Gorlom Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 I'd like to defend the OP a little bit while I can agree some of the answers has been over the top. have you looked at the other posts he (OP) has made on the forum? He is trying to get angry respones out of people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooey Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 (edited) He is trying to get angry respones out of people. That's the very definition of trolling... I havn't read the terms and conditions of kickstarter though. If a project falls flat on its face and there is no end product, do the backers get their money back? Maybe that's what he is worried about - the risk element. If they do then there is no risk involved and you can't really complain. By the nature of it the money will have already been spent though, so I guess there are no guarentees. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Edited October 22, 2012 by ooey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Pancakes Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I do believe that Kickstarter rewards are part of a contract that the developer must sign with the guys who run the site. Especially since Kickstarter earnings are also taxed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooey Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 If I was him, I wouldn't really worry - to me, this is one project that looks like it has gone past the point of no return and will be competed to a high standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElTee Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I do believe that Kickstarter rewards are part of a contract that the developer must sign with the guys who run the site.Especially since Kickstarter earnings are also taxed. Not really. Game devs are under no obligation to 'refund' people, which is why you have to be smart if you ever want to fund a kickstarter project, since they can literally just run away with the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrashMan Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Why is development so slow? Because.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 (edited) Yes, he spent money for a product that he was promised to in the future, and is just fretting over receiving said product. I havn't read the terms and conditions of kickstarter though. If a project falls flat on its face and there is no end product, do the backers get their money back? Maybe that's what he is worried about - the risk element. If I was him, I wouldn't really worry - to me, this is one project that looks like it has gone past the point of no return and will be competed to a high standard. where are you guys reading that he is a kickstarter backer? (or are you just assuming since the last news on kickstarter is just like the last news on the Xenonauts news page: from August) The only mention I can find in his posts are that he has yet to even pay for this game.. I have a request for the Xenonauts creators...just finish the darn game and get it out the door already. I'm not a fan of pre-orders (burnt twice). But I will buy your game IF you release it before January 2013...after that I'm giving up hope of a proper remake. Edited October 22, 2012 by Gorlom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Par'Gellen Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Why is development so slow?Because.... Eerily fitting lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooey Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 where are you guys reading that he is a kickstarter backer? (or are you just assuming since the last news on kickstarter is just like the last news on the Xenonauts news page: from August)The only mention I can find in his posts are that he has yet to even pay for this game.. Well, I think thats rather childish of tiggerwof then. He has nothing to worry about as he's committed to nothing. And he's going to be dissapointed because xen surly isn't going to be released until next summer at the earliest, is it? There's still a lot to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vivoune Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 while I can agree some of the answers has been over the top. have you looked at the other posts he (OP) has made on the forum? He is trying to get angry response out of people. I haven't read everything no so you must be right but I'm not judging anyone, I'm just saying that when a kid IRL comes to you with silly questions or inappropriate requests you don't send the child off with insults for his lack of common sense. You educate him. If the OP is truly just a troll, well I don't understand why it got fed for 6 yummy pages. Personally to be on topic, I just longer for the game's to go gold just as much as I want it to be released when it's ready and not a second before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I haven't read everything no so you must be right but I'm not judging anyone, I'm just saying that when a kid IRL comes to you with silly questions or inappropriate requests you don't send the child off with insults for his lack of common sense. You educate him. If the OP is truly just a troll, well I don't understand why it got fed for 6 yummy pages. Personally to be on topic, I just longer for the game's to go gold just as much as I want it to be released when it's ready and not a second before. Maybe someone figured he'd get full (satisfied) and not troll as long as the thread is kept alive? I dunno. I thought it was over halfway down the first page. He hasn't even posted since I told him to go play some other game while waiting for this one to be released. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Par'Gellen Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I think the term for this kind of trolling is "hit and run". Judging by his other comments he seems to fire off things that will rile people up then vanish from the conversation after a post or two. These kinds of trolls are rarer than your typical internet lunatic who usually needs to see and be involved in the ruckus they've created. Instead these types are content to just sit back and imagine the flaming hate that is flying around because of what they did. Whether or not this actually happens is usually irrelevant to them. They feed themselves with their own imagination so feeding them or not in the thread doesn't usually matter. Oddly the Eve Online forums seem to be a magnet for these types of trolls. I'm a member of dozens of forums (some I keep up with regularly like this one, others not so much) and have to say I've rarely seen the kind of insanity that pvp internet spaceships can bring out in people. It really should be the focus of an official psychological study! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmonica Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 (edited) It's only a troll if people react to it and nobody really did that. Everyone understood immediately that he had the wrong attitude. I think there's a valid discussion to be had around managing expectations with games development, since it's always something that has been an issue for many projects over the decades games have existed. They're just fundamentally unlike most other creative projects and estimating arrival times seems to be more of an art than a science. Obviously this is why many devs don't do their announce until they are well on the way towards 'going gold' and they have their release route map. Indie developers have more of a luxury with how and when they tell people about their game, the 'slow burn' of an early announce can be great alongside test releases, for example. For commercial games development, early announces with no prospect of gamers actually playing the games in the mean time are a bit of a curse. They're also used pretty manipulatively by many studios to start their promotional hype off very cheaply via word of mouth, without any intention of fostering the community's interest that early. Then you have the middle ground of the 'faux-beta' for some games, released relatively near to release but featuring often a decent chunk of gameplay - even if the dev has no intention of bearing in mind community suggestions, and the game is pretty much developed by that point. It's definitely a difficult decision and I don't really envy people who are in that decision process (developing myself, but announcing is a long way off). In this era, perhaps, with people absolutely willing to pay early to support on-going development and alpha releases such as with Xenonauts, maybe there's a chance to move beyond the obsession with release dates. After all, when are games ever finished? After release they might recieve further patches or updates or additions. Even after the developer moves on from the project the fans will probably take over the curating of the games development. They're pretty organic things. Just look at games like Transport Tycoon which didn't really see any after-release development from Chris Sawyer but is currently reimagined as OpenTTD featuring a vaster and richer feature set, and a great stable multiplayer. I think that there's an entitlement problem seen with some early backers of projects, but at the same time, since the Kickstarter method is relatively young (and only a few of the games with larger funds have actually arrived), this is understandable. People don't know what they're actually paying for. It's always surprising how little research people do before handing over their money, but if you are aware that you're funding ongoing development of an independent title, then how can you begrudge developers taking their time? It's their baby, after all. Edited October 22, 2012 by Harmonica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 (edited) I think there's a valid discussion to be had around managing expectations with games development, since it's always something that has been any issue for many projects over the decades games have existed. They're just fundamentally unlike most other creative projects and estimating arrival times seems to be more of an art than a science. And it's also something that doesn't go down to favourable if studios massively mis-estimate, or repeatedly mis-estimate, the release date. Obviously this is why many devs don't do their announce until they are well on the way towards 'going gold' and they have their route map. Indie developers have more of a luxury with how and when they tell people about their game, the 'slow burn' of an early announce can be great alongside test releases, for example. It's definitely a difficult decision and I don't really envy people who are in that decision process (developing myself, but announcing is a long way off).Estimating completion time for any medium to large software project is VERY difficult. Larger companies can throw more resources at a project if there is a definite deadline to make, but smaller companies usually don't have that luxury. Larger companies also tend to have experts on certain subjects that help them solve technical problems faster than a small company can. I personally have never been in a large development effort that finished exactly on time. Usually there are simply too many unforeseen problems and critical processes that don't get into the initial design or requirements that throw the already nebulous estimates even further off. Then you've got scope creep (this one can be controlled by a good project manager.) Games in particular also have to run on many different platforms that adds further complication.One of my programming instructors many years ago told the class once, "QUALITY, COST or DEVELOPMENT TIME I can give you any ONE of them at the expense of one of the other two." I've always remembered that and it's never been wrong. Chris has TIME and QUALITY to work with, but since he is on a set budget (Kickstarter & Pre-orders) he has to keep the cost to a set amount. Personally, I'd rather he sacrifice TIME and have a QUALITY game instead of releasing a POS to meet the clamors of a few people to get it out. Edited October 22, 2012 by StellarRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooey Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 It's only a troll if people react to it and nobody really did that. Everyone understood immediately that he had the wrong attitude. This is true. Maybe he's just a young lad who didn't think about what he was saying before he said it. Maybe not. His comments reminded me so much of the 12-or-so year olds you find on cod who blaspheme you for being on his side when you loose. With regards to the release of a game, the best I have ever seen was when Rare released Goldeneye on the N64 - it was like "WOW- where did this come from?". There was no hype or anything leading up to it. Of course kickstarter projects don't have the mega-backing that such games have, and they need the publicity and advanced support to get anywhere. If you pay into a kickstarter, you have to be aware that you may need to wait a good while; I think Chris has always made this clear - so comments like "I want it NOW!" do annoy (especially if he hasn't even pre-ordered). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmonica Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 One of my programming instructors many years ago told the class once, "QUALITY, COST or DEVELOPMENT TIME I can give you any ONE of them at the expense of one of the other two." I've always remembered that and it's never been wrong. Chris has TIME and QUALITY to work with, but since he is on a set budget (Kickstarter & Pre-orders) he has to keep the cost to a set amount. Personally, I'd rather he sacrifice TIME and have a QUALITY game instead of releasing a POS to meet the clamors of a few people to get it out. That's a good adage. And I suppose it suggests that the sensible thing is to aim for quality and sod the rest Aka done when it's done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooey Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Well you've got to ask yourself one question - do you want a game that is so good you will remember/play it for years to come (like the original xcom), or one that was cobbled together just to get a few bob (the new 50th anniversary James Bond mess)? Maybe the next person to complain like this should just be told... Meh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterArmadillo Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 This sort of impatience makes me giggle, any software developer wants to produce the end product as quickly as possible while taking time to make the product appealing, software development is a nasty process of time and money with more time costs more money but with less time makes less money and the balance lays in the heart of of its creators. Quote: The more you demand now the less you will get in the end (Armadillo 2012) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal Hicks Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I'm gonna nuke this bitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Par'Gellen Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I'm gonna nuke this bitch From orbit? It's the only way to be sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patroclus Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Estimating completion time for any medium to large software project is VERY difficult. Larger companies can throw more resources at a project if there is a definite deadline to make, but smaller companies usually don't have that luxury. Larger companies also tend to have experts on certain subjects that help them solve technical problems faster than a small company can. I personally have never been in a large development effort that finished exactly on time. Usually there are simply too many unforeseen problems and critical processes that don't get into the initial design or requirements that throw the already nebulous estimates even further off. Then you've got scope creep (this one can be controlled by a good project manager.) Games in particular also have to run on many different platforms that adds further complication.One of my programming instructors many years ago told the class once, "QUALITY, COST or DEVELOPMENT TIME I can give you any ONE of them at the expense of one of the other two." I've always remembered that and it's never been wrong. Chris has TIME and QUALITY to work with, but since he is on a set budget (Kickstarter & Pre-orders) he has to keep the cost to a set amount. Personally, I'd rather he sacrifice TIME and have a QUALITY game instead of releasing a POS to meet the clamors of a few people to get it out. That's a good adage. And I suppose it suggests that the sensible thing is to aim for quality and sod the rest Aka done when it's done. this sounds like it is based on the even older production management adage of, "fast, cheap, or good. Pick any two." I prefer quality and depth to a product and it looks like xenonauts will deliver both so I have more patience for this project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 this sounds like it is based on the even older production management adage of, "fast, cheap, or good. Pick any two."It sure does...well now I know my professor was not an original thinker! LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raakku Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 What is a post like that ever going to achieve, even if we were developing the game too slowly? Do you think that after reading a forum post I'll magically flip a switch and double the speed of development? I think chief O'Brien had that kind of switch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russonc Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 What is a post like that ever going to achieve, even if we were developing the game too slowly? Do you think that after reading a forum post I'll magically flip a switch and double the speed of development? I didn't understand the point of this thread originally I guess.....but now....Chris (and company), could you please go ahead and finish this so it will be out on my birthday...that would be nice The fun of being able to watch the development of this project, play some fun little battles in the meantime and to occasionally interact in a nice/friendly community (most of the time) is well worth the price of admission! Heck, I've already got my money's worth and just continue to look forward to what's coming next. (Plus I happen to be enjoying "that other game that just came out" for the time being...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thothkins Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 totally with Russonc. Watching the builds come out and play the changes has been well worth the pennies. In times to come we'll look back at this time on the forums with fond nostalgia.* *except for the posts of XXXX**, who I hated. ** fill in name of poster you despised as appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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