Overdamage

[XenoMask]

Or at least burn them after few turns.

[Belmakor]

If the alien is in armour then that could hold their body together enough (and dead enough) that it is still recoverable making heavier weapon still viable against tougher foes.

A weapon capable of firing plasma should still exist after an earthly type explosion, perhaps unusable but with the ammo able to be retrieved.

[anotherdevil]

I think this should be in, but as Gazz said it still has a few quirks to be ironed out.

Also if it does get put in, it should be damn clear why that alien was not recovered and there was no equipment left behind. If you're using your rocket launchers to kill all of the deadliest aliens, but never recovering any corpses, you might just think they self destruct or something. Just a tutorial tooltip first time you equip the rocket launcher, or a small disclaimer on the item saying "may destroy recoverable items and corpses"

[Dix]

I really like this idea, though I agree it would be good if it also depends on the enemy. EG, Alien robots/armoured units can be disabled by a direct rocket hit, but not always destroyed, while a squishy organic gets vaporised.

Sensitive (ie, fragile) alien kit also being destroyed makes sense, but I have one suggestion there. Given this is Alien Junk , and therefore still valuable & unique on Earth:

-Anything destroyed in a mission (weapons, ships that are blown up, etc) can be collected at the end as Salvage.

-This can then be sold to funding nations for a smaller profit than intact kit, and/or it can be reclaimed for raw materials, maybe after the apropriate reclamation tech is researched. Perhaps reducing the cost of construction?

Thoughts?

Edited September 28, 2012 by Dix

[anotherdevil]

I like that train of thought, good on you =]

[Gauddlike]

At the moment anything you can't use, like alien weapons, is automatically sold.

It doesn't make a lot of sense that by damaging the gear you now have a use for it.

If that was going to be the case then I would argue that you should keep everything and break it down into components you can use.

Rather than selling 5 alien weapons at the end of a mission you instead get awarded 5 alien alloys, 5 Alenium, or some combination.

I still prefer the idea that anything you recover that you can't use gets sent to the nation who's territory you are operating in and increase your mission score.

[anotherdevil]

That's a good point. And if you need the money you can then go into the base inventory and sell the components

[Dix]

It doesn't make a lot of sense that by damaging the gear you now have a use for it.

True, hence the suggestion for apropriate reclamation tech before it becomes useful to you. Selling it to the funding nations at the end of the mission (for less benefit than intact but currently unusuable kit) is also fine - it just seems odd that you would simply write off anything alien, under the circumstances.

[Gauddlike]

You are writing off gear that has been too badly damaged to be of use for research or whatever else the funders want it for.

It makes more sense if you use the reputation reward system rather than cash rewards as well.

Send someone a big crate of alien weapons and they will think you are great.

Send them a crate of bent metal and singed components with holes in everything and they will be disappointed.

The overdamage system proposed is a way to reward players who don't blast everything alien back into space using C4 and rocket launchers.

If you still get rewarded then the system is less effective.

You may also find it would be more useful to blow everything up because the penalty (extra salvaged alloys or Alenium, faster production or whatever) is worth more to you than the cash reward from the funders for being careful.

That goes against the reasoning behind the system.

[vaultdweller]

Looted technology (beyond being researchable) increases score, score increases funding - but at a controlled pace. That makes sense for a government-funded organisation. Oh, and makes it harder for the player to game the system. =).

It also lets the player plan ahead without depending on "random drops".

I like this idea.

Also, I agree with everyone who says that overdamage and destroyed gear/corpses is a good idea, but only for high-explosive, area-blast type weapons. I wouldn't apply it to more targeted weapons (be they ballistic machine guns or plasma sniper rifles).

[steelwarrior]

agreed with the idea of having overdamage - why not just sell a destroyed one for lesser money and no research possible - so it is a real punishment for players to blast everything...

overdamage should only be done by rocket launchers, C4, other high explosive and other area weapons - with grenades there could be a random factor what happens like 60% chance overdamage 40% no overdamage...

[TrashMan]

XCOM 1 had the same problem in a different way. You would produce lasers (or whatever) for selling and the actual funding became optional.

In both cases, the funding system stopped being a gameplay element. Why bother designing it in the first place? Go JA2 and have a bunch of thugs live off the land and sell the loot...

If you have "official" funding in the game, it has to be important. No ifs or buts.

Turning the Xenonauts into a large-scale black market op is totally out of character.

Instead of selling items on the black market, you could gift them to various nations to improve your standing.

And technicly, if Xenonauts isn't technicly part of any military, then you could sell those weapons..

The player would also care a lot more about protecting Earth and keeping the funding nations happy and less about the perfect looting strategy.

That's how it should be and the gameplay would reward that approach. Losing a soldier by skimping on grenade use while trying to maximise loot... should hurt the mission score!

Ignore a small landed UFO because there won't be worthwhile loot? Bad idea when it makes this country unhappy!

Reward "in character" tactics, not gamey ones! =)

Yes to this.

Altough for govenments, human life is cheap.

So your soldier dying to get a new plasma rifle for your scientists to study would be in their eyes a good thing.

[Gauddlike]

agreed with the idea of having overdamage - why not just sell a destroyed one for lesser money and no research possible - so it is a real punishment for players to blast everything...

overdamage should only be done by rocket launchers, C4, other high explosive and other area weapons - with grenades there could be a random factor what happens like 60% chance overdamage 40% no overdamage...

That ignores the relative damage of those weapons.

For example higher tier grenades may have significantly higher damage rating (but probably lower area of affect) than the basic rocket so why would it have a lower chance to damage the equipment it is sitting on when it detonates?

Might as well keep it simple and related to explosions in general.

[TrashMan]

I keep asking myself - why would hypervelocity weapons destroy equipment?

The aliens armor? Yeah, it would leave a nice hole.

If they hit the rifle the alien is holding, sure. But what are the chances of that actually happening?

Speaking of which:

http://what-if.xkcd.com/1/

Edited October 19, 2012 by TrashMan

[StellarRat]

I keep asking myself - why would hypervelocity weapons destroy equipment?

The aliens armor? Yeah, it would leave a nice hole.

If they hit the rifle the alien is holding, sure. But what are the chances of that actually happening?

Speaking of which:

http://what-if.xkcd.com/1/

If the weapons truly are "HYPER" velocity than hitting a target would be more like an explosion than an object just passing through another. Because of the amount of kinetic suddenly dumped into the target it would literally be blown up as if something had exploded on or in it. I could easily see any equipment they had being damaged/destroyed. Same thing with laser weapons. They don't make nice slices or burn holes through the target they literally cause an explosion wherever they hit due to the surface suddenly and violently vaporizing (that includes suddenly vaporized metal, flesh, plastic, etc...) A conventional explosion is really the sudden expansion of gas. You can achive the same result with anything that causes vaporization and rapid gas expansion.

[HWP]

If the weapons truly are "HYPER" velocity than hitting a target would be more like an explosion than an object just passing through another. Because of the amount of kinetic suddenly dumped into the target it would literally be blown up as if something had exploded on or in it.

Yes. OTOH, it would have to actually hit the equipment to destroy or damage it. A more accurate description of HV impact is a ball of liquid lead splashing fast into a pool of water.

Laser impact isn't quite explosive, significant sublimation degrades its further effectiveness severely. It has a lower ratio of gas formed to energy deposited than explosives do, and, more importantly, the rate of pressure increase is much lower. Effect on flesh would include a steam explosion, but that's not a detonation. On metal and such it's really quite close to the popularly imagined burning-cutting action, though more like arc cutting than just a clean slice.

What makes explosives blow things up is not as much gas volume as brisance, i.e. how fast the pressure rises, it has to be on the order of single to tens of microseconds to create a shock wave, while a laser has to deliver its energy over a thousand times or more that interval.

And then even an explosion will only destroy a weapon at far greater overpressure than it takes to destroy flesh.

[GoodGuyEddy]

If the weapons truly are "HYPER"

As i stated in another thread those aren't trully hyper. Everything has a hypervelocity rating in the game. The plasma projectiles, laser blasts, rifle & pistol rounds. I mean we all can agree that some makarov sidearm doesn't launch slugs at hypevelocity...velocity? It's just a stat that will help the game determine if the round penetrates things. Like glass, wood, not so wood alien armor(later game weapons)

[StellarRat]

Yes. OTOH, it would have to actually hit the equipment to destroy or damage it. A more accurate description of HV impact is a ball of liquid lead splashing fast into a pool of water.

Laser impact isn't quite explosive, significant sublimation degrades its further effectiveness severely. It has a lower ratio of gas formed to energy deposited than explosives do, and, more importantly, the rate of pressure increase is much lower. Effect on flesh would include a steam explosion, but that's not a detonation. On metal and such it's really quite close to the popularly imagined burning-cutting action, though more like arc cutting than just a clean slice.

What makes explosives blow things up is not as much gas volume as brisance, i.e. how fast the pressure rises, it has to be on the order of single to tens of microseconds to create a shock wave, while a laser has to deliver its energy over a thousand times or more that interval.

And then even an explosion will only destroy a weapon at far greater overpressure than it takes to destroy flesh.

Yes, but that really depends on the power and type of laser. Theorically, it could blow the target to bits or it could just burn it up or it could do just enough damage to kill it. We don't have a definite answer to that in game. I would agree with you in most cases. I assume the laser causes some surface vaporization and severe burns. Personally, being killed by a not too powerful laser would be a really bad way to go. I'd much rather be blown up by a rocket, etc... Edited October 22, 2012 by StellarRat

[svidangel]

Just want to add a +1 for the idea of destructable corpses/equipment in exchange for ah, bigger booms. This might also make it easier to plow through small UFOs later on when you don't feel the need to min-max your profits, or want to risk veteran soldiers breaching something when you are rolling in the dough. I'd also be fine with the highest tier weapons (plasma again I guess?) having a chance to destroy... more than other tiers.

If you choose not to use it, better chance at cash for min-maxing. By the time you have it though, you probably don't NEED the cash and might want to simply "killemall" as fast as possible. Plus (and I haven't gotten very far) I definitely think higher tiers should have a greater chance for a stray shot to destroy an alien power core/nav computer.

[irongamer]

Is adding a percent chance of loosing everything add too much? Or is adding another roll too complicated for no reason?

Example: Kill target with explosives, damage goes over limit, roll for a 2% chance of leaving something behind.

The percent chance would be based on the weapon inflicting the damage OR a combination of the weapon inflicting damage and the alien taking the damage OR how much over damage was applied.

Edited October 23, 2012 by irongamer

[HWP]

EU does it all wrong, the corpses are going to be the first thing to go, while guns last. They're built tough and not coincidentally.

Even a very high-tech weapon has to be built to take being accidentally smashed against a concrete pillar.

[Chollirem]

ya i agree, bodies would go before gear,

laser weapons would burn through the target, but its built to burn through body armor right? so would the weapon hold up?

plasma is the 4th state of matter...well nuff said it vaporizes everything

ballistic weapon and explosives...ya they can mess up a weapon

but the weapon needs to be hit for this in every case, as it stands the weapons are always destroyed when you shoot an alien.

Disarming an alien with a shot should do reduced damage to the guy whos weapon just got merked and only happen like 1% of the time

explosions get more...complicated...is the blows up guys body between the weapon and the blast? was the weapon between him and the blast...what about the gear on his back x.x

maybe just make it if it kills the target you have a 50% chance of wiping out his gear with explosives?

[Tacobandit]

ya i agree, bodies would go before gear,

laser weapons would burn through the target, but its built to burn through body armor right? so would the weapon hold up?

plasma is the 4th state of matter...well nuff said it vaporizes everything

ballistic weapon and explosives...ya they can mess up a weapon

but the weapon needs to be hit for this in every case, as it stands the weapons are always destroyed when you shoot an alien.

Disarming an alien with a shot should do reduced damage to the guy whos weapon just got merked and only happen like 1% of the time

explosions get more...complicated...is the blows up guys body between the weapon and the blast? was the weapon between him and the blast...what about the gear on his back x.x

maybe just make it if it kills the target you have a 50% chance of wiping out his gear with explosives?

Or we could just do it like it was in the OG, where only stuff on the ground can be destroyed by HE.