but I do have some valid points and questions. "

Hopefully this doesn't sound harsh, but I don't think it's going to bother anyone. I agree with the point that it can look like a let down when a hopeful release date comes and goes. Solution: don't make development announcements date specific. ta da.

I disagree with the EU/ Free press exposure. I think Xenonauts did fairly well out of that. I think that this will pay off later in development too, as world of mouth is already out there. Was it perfect? Nope. Did it have to be? Nope.

I see nothing to suggest the game isn't coming. On one hand there's criticism for the AAA EU2012 release, with huge resources only to take a shot at the tardiness of the indy dev team, without seemingly reading beyond a couple of "we hope" dates. The other game UFO:ET2 has been put back yet again, and I always thought that was much further down the track than Xenonauts. Just to provide some perspective.

tiggerwof: son, is the garbage out yet?

son: I'll just about to do it dad. It's only 7:00

tiggerwof: But you said you would do it by 6:50! You cannot meet your promises! Begone, son of mine! you are banished!

[Snozy]

I feel your pain but not enough to say filth to devs. im disappointed in the new xcom too, so its good the beta missed the date. they are taking time and passion making this and not rushing to keep some deadline just like the new xcom or many games we see do rushing. this means we have a better chance to have a superier X-Com remake.

So you must love games that come out rushed like Dead Island because they keep the deadline the p[ublishers p[romsie. by the way i love DI game becuase of grate mods but you can tell its rushed. that was the last game i pre-ordered. never again.

Now that you bought the game you need to wait or be like me dont pre-order games and wait. lucky i have friends who share my tastes for yummy good games so i play Xenonauts and the like with them hehehehe. moneyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[mace6442]

I have crunched the numbers and I can confirm that the game will be released exactly when its ready.

Hope that clears things up.

[centiles]

We simply cannot know how busy/lazy Chris is What I know from software developing (well, my experience is developing of Perl modules for something) and also from what I feel about this project - I think he is very busy - AND delays are just normal. I'm pretty confident to see a good and playable Xenonauts in 2013. Currently it has too many crashes.

[StellarRat]

tiggerwof - Chris has been pretty careful to not "promise" any dates. Most of the progress reports, etc, that he posts say, "We hope to" or "our plan is" he doesn't make solid date committments. That's a good thing in my book. It means he realizes that it's very difficult to plan on something being completed on a certain date. Software development isn't like pouring concrete. It's VERY hard to pin down when something will be finished. If you force something out you end up with bugs and incomplete implementation. I'd much rather have Chris be loose on his estimates then release garbage just because he is trying to meet some unnecessary deadline. Besides, the progress since I've started following Xenonauts has been very good. I'm not disappointed at all.

Edited December 11, 2012 by StellarRat

[erutan]

A beta being two months late is not a cause for worry - again for the funding and nearly entirely part time staff for a game of this scale development has been going at a pretty amazing pace. Yes people in software miss deadlines - this is the norm rather than the exception. Plus are some reasons that have been communicated:

1) redoing the way soldiers interact with UFOs

2) refocusing on level design and taking a longer look at flow on tactical maps

3) rewriting the level editor per 2

4) wanting to have the beta be a bit more polished than originally intended (yay forum ppl will want it vs. oh shit press will be writing about this / large influx of new users

5) new UI

If it had been months with no update, or the beta was 8 months late I'd be worried, but at this point, no.

[ls35a]

I'm guessing (and this is purely a guess, nothing more) we may see a version 1.0 by Christmas of 2013.

And the game will be polished and bug free a year after that.

I can wait.

[thothkins]

not even worth speculating about a date for me. Happy with the progress and delighted with the communications. I'd hate to see any weight of (possibly not very realistic or informed) expectation affect the communication and interaction on the forums.

look thothkins, shiny base defence module pictures...look... >thothkins wanders off after the shiny things, drooling slightly (which is better than usual)<

[Mew]

Frankly, I am much more satisfied with dev logs than with deadlines.

Having worked in the industry on occasion and having been thoroughly disatisfied with the horror that is deadlines, I find that Chris releasing dev logs give a much better idea of how close the game is to completion and actually reveal *why* the game is not being released.

A "oh dear, we must redo/rework that point" log entry is far more informative to me than a 'deadline extended by 8 months for no reason' entry.

The only really sore point I see is that there is no checklist showing how close to completion he is. But this is deliberate, from what I understand ; he wants many features to remain secret. So he mention his progress but not what is the 100% state shooting for. This make for better surprises and avoid the SSBB dev log disaster but it also remove the reference for how close to completion the game may truly be.

As it stand, as long as he can give consistent logs (showing he hasn't dropped/stalled the project), I will be happy.

[StellarRat]

Frankly, I am much more satisfied with dev logs than with deadlines.

Having worked in the industry on occasion and having been thoroughly disatisfied with the horror that is deadlines, I find that Chris releasing dev logs give a much better idea of how close the game is to completion and actually reveal *why* the game is not being released.

A "oh dear, we must redo/rework that point" log entry is far more informative to me than a 'deadline extended by 8 months for no reason' entry.

The only really sore point I see is that there is no checklist showing how close to completion he is. But this is deliberate, from what I understand ; he wants many features to remain secret. So he mention his progress but not what is the 100% state shooting for. This make for better surprises and avoid the SSBB dev log disaster but it also remove the reference for how close to completion the game may truly be.

As it stand, as long as he can give consistent logs (showing he hasn't dropped/stalled the project), I will be happy.

Giovanni: Yeah. The coversheet. I know, I know. Uh, Bill talked to me about it.

Chris: Yeah. Did you get that memo?

Giovanni: Yeah. I got the memo. And I understand the policy. And the problem is just that I forgot the one time. And I've already taken care of it so it's not even really a problem anymore.

Chris: Ah! Yeah. It's just we're putting new coversheets on all the TPS reports before they go out now. So if you could go ahead and try to remember to do that from now on, that'd be great. All right!

[thothkins]

excellent work on bugging the Goldhawk dev team StellarRat. Think of the fun we'll have while we keep it to ourselv....you posted a transcript where?!

D'Oh!